A photograph of a smiling woman wearing a red scarf in her hair - guest expert Caroline Rogers talking about positive psychology

Episode 124 – Guest Caroline Rogers explains positive psychology

In this episode, Ingrid is speaking to Caroline Rogers. Caroline set up Room to Think in 2013. As part of an MSC in applied positive psychology and coaching psychology, she focused her research on the association between clutter and wellbeing. Alongside professional organising, Caroline also has a coaching practice. The learning and reflection within both practices feed and support each other.

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Transcript of this podcast episode

Intro  0:07  
Welcome to today's episode of The declutter of podcast, your channel for super easy, no nonsense advice on how to declutter and organise your home. Please welcome your hosts professional organisers, Ingrid Johnson and Lesley Spellman.

Ingrid  0:31  
Hello, Ken welcome listeners to Episode 124 of the declutter hub Podcast. I'm Ingrid. In today's episode, I'm talking to Caroline Rogers. Caroline sets up room to think in 2013. As part of an MSc in applied positive psychology and coaching psychology, she focused her research on the association between clutter and well being alongside professional organising, Caroline also has a coaching practice the learning and reflection within both practices feet and support each other. She lives in East London, and enjoys walking, laughing, debating and learning. So welcome, Caroline. Thanks for being on our show.

Caroline  1:16  
I'm so happy to be here. I really am. Thank you so much for having me,

Ingrid  1:21  
Caroline, we are going to talk about your MSc and it's kind of a mouthful, applied positive psychology and coaching. Psychology, oh my gosh, I can't even nearly get it out of my mouth. So let's just brief it to positive psychology. So what is positive psychology? Let's start there. I mean, you've done a whole MSC about it. But what is it? And why does it interest you so much? And why do our listeners need to know about this? That's what I need to know. So

Caroline  1:55  
positive psychology is the science. It's the scientific exploration of what makes life better. And it's, it's a new ish stream of psychology and that it was launched, at the sort of turn of this century, psychology kind of set out to look at what makes life work well, when it when it's set up. And then it kind of forgot to do it because it was got so busy with dealing with trauma. And I imagine that that's where a lot of the funding was to do with fixing people. And then what happened was that this question of, you know, those people that are all right, those those people, those organisations, those families, those cultures, those organisations that are doing well, and that are thriving, you know, is there something that we can learn from from, from those people? And, and use it to help those of us who are struggling? And and the beautiful answer to that question is, yes.

Ingrid  3:04  
So let's then talk about the meaning of possessions. What is this? And how useful is it in this context for our listeners? And how can knowing about this help us decide what to keep? And how to let stuff go? So let's talk about the meaning of possessions. Then,

Caroline  3:24  
just in terms of the research literature. What's interesting about possession meaning research is that, again, a bit of an irony, it's quite often contained in consumer psychology. So what's happening is that people are looking at the meaning of possessions because they want to help people buy more, you know, to become more of a consumer. I mean, I don't know whether that's strictly true, but it felt quite ironic when I looked at it. In 1988, this chap, Russell Belk wrote a seminal paper. It's called possessions and the extended self. And what he's saying in that paper, is that our possessions are literally extensions of ourselves. So for example, this ring is part of me, if I were to die, my people that love me, I would be embodied in this ring. Yeah. And he talks about this word contagion, that possessions have a contagion essence of their owner. I think that's why it's so tricky to get let a gift go. Because when we receive a gift, it's like somebody is giving a bit of themselves to us. And although we might not like the gift in and of itself, we might already have one of those or we might not like the colour or Have the style. But because it's been given to us by a person, it's like they've given us a bit of themselves. And so to throw that away or discard, it would be like we were throwing them away, letting go with them. And, but the thing about this is that it's really long this essay, and I've never read it in one sitting. And it's, you'd love it. It's an organisational feat, I have no idea how this guy managed to do it, because he came at possessions from all angles, all scholarly angles. So you know how children typically have an attachment toy. And it's the one that we all dread losing isn't my you know. And so a bunch of children were invited to come to a research place with their attachment toy. And the researchers had made this sort of magic machine into which you could duplicate an object. So they would take a child attachment toy, and then duplicate it and offer the duplicate to the child back. And the child almost universally, just went, No, I don't want that one. I want mine, because it's mine. And there was something about how children want to have a T shirt that used to belong to a good child, they don't want to have a T shirt that used to belong to a naughty child. They want to catch goodness. They don't want to catch naughtiness. And so there's something about when we consider our possessions, if we can invite ourselves to really consider what is the attachment that I have to this? And when I think about what's meaningful and important in my life at the moment, are those two things still aligned? You know, do those two things still match? You know, this marathon medal from when I used to identify as a runner. Is this still important to me now that I identify as a pole vaulter? You know, do I? Is this? Is this me still? Or is it not me? Is any of this making sense? In grid?

