Episode 409 – Is TV Decluttering Helping or Harming?

Ingrid: A new decluttering program has landed on UK television, and we knew instantly we wanted to talk about it. In this episode, we dive into how to clean up for cash with Josie Gibson and her team focused on decluttering and valuing unwanted items. We unpack the first two episodes featuring Mel and Paul and Ashley and her mom, discussing what resonated, what frustrated us, and the wider messages these programs send about clutter.

As professional organizers ourselves and through our wider connections with APDO and the decluttering industry, this conversation comes from a p- place of genuine care for how clutter and overwhelm are represented on screen

Ingrid: Hello and welcome listeners. I'm Ingrid.

Lesley: And I am Lesley. Now, if you are here for the very first time today, or you've been listening in for ages, we want to say a huge thank you we have a little favour to ask.

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Well, Lesley, this is going to be an episode, I think, where a lot of soapboxes are gonna come out, right? Because we are going to discuss this new TV program, How to Clean Up for Cash. And I think I say it mildly when I think a lot of people have opinions about this program. maybe the better word is shock waves have gone through the professional organizing industry here in the UK after the program started airing, and I think we have quite a lot of things to say about this, don't we?

Lesley: Yeah, I think it's always the case. You know, when a new decluttering TV program comes on, we're always really excited to see and to hope and wish that clutter represented in the right way. So we, we go into it with high hopes, don't we? And it's fair to say that more often than not, there might be glimmers of what we want it- how to we, we would like it to be represented, but more often than not, it is more on the negative side than the positive. as professional organizers, we find it really I don't know, hurtful to the people who are

that, and that's what we don't like. It is also damaging often to our industry as professional organizers where we all care so deeply about the

Ingrid: Yeah

Lesley: with. And so lot of things that can be quite negative about programs.

But that said, what we do like is the fact that decluttering is on TV and awareness is being raised about the issues associated with it. it's just... And honestly, you and I, Ingrid, we've, we've tried, right? So we've been approached for TV and stuff like that for, many times, more often than not, we're like, "Oh, I'm not sure whether we can..."

'Cause we know what that is because it's TV. It's TV. It's entertainment is what it is. so do we want to sell ourselves to the devil for, to be on TV? No, we do not. Do you know what I mean? And so we have said no quite a few times 'cause we're like, why don't we... We, so we try and say, "Why don't you try and represent it in a different way?

You know, try and go into the emotions," because an emotional transformation can be so powerful. It's not just about physical transformations, somehow TV or the TV companies that are commissioning these programs into the, the kind of physical, you know, transformation. And so we get it. We completely get it.

We're not stupid. We know it's TV. we know that we kind of more often than not want to distance ourselves from it. And so it's an interesting one 'cause we, we would be really putting ourselves at risk, our reputation at risk, wouldn't we, Ingrid? And so we're just gonna carry on doing our thing here and not worry about TV stuff.

But anyway, let's talk about the program. called How to Clean Up for Cash. It's, it's a UK program. Not sure whether you can see it elsewhere in the world, really matter whether or not you can watch the program because the way, the way that we're gonna describe it, you're gonna get it because are loads of TV shows that are like this kind of thing. basically, we... Which makes me really sad 'cause Josie Gibson is the presenter, she's a kind of very, popular UK presenter on This Morning. She, she came up through, through reality TV, but she is lovely. She's so lovely, love Josie Gibson so much. I was a bit like, "No, Josie, don't do that," 'cause it kind of spoils it for me. have a professional organizer thrown into the mix as well, and we do have a valuer and an auctioneer there. So the, the idea is people have got clutter in their homes, collections, that kind of thing, vintage stuff, whatever you wanna call it, that is there gathering dust. It's detracting from the life that people wanna lead at home or potentially detracting from the life that all the family members want them to lead at home. And so they can go onto the show stuff, their clutter, any valuable stuff will get boxed up, and at the end of the show, they can decide whether or not they want to take the money that it's been valued for, and obviously let the clutter go, or keep the clutter. So that's the basic premise of the show, and it shows various things along the way. you might wonder, how does this happen, and how does the person whose clutter it is of get involved? So basically, they say to the person that they are going on a different reality TV show, which is about collections and kind of gathering treasures or something. I don't even know, they go out and they look for things to buy, which obviously they're really happy with because they love buying treasures, right? then they come back to the house later and get confronted by TV cameras, by somebody else in their family that has put them forward, and it's all a little bit of a kind of let's put it that way. So that's basically how the show goes. We wanna talk about episode one, right, which is with Mel and Paul.

