A photograph of a woman in an M&S store, wearing her uniform, standing in front of a display of clothes and holding a label on one of the items
Episode 137 – M&S explains what happens to clothes from the shwopping scheme

In today's episode, Lesley is chatting to Carmel Mcquaid, the Head of Sustainability at Marks and Spencer, a retailer well loved and operating all around the world. Carmel explains what M&S are doing to encourage sustainability in their clothing and we couldn’t be more delighted to welcome her.
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Transcript of this podcast episode
Outro  0:07  
Welcome to today's episode of The declutter hub podcast, your channel for super easy, no nonsense advice on how to declutter and organise your home. Please welcome your host professional organisers, Ingrid Jansen, and Lesley Spellman.

Lesley  0:32  
Hello, listeners and welcome to episode 137 of the Declutter Hub Podcast. I'm Lesley so today I am super excited as we've got a very special guest. Carmel McQuaid is the head of sustainability at Marks and Spencer, a retail that is well loved and operating all around the world. Carmel is here to talk to us about what my suspensa are doing to encourage sustainability in their clothing. And we couldn't be more delighted to welcome her. So welcome, Carmel.

Carmel  1:00  
Hello, thank you for having me.

Lesley  1:02  
Oh, you're welcome. And can I just say that all our lovely listeners who talk about Ingrid and my accents are in for a special treats because Carmel now lives in London but has a most beautiful Irish accent which is a pleasure to listen to. And I know loads of people around the world. Love an Irish accent. Thank you so much for taking time out of what must be a crazy time as Marks and Spencers. As we come out of lockdown and for being a guest on our podcast.

Carmel  1:25  
No problem. I'm delighted to be here. I came across professional declutters as part of a research project that we did a few years ago. So I've been intrigued by your specialism ever since

Lesley  1:36  
I know Yeah, it was quite interesting when we first spoke and I've just been at a conference talking about professional organisers I was like really, that's so exciting that Marks and Spencers have got professional organisers on their radar. Right, let's get started. Then let's talk about sustainability Marks and Spencer in general. So why is it so important and to be so sustainable?

Carmel  1:55  
Well, Marks and Spencer is a brand that's been around for over 130 years. So we have a long heritage in in anticipating and responding to changes in society. And our brand is very well trusted as well. So it's really important that we maintain that trust. And it became clear to us over 1213 years ago that sustainability was rising up the agenda of customers expectations, and it was something that they expected businesses like an S to be involved in, get on top of and make sure that we're doing the right thing. So in 2007, we launched our sustainability programme called Plan A which set out our vision of being sustainable business and everything we were going to do on environmental and ethical issues. And we've updated it on a regular basis since then. So and it's really rooted in an understanding of customers will expect this of our brand. And we know there's things that we can do to have a more positive impact. And we want to do that.

Lesley  2:57  
You know, it's so interesting that you're saying that karma because I've definitely seen it even just over the last year during the pandemic, I don't know if it's because people had a little bit more time to think about it. But I think sustainability certainly in our in our field of work is definitely growing and people are freecycle has taken off hugely freegle has taken off earlier has taken off. And people are definitely looking at alternative ways to repurpose things to make things to make sure that things are being reused and recycled. And you've been at the forefront of that as well, as you say. So I'm interested to know about the kind of what are Marks and Spencers doing to create ethically sourced products and avoid fast fashion? Because that's a big one really, the whole idea of fast fashion and getting something where and it was moving on. That's obviously not what you're known for. And so what are you doing specifically to create more ethically sourced products?

Carmel  3:48  
And I think you're right lately, I think interest has been growing. And what's good is people are having more normal conversations about how our clothes made, how often are they being more and what sort of quality have they earned. And for our business that that works well to our strengths. Because we've always started off with, you know, the first principle, which is, you know, our aim is to make high quality clothes that last and, you know, we're very careful about the styles, we choose to design so that they are and that they're not just for one season and they'll be quickly become outdated. We're careful about the fibres and the fabrics that go into making the clothes making sure that they're worn and tested to make sure that they can last and and really that I think the time is coming now where that that is valued more by more and more customers, which is which is great, I think. Yeah, as you say, the last 1218 months has caused people to maybe reevaluate and think about things differently and they're looking for brands that they know are doing the right thing ethically and environmentally.

Lesley  4:52  
Yeah, it's difficult, isn't it sometimes to marry those two things together. So price and ethical, you know, obviously, ethically sourced products is going to cost more money for you To create and to the logistics of it and everything like that are going to be more difficult. But to marry that up against a price point, and people obviously want good value as well. So how does that work?