Ingrid  7:25  
Yes. Because I'm trying to think, How can so when people come across items, when they're decluttering? It's really important to ask that question to themselves, then this item still. Reference represent me? And do I want to have it in my life?

Caroline  7:47  
Yes, what what is the meaning of this and, and you'll, you'll know that sometimes what our clients need to do is they need to tell us the story. And then when they finish telling their story, sometimes at that point, story's over. And they can let that go. And sometimes talking about a possession and the meaning it has for us can help us work out what's meaningful in our lives, and meaning in life is an important part of well being. So that again, back to this ring, if I were to tell you the story of the ring, and it was given to me by my sister in law, on the day that my father in law died. And so these are two really important people. And it's like, I carry my sister in law and my father in law with me on my finger, and I will I will not let go of that ring. I was working with somebody the other day who came across a photograph of somebody who used to be very important and meaningful in their life and no longer is and therefore able to let go of the photo. Having told the story.

Ingrid  8:57  
Yeah. So what do you do that with a gift that somebody gives you? And you kind of really don't like the colour, you don't like the look of it, it's you already have something similar? How do you then go about being able to let that go?

Caroline  9:17  
I think there's challenge number one could be to ask ourselves, what, what, what, what rules have I inadvertently set up for myself? And if Rule number one is, it's a gift, therefore you have to keep it, then perhaps that rule would benefit from some gentle challenging. If you had given somebody else a gift, and they didn't like it, and they were feeling overwhelmed by their clutter, would you want them to keep it? No. No one wants to give anyone a burden do day,

Ingrid  9:59  
then my next Question is, in what ways? Is it useful to take positive psychology approach when it gets to grips with our possessions? So how do we deal with all of that? Because it's in our lives, it's in our homes, how do we find out what makes us happy and is good for our well being. And

Caroline  10:19  
there's a really lovely offering that positive psychology has bought, which is to take a strengths approach a character strength approach to everything in life, and a lot of work. I don't want to get too sciency about this, but a lot of work went into this, that's just take it as read. And so there's something about identifying what our particular character strengths might be. Sometimes it's quite useful to have a conversation with somebody else about that, actually, because quite often, these are the things that have, you know, when it comes to yours, it will be what is essentially quintessentially Ingrid, you know, what is it about you that you do without thinking? And is that a strength of forgiveness? Or curiosity? Or humour or, or love of learning, or something like that? And once you can identify that and articulate it, then perhaps a question might be in good? How can you use your strength of curiosity? To get to grips with your possessions? If you've used that? Well, in the past, in your job in HR? Or hotels? It was doesn't it? In you know, what strengths can you bring to this? overwhelmingness? I know you don't have it with your clutter, because you're a professional organiser, that you know, for, for your listeners, it might be to think about, well, you know, what is it that I do? Well, quite naturally, I am naturally quite creative. How can I use my creativity? To get to grips with my possessions? You know, if if I have a massive sense of playfulness or humour, how could I use that to approach this difficult task ahead of me? So that's one thing. And then I would say that the other thing is, and again, I don't want to get too sciency about it is is that there is a massive evidence base for mindfulness. What is mindfulness, mindfulness really, is, it's to do with training our brains to pay attention. And so there's something about as your listeners trawl through this kind of insurmountable task of getting to grips with their possessions to notice what's happening. Notice how we feel when we touch something, notice the thoughts that come into our head, when we look at something or feel something, notice the rules are occurring. Notice each time we use that word should, which needs to be banned, in my opinion, after it follows the name of a person or particularly I, you know, there are so many alternatives to shirt, you know, I won't I may, I want to, I don't want to I might, the more we can notice what's going on for us, then the more we can start to pay attention to it.