Ingrid, what's, what's the sitch with M- Mel and Paul?

Ingrid: So basically Paul has been collecting items for a long time I think he only recently married Mel Mel really wants to move in with Paul or wants Paul to move in with her I'm not completely sure how what the deal is but they wanna move in together and Mel's But there's a house full of clutter I can't cope with it anymore This is crazy And she basically rings up the TV program and that probably all happens before and says I wanna nominate my partner Paul because he's got so much clutter and we can't move in together And of course she really loves him and she they've been married and she really wants to So basically that's the whole idea Now he Paul indeed has quite a collection of items including a massive collection of Bruce Springsteen para para How do you call it Paraphernalia Para

Lesley: yeah, memorabilia.

Ingrid: Memorabilia Memorabilia which is totally awesome He even has his own glass cupboard where his treasures are displayed So in the beginning Mel says We can't touch his Bruce Springsteen stuff because this is really important to him He's been collecting it for 40 years There's really cool signed things and all his his The crème de la crème of his collection are his Bruce Springsteen things But midway through the program they kinda go But what are we gonna do with all this Bruce Springsteen stuff And I It feels like Mel is put under pressure a little bit to go Oh go on then Box that up as well Value that up as well and box that up So you see through the program that they just basically start to go through So the So Josie is the presenter Dan is al also a bit of a valuer and then we've got the professional organizer and they kinda go let's divide this room in four bits so let's all find the treasures And then you see them pack up stuff and box things up And then midway through the program Josie then as a kind of ruse calls Paul to kinda go Hey Paul it's Josie here How are you doing with your with your treasure hunt And he's You see him walking through I think a vintage shop on Portobello Road in London and he's yeah like all happy with what he's finding because they're probably giving him a budget or something So she So she lies to him and you can see in her face that it really troubles her that she has to lie to him because she's pretending to be from this other show And bless him he comes home the next day opens the front door thinking he's gonna be like interviewed for this new program a about finding treasures walks into his living room and sees 40 or 50 or however many boxes it was with He just sees boxes He doesn't even realise yet that it's his stuff

Lesley: But

Ingrid: Oh

Lesley: it

Ingrid: work

Lesley: cash, it definitely says cash for clutter or

Ingrid: Yeah

Lesley: for clutter on the boxes.

Ingrid: Okay yeah

Lesley: but

Ingrid: on the boxes But you can see his brain is going Why does it say how to clean up for cash on the books and why are all these boxes in my living room I think he couldn't even wrap his head around it I think he was stunned and just looking around going What's going on here

Lesley: There are positive and neg- negative aspects to the show. So I think one, we talked about the fact that we're gonna talk about the things that we do like, as well as the things that we don't like, and I think it's fairly clear from our tone that we mostly don't like things. what we do like is the fact, and what we have to a- acknowledge is that Clutter affects relationships quite deeply, a lot, and it can feel as if there's no way out.

And so Mel came to this from a good place, which is that she can't see how their marriage can move forward this clutter being in the mix. And so she's like, "How am I gonna fix

probably like many of us in our community here listening today are like, "I've tried so many things. I've tried so many times.

I've asked him. I've..." All that. Like, "I've tried all of the different strategies that we can to try and make someone think differently about their clutter, but they haven't done it." So for her, it's probably a sort of last-ditch attempt to, to try

Ingrid: Yeah

Lesley: somebody to come and help, and it comes from a good place because in Mel's mind, what she wants, and which is probably, to be fair, is right, so is that the relationship matters more than the stuff. That's, that's the reality.

Ingrid: Yeah

Lesley: th- when push comes to

Ingrid: Yeah

Lesley: a relationship with a child, with a partner, with a parent, with a friend matters more than the stuff that you have in your house. But that doesn't mean to say that it's easy to let go of that stuff and that it needs careful And the most important thing is that it's not for those other people to make those decisions for you.