Carmel  5:11  
Well, often, it doesn't always mean that, you know, you have to pay more for good quality, sustainably sourced clothes. So you know, our, than we really see that as a challenge that we need to grapple with. How can we provide high quality products that customers love and love to wear? And how can we find ways to source them in the most sustainable way. So it could be one example. And we use a lot of cotton in our clothing and and years ago, we identified that there are improvements needed and how cotton is grown, it can be a very thirsty crop. And in some places where it's grown, there's a lot of pesticides and fertilisers. So there's no doubt that you can improve the growing of cotton. So we worked in collaboration with a number of other organisations like the Better Cotton Initiative and WWF. And we set out a goal to say 100% of the cotton that we buy will be more sustainably sourced. And we got there, it took us 10 years and it took a lot of collaboration and work with other brands and with with the wider industry. And but the great news was that for many of those farmers, they could grow just as much cotton with less water and less fertiliser and less pesticides. So it didn't necessarily have to add on extra cost. But it did require investment in education of 1000s of smallholders in many parts of the world. So there's often it's about just deciding that you want to improve things, and then figuring out how to do it, not necessarily just adding 20% more on to cost.

Lesley  6:35  
Yeah, and it's about raising awareness and having the conversation that's always going to be the starting point, isn't it with so many things at the moment, you know, it's just the conversations happening, and then that forces a change to look into something and, you know, start the wheels turn in really. So in most respects, there's a lot of people around the world who are not familiar, I think, I think, I think I'm fair to say that the people that listen to us will be aware of Marks and Spencers and what that represents as a sort of British retailer. And certainly Marks and Spencers do have outlets around the world as well. Not sure how it works in other countries. But certainly in the UK. This is a scheme that a lot of people know about, which is called shopping. So if you want to explain a little bit more about shopping, what it is how it works, and how it benefits you then as a brand.

Carmel  7:24  
So shopping is our clothes take back scheme. So really simply it means that customers can, if they've got items in their wardrobe, they no longer want to wear or they've maybe got some you know, rip, the clothes are no longer and fully perfect. They can take them into an m&s shop or they can take them to an Oxfam shop and donate them. But the main thing is that 100% of those items get ethically recycled. So that was really important to us, because there's a lot of issues with when people are saying I no longer want these items, you're like, I don't want it to go to, you know, textile waste where maybe it ends up in landfill or it's incinerated or it's just shipped to another country without any care and consideration. So that was the problem we were trying to solve to give customers the reassurance that as soon as they handed their bag of clothing over to us with Oxfam, it would be taken good care of. And by taking good care, we looked for a partner that could ensure that none of that textile waste would go to landfill and Oxfam, who are a charity in the UK, they have charity shops, but importantly, they'd also years ago created a textile recycling facility. So they had the process set up that they could sort through the clothes and make sure that as many as possible that could be rewarded were sent to their charity shops, that any items that maybe couldn't be used in the UK were sent to their social enterprise in Senegal, and and then any remaining items that were maybe ripped or the colour had run or whatever it might be. They were then recycled into industrial products. And we were able to link them up with our mattress supplier and they were able to use a number of the textiles as internal filling in mattresses, for example. So and so I think it was it was just a great partnership to give people the reassurance that when you hand your clothes in there go into a good home.

Lesley  9:12  
I think it's really interesting, calm, I think from our perspective, you hand things over or use schemes like this, or if you send things to a charity shop, you know that certain things are going to go into ragging, but you do it in good faith, really, you're not quite sure. And I think there's quite a lot of things out there, is it going to countries that don't need it anymore? Is it you know, and so it's reassuring, then that this has been thought about from your perspective or that it's not just, oh, well we'll use what we can and then the rest of it will just go into the normal channels. You know, because I think there was a lot of people don't know people don't even know what they should send to the charity shop and so you know, there's a lot of misinformation I think out there and unknowns and so I think it is reassuring.

Carmel  9:53  
Definitely and we've done quite a lot of research with with our customers and trying to think about how we improve the swapping. Sir service if you like, and, and there's so many emotions tied up with this, people feel guilty throwing things away. And yet they do want to, you know, make space in their wardrobe. And they, they want to make sure we're possible someone else can get a, you know, use out of that maybe much loved item, maybe it just doesn't fit them anymore. So and so. And then but as you say, it's this, this kind of anxiety over what happens to the rest. So we just wanted to make it as as simple and easy for customers to be able to declutter and in the knowledge that the goods were going to get use.