Ingrid  13:21  
Can we then because this is a very interesting, can we then talk about the miracle question? Can you tell me what the miracle question because it's kind of connected to this? This is the use of words in language, but I think it's really helpful for people who struggle with clutter. So let's talk about the can you tell us what the miracle question is?

Caroline  13:43  
Let's do it. Let's do the America a miracle question together. The invitation initially, is to sit with comfort, maybe feel feet on floor, perhaps raise the shoulders up to the ears, and then put them down again, gently and take a breath in through the nose. And then out through the mouth to expel and perhaps just to do another one of those in through the nose. And out through the mouth. And maybe to close the eyes gently.

Ingrid  14:17  
Are you doing this listeners? Are you doing this while Caroline is telling us to do this, please follow along? Close your eyes, not when you're driving, please.

Caroline  14:28  
And perhaps if your listeners were to imagine the particular area of clutter that is worrying or challenging them at the moment, and perhaps that's just a draw, perhaps it's the whole house. But the invitation now is to imagine that you go to bed tonight. And while you're asleep a miracle occurs. And when you wake up in the morning, everything in that drawer House, that particular area of your house is exactly as you want, and need it to be. Imagine opening your eyes and imagine looking at what you see. And in your head, please notice what you see. What is it that you see? try really hard to resist saying. There aren't any shoes on the stairs in the way or something like that check if there if there's no shoes on the stairs on the way, what is on the stairs? What do you see? And at the same time, notice what you're thinking? What are you feeling as you make your way, say, to the bathroom? Or to where you go to go have breakfast? What can you see? What has happened. And then if we were doing this together as a as a, you know, in a formal way, I would now I'm just opening my eyes, I would invite them to stay with that for some time. And perhaps to draw it to do whatever feels natural for you as an individual. Maybe it's a drawing, maybe it's a list of words, some something to anchor it and the challenge is always what is not what isn't.

Ingrid  16:40  
Yeah. Is that very closely connected to visualising maybe the larger goal, what do you want to happen?

Caroline  16:50  
Yeah, and that's a very good question. What do you want to happen? Along with what's the purpose of this space room house cupboard? That there's something about if we can see and visualise and get a sense of what what could be and what we want and need it to be? Then we can find the way to get there. If we know where we're going. We can get there.

Ingrid  17:19  
Okay, listeners, please. If you were driving, I hope he did not actually close your eyes because that would worry me. Or maybe when you're in the supermarket driving your trolley around, I hope you've parked up somewhere. I hope this was helpful, because I think we're always thinking about everything we don't want. But maybe it's really important. Start thinking about what we do want. And then think about how do I actually get there. It's interesting, because a lot of our the people that I meet say, Well, my house is cluttered everywhere and my whole house is I want to do my whole house. And let's you know, I always bring it back to be we're very practical. As you know, we're very down to earth and we say okay, okay, your whole house is cluttered. But you can't do your whole house. It you have to take the small steps like you can't eat the whole elephant, you have to take it one bite at a time. So if you know where you want to go, and you can't just say, well, I need to do my whole house. Okay, but what's the idea behind it? What's the ultimate game here? Is it because you want to have people over to be able to visit? Do you want to have people sitting at your dining room enjoying a meal? Do you want to have your grandkids in the spare bedroom? Do you want to find time to do that hobby? Do you need to walk or want to direct decorate your house? Or do you want to build an extension? Because I don't know it can it doesn't really matter what it is. But the I want to declutter my whole house, okay, that's the statement, it doesn't get to where you want to go? What's the end goal? What's the vision? And how are you going to chop up that project in small bits to to do this? And I think that's very interesting. As part of the the miracle question, what is not what isn't really like that? Okay, so let's then talk about self compassion and self care, because they, again, they seem like very, very similar words, but they're not are they Caroline?