That has to come from you, otherwise you're gonna be on a hiding to nothing. So I love that part of it, and we... That really resonated with us, and it will absolutely resonate with you guys as well, which is I feel that as well. How many times would have we heard, "Can you tell me how to get my husband to get rid of his stuff?"

Basically, so

Ingrid: Yep

Lesley: got

Ingrid: Yep

Lesley: under control, but I've got my kids, I've got my husband, I've got my mum, my dad. They won't let go. I don't know what to do. And there's, it, it comes some people into deep distress as well. And so

get where she's coming from. It's the same as hoarding TV programs as well, which we see all the time, and lots of us love watching, is people are desperate.

They know that they do not have the budget sometimes to be able to have somebody help them in a compassionate way, hopefully, to let go of their stuff. So it's like, I have no choice. My hands are tied, and I've got a TV company saying that they're gonna come in and help me, and ultimately, I'm gonna get through this stuff, and I've got a chance for a fresh life. So I completely get that sometimes you might think, need a third party involved." The diffic- difficulty with this program is that he wasn't making that decision. So most of the hoarding TV

Ingrid: Yeah

Lesley: or other programs, are... You're... Ultimately, you're making that decision yourself. Like, "Okay, I'm gonna give this a go." Doesn't mean to say it's any easier and doesn't mean to say that we agree with the process that much 'cause it's still TV and it's still entertainment, but ultimately, you have been involved in some way in making the decision. Paul, on the other hand not been involved in that decision-making.

The poor guy's been duped completely. He's been sent out. He-

Ingrid: Yeah

Lesley: as Larry with his treasure hunt and spending his money. Of course he is, 'cause that- that's where he is in his happy place. Getting more stuff is the reality. Then he comes back. The guy, the blood drains from his face, doesn't it, Ingrid?

He's like, "Oh my God, what, what..." Have you... All he can think is all of his stuff is gone. guy is

isn't he, Ingrid?

Ingrid: Yeah Yeah And the f and of course then he turns around and the second thing he's Where's all my Bruce Springsteen stuff Because the cupboards are empty like the prime of his collection And he's Where's it gone And they go Oh we boxed it all up It's all in here We valued it and it's worth Whatever how much money it was 8,000 pounds or 12,000 pounds or whatever it was And then they force him to m make a decision there and then And yes we know it's television It might be that it was filmed five times and he's had time to think about it we don't see that We know that probably happens behind the scenes But they basically go we've basically boxed it all up We valued it It's worth let's just say 8,000 pounds Are you gonna take the cash or are you gonna keep the clutter Basically are you gonna l I'm gonna leave you here with 32 boxes all packed up that you then have to sort out again yourself or we're gonna load it all up in a truck take it away and give you eight grand That And you can just see the man just go What is going on here

Lesley: Exactly. And I think, I think, so the human side of it is really hard to watch, isn't it, Ingrid? Now, but the logistical side of it, again, the things that are positive about this is that every single item at that moment in time, the, the, the missing piece is Paul because of his stuff. But if you look at it, the professional organizer, the valuer, and Josie in her way as presenter, are looking through each and every item in that room or that house full of stuff and evaluating everything as it... You know, they're looking at it from a cash perspective really. But, you know, you could argue that one could look at that through a sentimental lens or whatever that might be. But you have the opportunity to see beyond the collection because that's the thing. We talk about this all the time with sentimental stuff, don't we?

It's like, so that, that room to Paul no doubt would've been, "Don't touch that room. That's my collection stuff," right?

sees that as a whole and not as individual

Now, if Paul had the opportunity to go through those things in a rational, calm, logistical way with somebody who was compassionate and understands his deep-seated connection to those things, he may have been able to come to a conclusion differently, which is what we typically do as professional organizers.

We don't just box something up and put a financial value on it because life is more than financial values. It's sentiments and values and memories and stories and all of that good stuff. But there's also, we have to say as professional organizers, there's al- there's also a load of actual clutter in the mix.

Ingrid: Yeah

Lesley: until you can break it down and until you have somebody with you who understands the way to break that down, you can't go there. And so that's... So there is good in there because it explains the process a little bit of trying to break down a collection. There is good in there because it explains the fact that, clutter is stopping people from living their best life.

They're newly married. She wants it to, for them to, to have this lovely life together, but that's being stopped by the clutter, and that is not an uncommon, situation at all. So whilst

Ingrid: Yeah

Lesley: agree with the process, in fact, the process was, And that's why I don't watch it. So Ingrid's gonna go on to say that she's watched more of the show. I watched it 'cause I knew we were talking about it and because there'd been a big, furore about it in the industry, so I was interested. But typically I don't watch those shows 'cause I can't watch it 'cause I'm like, "You're misrepresenting so much what we do and what we believe in

Ingrid: Yeah

Lesley: me

Ingrid: Yeah

Lesley: Makes me so

anyway, what about...

Ingrid: Yeah

Lesley: do you think? I'm, I'm ranting now. I'm on my soapbox. But, but there is things that I like. You know, it's good. It's

Ingrid: Yeah

Lesley: of the issues around it.

Ingrid: Yeah

Lesley: But the process and the way is like, that's not the way we do it. Forget about the TV program

Ingrid: Yeah

Lesley: a good, solid professional organizer who, who understands it

Ingrid: Yeah definitely You know what Why don't we Lesley I think we're like all a bit like phew Why don't we take a break for a few minutes and then just come back and just speak some more Because indeed we watched another episode I watched some more because we got more to discuss So let's just take a breather for a minute and get off our soapbox and calm down So see you after the break

Hi everyone Welcome back we ended up having a heated discussion already about this new program how to clean up for cash We Yes we realize there's good parts of it but the worst parts overshadowed a couple of good parts so much that we basically have gone Oh my gosh this is It's just I feel for the people that are part of the show and Lesley what my problem is you know how I am I just What I find very difficult is that they lie to the person that they lie that they're on another show That I found really hard if they just send them away and go You know what We're gonna have a surprise for you in two days time or whatever I don't know how but the fact that they lie to say that you're on another show to find vintage treasures to then come back and that she even calls them and lies to them and I think she really struggles with that as well I think you really can see I don't know Josie Gibson I've never seen her before anywhere else She comes across as quite a nice bubbly person and I think she really struggles with that as well But for me I find that really hard I just yeah I just can't I that's my one of my biggest problems with the show actually apart from of course the fact that this poor person they pack up all their stuff without them even being involved They don't even know that it's happening That's of course a big one as well But I find the lying very tricky

Lesley: Yeah, definitely. And I think, I wanna... You know, we talked at the beginning of the podcast about the fact that it's, you know, put the- we'll put the cat amongst the pigeons a little bit in the professional organizing world. And so I want to

APDO and what they've done. So the people who've been listening to our podcast for a while know that Ingrid and I met through the Association of Professional Declutters and Organizers. There is a fantastic body out there that supports professional organizers to work ethically, trains professional organizers. Ingrid and I did that for many, many years. Ingrid was the president of APDO, so we feel deeply connected to APDO and the APDO community. the professional organizing industry was so up in arms about that, that they put out a press release about it to try and say...

Because that's very damaging to our industry. You know, we work hard

Ingrid: Yeah

Lesley: to try and... You know, 'cause people come to... people who have lived with clutter their whole lives and had people try and throw their stuff away, make them throw their stuff away, what then? You become mistrustful of people. And just because somebody says they're

Ingrid: Yeah

Lesley: organizer that's, that you found on the internet, how do you know that they're not gonna just go and throw your stuff away?

So you're coming from a place of mistrust, in the first

Ingrid: Yeah

Lesley: we do a lot through our work, through active listening, through working in the right ethical way to build trust. And so for a TV program, and it does have a professional organizer in there as well, to represent our industry in this way because people will think, "Ugh, I'm never gonna...

If that-- I bet that's what those professional organizers do, just come and box and make you get rid of all your stuff," which could not be further from the

Ingrid: Yeah

Lesley: So I'm really glad that APDO put a statement out. I sent, I also sent, an email out to all my Clutter Fairy clients as well to say, "Look, by the way, you're already working with us, so you know this is what the, the way we work.

But just so you know, we fiercely disagree with the content of that program. But we understand that it's TV and all that kind of stuff." And so, know, when we say the professional organizers industry is up in arms, it really is. what else do we got? So that, I just wanted to say that anyway in the first instance, but then go into episode two.