Caroline  19:36  
I think it is quite useful to get a bit of an understanding about the difference. Compassion is turning towards suffering. And so self compassion is to turn towards our own suffering. There's an amazing woman called Kristin Neff, who's done a lot of work into the area of of self compassion, and she He talks about how suffering is part of life. And actually, just saying that out loud makes me feel better. You know, we don't all want to be jolly hockey sticks and in heaven all the time, do we, we need to suffer a little bit, we need to have a headache in order to experience the joy of not having a headache, it would be highly unlikely to meet anyone who hasn't suffered in some way, shape or form. We are so much better at doing that to ourselves than we are to anyone else. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't talk to a politician that I didn't like, in the same way as I talked to myself in that self incriminating, nasty, I'm gonna say almost abusive way that we do. That's it. Amin, Amin, Amin, Amin, amin, a yet rubbish at this rubbish at that. And so what self compassion is doing is it's inviting us to treat ourselves as we would say, you know, the ideal mother, or the best friend, you know, what would my best I've lost my keys. That means I'm a terrible person. And I don't know how I can actually present myself to the world as a professional organiser, because I don't know where my keys are. What was my best friend say? My best friend would say that Caroline, you're human. You know, losing your keys is part of life. You know, take a breath. Where did you see them last? That's what they would do. Yeah. And, you know, I don't know about you, but but I find it quite easy to spot it in clients when they start to beat themselves up and possibly less easy to spot it in myself. But it really is something about, you know, what would, what would my best friend say to me right now,

Ingrid  22:01  
we are so used to being very hard on ourselves. And then Lesley and I promote a lot within the declutter hub within a membership is Be kind, you know, it doesn't always go perfect. It does not about perfection. Sometimes things go wrong, and it's how we deal with that and how we then move on, that we can be growing debt resilience. There we go. Grin. Hmm,

Caroline  22:27  
yeah, absolutely. There's a great pneumonic for it as well, which is stop. And it's to do with that, where if we can notice if we can catch ourselves having those self incriminating thoughts to stop? Yeah, the S stands for stop. Yeah. And the T stands for take a breath. And the O stands for observe situation. And then the P stands for proceed.

Ingrid  22:56  
So okay, now we know what self compassion is being pointed to a shell. So let's talk about self care, then, because that I think, is really important, too.

Caroline  23:06  
Yes, it really is. And the only difference is that self compassion is to do with our thoughts. It's cognitive, it's to do with, with calming, and noticing and paying attention to those difficult thoughts. And self care might be the sorts of things that our ideal mum might do for us. Maybe she might run us a boss. Maybe she might say, why don't you spend another couple of hours under the duvet tomorrow, and really allow yourself to do that. There's a positive psychology intervention, which is called savouring. And there's something about you know, why don't you have a bit of chocolate and really savour the taste really notice it? When I think about self care, I always see someone you know, like, sitting on the sofa with their feet up watching Netflix and a whole heap of chocolates, and really allowing themselves to doing that and really allowing themselves to indulge in it. Or it might be, as some Queen Elizabeth said in decline recently. Take a brisk walk. You know, it might be that it is to, you know, what can I do to take care of myself right now? I need a walk. I need to sleep. I need to chat with my best friend. I need to listen to some music. I need to dance like nobody's watching.

Ingrid  24:36  
It's interesting that a lot of these things Caroline don't cost a lot of money.

Caroline  24:43  
They really don't. They are absolutely free. Yeah.

Ingrid  24:48  
I think people who suffer with a lot of clutter, feel that constant overwhelm in their, in their house and that I think plays on their mind. Oh, so I think then when they want to relax and practice self care, they almost feel guilty for doing that, because the house is such a mess. And how can I sit down and do nothing. And I think it's so important that you use that self care, you know, to be kind to yourself, and to kind of go, okay. And maybe maybe the trick here is, okay, I'm really going to save for this, this walk or this reading a book. But maybe it's the, instead of doing the this the whole weekend, I'm going to go and say, You know what, I'm going to try and do some decluttering. This weekend, I'm going to focus on some tasks in my house. And then Sunday afternoon, I'm already looking forward to it, then I'm going to enjoy it. And just do it without feeling guilty, because you've done the things you want to do. Is that how that works?

Caroline  25:55  
Yeah. And look at how a I can see you, your body changed. When you started to say that and your voice changed. I think we forget that. I think that we think that we should just crack on and keep doing it until it's done. Yeah. And and what we forget is that if we can invest some self care time in that, what that does is it's like putting petrol in your car, and getting a massive oil check and tire check and everything all at the same time. And then your car runs more smoothly.

Ingrid  26:31  
Are there any particular positive psychology tools or models that you find particularly useful when working with clients who have clutter? Is there anything you think? Oh, yeah, I want to share with your listeners, Ingrid.

Caroline  26:46  
I think I remember I noticed some time ago, that there's a big difference between these two questions. How are you? And what lovely thing happened to you this week. And there's something about what lovely thing happened to you this week, that when we recall, a lovely thing, what that does is it floods in a bit of positive emotion. And it puts us in a better frame of mind. And sometimes it can be really challenging to think about a lovely thing. But actually, there are lots of lovely things my husband's Achilles snapped like a twig in August. And we both went, Oh, we forgot to be really grateful that you could stand on your own two feet. You know, we we forget to notice some of the lovely things like putting a key in a lock in it turning, turning a switch on a light coming out, turning a tap on and getting water. Yeah. Being in the loo, and there being toilet paper there. You know, how lovely is that? We don't notice unless it's not. I call that the toilet paper syndrome. There really is something about noticing the good, good things. Make us feel good. Yeah. And then when we feel good, and this is a bit of a giveaway about my research, when we feel good, we're more likely to be able to tackle difficult things.

Ingrid  28:20  
Last question for you, then Caroline. What? Because you said, Oh, I've got some apps, maybe that could be interesting for your listeners. So what kinds of things have you got in mind?

Caroline  28:29  
Yeah, that action for happiness has got an app as well, okay. And they, they produce these calendars with these small actions that we can take each day. And if you that the app is free to download. And then what it does is it gives you the intention that the action that day to make you feel good, and there's chat and things that you can get involved in if you want to, I particularly have really benefited from the headspace app, which is a mindfulness app. And there are gazillions of different, you know, mindfulness programmes that you can take yourself through 10 minutes a day. And that's all there if you do have to pay for it. But I think you can do the firt you can do a trial. And if you like it, then go for it. And then there's another mindfulness app that's called Insight Timer, which I really like. And one of the reasons I really like that is because it's got it's got some sounds on it. And then there's various positive psychology podcasts as well, actually. So there's a podcast by an amazing professor called Dr. Laurie la you are ie Santos, which is very much like the declutter hug thing, in that, you know, it's the same thing she'll have a good fat chat with somebody and And that's a lovely thing to listen to. Yeah.

Ingrid  30:03  
Any final thoughts from you, Caroline?

Caroline  30:06  
There's probably loads of things that are think of afters. But there's one thing that sprang to mind at the moment, which was that a story I heard from one of the positive psychology researchers who said that when he was little, and he was feeling a bit grumpy, his mum would say to him, you're a bit grumpy today. Go and do something kind for somebody else. And I think that is such wonderful advice. If we're feeling a bit grumpy about life, or if we're feeling overwhelmed by our possessions, and perhaps to just do a nice thing for somebody else will make us feel better, and possibly a bit more equipped to tackle our own stuff.

Ingrid  30:56  
I love that listeners. What do you think? Do something kind for somebody else? I love that.

Caroline  31:04  
Well be a better place if that was our intention every day. Yeah, it really works. Yeah, for sure.