Now, in some ways I found episode two even harder than episode one. I only watched two and Ingrid, carried, carried on afterwards. Because in episode two we had, a daughter who, I think she was living or she was in business with her mom, wasn't she? And they... I can't remember what they were doing. So they had like a kind of creative business.

Mom was quite creative, right? She liked pottery and all that kind of stuff. But her... So again, completely understand her rationale for doing it. So her mom had been sort of, her creative desire to do pottery was being curtailed because her craft room had been taken over by clutter, right? 'Cause she loves going out and

treasures and things like that. And so her daughter thought that it was really the right thing to do to, to then Do the same thing that we've already explained. So we don't need to explain how it

process.

Ingrid: Yeah

Lesley: and they value things, look at things, clear out her craft room. They also put some lovely things in.

That bit of it I love, so that before and after transformation, they then uncover her mom's kiln, I think it is, isn't it? And they

Ingrid: yeah

Lesley: to be a craft, a crafting pottery. I don't know, a pottery studio, right? Again, so

Ingrid: Yeah

Lesley: I love that it shows the possibility that we love to show as well. So all we can do with people is going, "It would be lovely for you to get crafting again," and slowly but surely, through the work that people do, then the possibility of that unfolds.

And so I love that they're seeing and, and seeing that for what it is. And so the idea behind it, I love. It's just the process that I dislike. so but her mom was not happy. I think that's fair to say. I

Ingrid: No

Lesley: was gonna lose it completely. She was not happy,

Ingrid: Yeah No not at all I think it really just I think even more so than the first episode I think the mother really was like so taken aback And actually she said I really don't like it that you've gone through all my stuff She was really That's the f one of the first things she said right I can't believe you touched all my stuff And she was Yeah she And I think also because and the daughter came across very ruthless as well Very Oh just box it up Because her heart again was in the right place for wanting to create a beautiful studio a pottery studio for her mom but it was so mu And there was so much stuff let's be honest There was really a lot of clutter You could not have done a pottery studio in there But I think for the mom to go I just don't like it that you've touched all my stuff and gone through everything and I totally understand that And that's also why it's That's why I always work with my clients that I never accept jobs where people say You know what Can you just all sort it out and I'm out for a coffee I'm like No you have to be there I want you to see what we're opening I want your permission to open cupboards I want a permission to open drawers Am I okay to touch this I ask these questions to w to my clients And they're like yeah And of course the longer you work with them you the more you know about them But especially in the beginning that trust is so important So she felt really The mom really felt violated I think maybe is the right word in her privacy and in in

Lesley: Yeah,

Ingrid: Yeah

Lesley: I think

Ingrid: Yeah

Lesley: word. And, and again, I think, and we've talked about it before about relationships, I think, and I think when it's, when it's a family dynamic as well, it can become even more complex

you know, the daughter, she's... I don't know how old she was, 35, 35, around that sort of age now, and her mom was probably around

Ingrid: Yep

Lesley: she? And so the daughter might have lived with that clutter all her life and feels deeply resentful for the

Ingrid: Yeah

Lesley: she grew up in that way.

Ingrid: Yeah

Lesley: it does uncover, like, that, that's the thing about it. It does uncover the f- the real you know, root of why people are like, "Oh,

Ingrid: Yeah

Lesley: please, Dad, please, husband, please, wife, please do something to make me feel better about it." It's very emotionally complex and I think-- think there's a real difference, Ingrid, between, trying to help somebody and trying to fix them. the difference, isn't it? It's

Ingrid: Yeah

Lesley: help someone to come to their own conclusions and to try and, you know, when, when we see those light bulb moments happening and people all of a sudden...

And it doesn't take place overnight, and it definitely doesn't take place in two or three hours when you're not there. You know what I

Ingrid: Yeah

Lesley: to be doing the

Ingrid: Yeah

Lesley: to

Ingrid: Yeah

Lesley: with the things as you're going through it. And so I think, you know, it's, it is, it is difficult. But I think ultimately, it's a tough one. Like, how do you, you know, if you've tried every single year or whatever to try and make these changes to help your parents or your partner make some changes, do you then do when you've got an opportunity like

Ingrid: Yeah

Lesley: And you probably think

Ingrid: Yeah

Lesley: you don't understand.