Ingrid  31:11  
And it's what we see a lot is that people find the right place to donate their items. Really feel good. Oh,

Caroline  31:19  
massively. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that is the most phenomenal kindness. Yeah, isn't it when you think that when you, when you take that stuff to a charity shop, you're giving someone else? The opportunity? A you're passing on your lovely essence with your contagion of your possessions? Ie you're giving somebody else the opportunity to really savour and enjoy it. Yeah. It's one of the kindest things we can do.

Ingrid  31:46  
Yeah, I think that's what I personally really appreciate about, like all the free apps, the the free cycles, the free goals, the OLIO is the that's the kind of stuff do you think, Oh, I don't know if it did a chest Shep once this, but I don't want to throw it away because it still has some life left in it. So that's where I think if you say do something kind for somebody else, I think that's where, especially with if we pull it back to decluttering. I think that definitely helps. So well. Thank you, Caroline, for spending the time with me on this podcast. It was wonderful to have you on as a guest.

Caroline  32:22  
It's been really great fun. Thanks for making me think of it. I've really, really enjoyed it. Yeah, it's,

Ingrid  32:30  
well, listeners. I hope you've enjoyed this too. So that's it for this podcast. And we hope you've enjoyed listening and are inspired to take action, because that's what we're all about at the declutter hub. Now if you've enjoyed this podcast, please SHARE with others maybe your friends or family would love our show too. And on our show notes page on our website, you can find the sharing buttons. If you want more handy tips and advice from Lesley now you can find us in lots of places. We have a fab supportive Facebook group called the declutter hub community, which is a great starting points and where you can also find us on Instagram, and on Facebook too, as at declutter hub, and we'd love to see you there. Take a look at members declutter hub.com To find out more about our membership. If you don't want to miss our next podcast, subscribe to the newsletter, have podcasts and it will pop into your notifications each Friday, we have been asking for reviews which make a huge difference to us. So if you have to enjoy today's podcast or any of our other podcasts, we would love you to take a couple of minutes out of your day to leave us a review. Maybe that can be your kind thing for somebody else. Maybe you can leaves review, and that is your kind, something for somebody else. So thanks so much for listening, and we'll see you next time.

Outro  33:51  
Thanks for listening to this week's episode of The declutter hub podcast. Check out declutterhub.com For more inspiration, and don't forget to tune in next week.

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Episode 361 – Decluttering for yourself – why Swedish death cleaning might not be for you

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Episode 359 – Matt Paxton – Finding the treasures in the trash

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Reese Evans says:

13 September 2021 at 7:57 PM

The episodes are amazing about positive psychology. It helps people to self development. Great.

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1. Lesley Spellman says:
  
  13 September 2021 at 10:57 PM
  
  Thanks for listening Reese!!
  
  Reply
Elizabeth Merza says:

5 March 2021 at 7:56 PM

Have just listened to this podcast and found it very enjoyable (like listening to 2 friends chatting) and insightful. The idea of things we own somehow having something of us in them came to me this week during the A-Z challenge. It’s good to think about why we find it difficult to let things go because sometimes even just taking a moment to realize why, can make it easier to let go. And I really like the advice to do someone a good turn if you’re having a bad day. I’ll remember that!

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1. Lesley Spellman says:
  
  7 March 2021 at 7:56 PM
  
  So glad you enjoyed the podcast, Elizabeth. It was great to hear all about decluttering from a slightly different angle, wasn’t it?
  
  Reply

Episode 124 – Guest Caroline Rogers explains positive psychology

Episode 361 – Decluttering for yourself – why Swedish death cleaning might not be for you

Episode 360 – Gretchen Rubin – The secret to happiness in a cluttered world

Episode 361 – Decluttering for yourself – why Swedish death cleaning might not be for you

Episode 360 – Gretchen Rubin – The secret to happiness in a cluttered world

Episode 359 – Matt Paxton – Finding the treasures in the trash

Episode 358 – Ingrid and Lesley go hypothetical

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