You know, at the end of the day, we deeply understand it. The people in our community deeply understand it, but some people don't. And so, and that's the difficulty. That's why it's sort of a professional organizer really an important part of this process for a lot of people. So,

Ingrid: Yeah

Lesley: isn't it?

So, but you went on. I got so disgusted. I was like, "Right, I've done my two episodes. I don't need to watch any more to be able to discuss it. I know what I wanna say." But Ingrid carried on 'cause

Ingrid: Yeah

Lesley: herself. I was like, "Is it not called, like, A Busman's Holiday? A Busman's Holiday." I'm like, "Why would I wanna

Ingrid: know

Lesley: programs about decluttering when I'm living, eating, and breathing it every day of my life?"

Ingrid: y you know what Maybe I was like so incredulous about what was happening I was like Surely you can't go on like this Let me just watch another couple of episodes Because I just thought really so in the first two episodes in the end both people take the cash They let that's what they say They t they're deeply distraught but they both take the cash Then in episode three a guy called in the program to help his fiance because they have they had a daughter and she was supposed to move in her own bedroom but she couldn't because all of her mom's or his the fiance's vintage stuff was in there And it was like a separate room absolutely chocker with loads of vintage items And she had a vintage buying and selling shop before but she paused it all because she was pregnant and she was busy with other things and she had the child And so she was considering moving back into the vintage buying and selling but the fiance was like But we need a bedroom for our daughter now So he calls in the team They and Josie apparently loves vintage clothing so she's trying things on which I ugh very tricky Find it very hard to watch and they box everything up and she comes back and she there's in the 24 boxes or something like that with all of her stuff Interestingly I And that's the thing that's interesting about it I would've expected because it was all vintage it would be more money So I thought okay because I'm always that intrigued as we always say Lesley if you can please donate instead of trying to sell it But I thought Oh it's all vintage stuff so it must be worth a lot of money The whole thing 32 boxes full of vintage stuff is £3,200 which of course is a lot of money but I didn't expect I thought it would've been more But anyway that's a side note In the end the woman is so shocked and she basically walks out of the room and goes with to her fiance We need to talk And I think he goes I'm in trouble now So they go away and apparently discuss it off camera for 30 minutes and then she comes back and she actually says I'm gonna keep it So she does not accept the money She decides to keep it and says I am going to start up my vintage selling and buying business again but it's been an experience and blah blah blah So she doesn't accept the cash And in the fourth episode they do accept the cash again But again similar situation It's just

Lesley: in, in here, aren't we? We should, we should put a spoiler alert at the beginning of the show, shouldn't we? If you haven't watched it and don't

Ingrid: I know

Lesley: I know. So yeah, it's, yeah, it's an interesting one, and I think we do have a bit of a love-hate relationship with decluttering shows, as we have, spoken about. You know, there's been some good, some good, programs on lately. We've had The Tonight Show, we've had... But there's definitely this angle of making money from your clutter, which we're sort of a little bit like, ah, like, yeah, that's great to make money from your clutter if you can, don't want people to be of constrained by that.

And that's what we find, it's, it's just holding people back from actually making more solid progress. I mean, anybody who's been to any of our challenges or is, is in our inner hub membership will hear us banging on about if you can, just donate it, just let it go and don't worry about... Like I think we said, you know, like, they boxed that whole thing up and it was still, you know, I'm not saying 3,000 pounds is not a lot of money.

Of course it is. But it's not life-changing for a lot of people. Do you know what I mean? And so we

Ingrid: Yeah

Lesley: to think about it, and often we put a much higher value on our things than actually the reality is.

Ingrid: Yeah

Lesley: one

Ingrid: Yeah

Lesley: talk about was Vintage Cash Cow, 'cause Vintage Cash Cow, is a company that we know.

so they are involved in the show. They're not kind of the main people, are they? But they get called in. They're-- So basically it's a company in the UK, I believe it's worldwide now, or certainly in some countries around the

where you can sort of send off your, if you've got like unusual vintage-y type items, whether that's like vintage costumes or costume jewelry or medals or that, that kind of stuff, gold, silver, like cutlery, you know, all those kind of things that you might have kept from your grandma, a lot of those kind of things, you can send them off to Vintage Cash Cow in like a box.

You send them off as a job lot, and what they do is they value them. Unless it's changed, I don't know, it worked them for years, I've only been with. But unless, you used to send off a

Ingrid: And

Lesley: the

couldn't say, want a price for the gold ring and another price for this one."

They give you like a price for everything, and you either choose to accept

Ingrid: Yeah

Lesley: or decline it, and if you decline it, then you just get the box back in the post or nothing. There's no cost to you or something like that. so, and we know,

Ingrid: Yeah

Lesley: who's on, don't we? 'Cause he came... So I went to Vintage Cash Cow in Leeds.

How long was that ago? Like 12 years ago. So they used to have a, a,

they used to have a big warehouse in Leeds. I'm sure it's a much bigger operation now, so I'm sure they're not still in that warehouse. I met them and really loved the way that they were doing things And Anthony, the guy that's on the sh- on the show, came to, one of the APDO conferences back in the day, didn't he?

And spoke and everything to,

Ingrid: Yeah

Lesley: the organizers. So, you know, it is there as an option for you. If you do have a lot of those vintage-y type stuff, you know, have a look at Vintage Cash Cow and, and see whether or not it's something that's gonna work for you. as I say, we've not used it for a long time, so we don't know how it kind of all works and fits together or whether it's changed or whatever.

But, we had

Ingrid: Yeah

Lesley: with it, with, with them, back in the day, didn't we? So, so yeah.

Ingrid: Yeah

Lesley: I think we just... We know that a lot of people are not in the UK and may not have the opportunity to watch this show. I don't know, what, what channel is it on? Channel 4, Is it Channel

Ingrid: I think it's ITV

Lesley: So it's on ITV, so, know, you can get that elsewhere in the world or, I don't know, there's things on YouTube.

I'm not sure how it all works, but if you wanted to watch it. But really, you probably don't need to watch the show to understand how the show went. We've explained it. And so

we just wanted the opportunity to talk about it because it's been something that's been talked about in our Facebook group, and to say that we wholeheartedly

with the way that that was done.

A professional organizer will not work with you in that way. and, but we see the emotional side of what clutter does to relationships in general, and we can see the desperation

Ingrid: Yeah

Lesley: that ma- make them reach out to a TV program scenario

Ingrid: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I think it's really all about, we talk so much about the emotions that sit behind items, and we, have our roadmap where we help our members through, items that are less emotionally challenging to more emotionally challenging. And we have a whole pathway and a structure, and we, talk a lot about that.

And it's just so cold turkey in this program. It's it's all there and boom, it's boxed up and it's, can be gone the next day. And sometimes these things are people lifetimes of belongings, of things they've curated along the way. And I don't know, it's just really, I think, tricky. And I think the shame in all of this is, we've been working so hard, when we're in ABDO, when we are working with our clients now here in the Declutter Hub To Go, sometimes it can be really helpful to hire a professional organizer or to come into a membership where we can help you through.

And programs like this kind of go, "Oh, There's a professional organizer there. This is how they work. They just box stuff up behind your back and throw it all out without you knowing." And we're like, we've been work- literally for 15 years, this is how long we've been doing this, telling everybody, "No, we need to work together.

We're not gonna throw anything away behind your back." And then boom, one TV program and everybody's "Told you this is how it's going." And we're like, "Oh, don't do this to us," because this is not how it goes. But that's TV. That's TV, Lesley. And, but I think it's important to talk about it because

Lesley: worries.

Ingrid: we have to sh- Yeah, definitely

Lesley: Been a while since we've done a proper ranty podcast, hasn't it? Oh, may- maybe not, probably like two weeks ago. But this is like a whole rant, like a half an hour rant. So, so yeah,

Ingrid: Yeah.

Lesley: if you've not got, the program, to you, don't worry about it. You're not missing anything. Truth be known, if you wanna go watch it, you could go watch it on ITV and see what we were ranting about, and we would love to hear what you think, again, in the Facebook group as well.

Tell us what

Ingrid: I know

Lesley: and tell us whether you were kind of like, know, running for cover, like, "Don't let those people into my house." And, yeah. So thank you so much for

Ingrid: Yeah

Lesley: We will be back. We'll be less ranty next week, Ingrid.

Ingrid: We'll be calm again. We'll be calm again. So thanks so much for being here. We'll see you soon