Lesley  10:33  
Yeah. And I think a brands like m&s in this country, people trust it, anyway. And so you know, it takes it to that next level, doesn't it? Now, it's interesting, really, because I think a lot of our one of the biggest things, you know, we talk about it within decluttering, we talk all the time about barriers that stop us from getting to that end point. And so, the decluttering, the emotions that sit behind that are quite straightforward. But we get to this end point where there is a barrier, and quite often that is it, but I need to make sure that my item goes to the best home for it. And so sometimes we're like, there has to be a balance with that, you know, you have to find something that's going to work for you ultimately, in you know, when we're looking at this different perspectives, I guess, but it's all wrapped together, which is for me, your number one priority has to be decluttering. And then, you know, but if you can find an outlet that is going to achieve that, that's easy to do. Now, some for some people who say, Well, I want to send this brass to this charity, and this piece of makeup to this charity and all that kind of stuff, it becomes so overcomplicated and stops the decluttering process from happening. And so I think it's it's important to know that that sits there behind that. And that's an easy way and one that is going to take people's boxes in terms of sustainability, and what's happening to it going forwards. So important, so important. And there are other tech back schemes out there as well. But I do I mean, certainly people of my age will probably trust that m&s are doing the right thing. I think that's the important thing. So you talked about, that you had come into contact with professional organisers and the kind of decluttering world conference that you went to a couple of years ago. So what did you What did you find? And where did you find that? You know, brands like yourself, and businesses like ours, can educate consumers differently to do things in a different way?

Carmel  12:19  
Well, it was, it was a really interesting and research project we were working on, because what we were trying to understand, and we worked with the University of Cambridge on it, and we're trying to understand how could we, how could we get more people to recycle their clothes? How could we get more of those clothes to stay in circulation and be worn again? And how could we understand you know, how could we take clothes that maybe were in fit for purpose, and you know, turn them into new clothes, again, with new technologies, fibre to fibre recycling, but we spent most of our research focused on even if we already have a simple solution, like shopping, and yet lots of people still don't recycle their clothes, or, you know, maybe maybe think about that, and lots of people are still buying new rather than secondhand. And why is that? So that led us down a path of really understanding some of the customer behaviours and the emotions around buying clothing, wearing clothing, getting rid of clothing, if you like. And it was fascinating, because, you know, we're often very technical in product development in, in retail, where you're thinking about the clothes need to be like, they need to be able to be worn at least 30 times and washed regularly, you know, you should be product that can last for two or three years and be handed down. But actually, people are, you know, even though it's technically still good, emotionally, they've fallen out of love with that item for whatever reason. And actually, once you that was really interesting for us to think about, okay, that's, that's valid, and that's part of it. So, you know, people maybe don't want to keep a trench coat in their wardrobe for 10 years and wear the same coat every single winter. So if that's true, then how can we create? What are the things we can do in this system that allows that trench coat to go to someone else? And they are delighted with it? Because it's new to them? And so we're investigating lots of different ways of how do you get people, there's a lot of value in people's wardrobes. How do you get it out of the wardrobe? And just like some of the the comments you mentioned, there's a lot of barriers to that it's hassle it's admin and doesn't necessarily make you feel good. And then we thought, well, actually, we spotted that there was this, I think it was around the time of the Marie Kondo booth, which was trending at number one, and we've just started to see more and more activity and references to professional organisers and decluttering. And that seemed to be a very interesting solution to addressing some of the barriers that people were finding to open their wardrobe and take stuff out. So I think, as you say your top priority is the decluttering process itself but inadvertently, I think your organisation and people like you have done a huge amount of benefit for sustainable sea movement by addressing some of those barriers.

Lesley  15:05  
Yeah, definitely. I mean, you know that they all sit alongside each other. But ultimately, we have to try and encourage people to make that mental leap. They all sit alongside each other. And sustainability is definitely you know, it's it forms part of our forum discussions in our membership all the time, spring clearing week, which was the Association of Professional declutters and organisers, awareness week in March was all about repurposing, recycling, finding outlets for your stuff. And so, you know, it is it's definitely taken on a whole new level, you know, but that's, that's the case, for everything really sustainability wise in the environment of the past few years, isn't it? So no, it's really good to know that Marks and Spencers are doing their bit, then to make that happen. And, you know, it's interesting when you talk about the emotions that sit behind clothing, because of course, is an emotion that comes even before opening your wardrobe and getting rid of it in your wardrobe in deciding whether or not it's fit for purpose, which is actually the emotions that go with buying something in the first place when you don't even want it, the kind of retail therapy hits and all that kind of stuff. So yeah, so many emotions, you're so right to look at it in that way. And it's not about whether an item is still good to wear, because if we kept all our clothes until they had worn out, you know, that's kind of something that's the make do Amenda we're going back to the 40s very different nowadays, you know, because things kind of are made to last for the most part and will last because we're not wearing them day after day after day like we used to, when we had so many fewer items back in the 40s and 50s, and so on. So it is very different. Kamala, it's so fantastic and interesting to hear what Marks and Spencer have been doing. So what's your biggest takeaway then over the past sort of white? How long have you been head of sustainability at Marks and Spencer didn't even ask? Well, I've

Carmel  16:49  
been working at m&s for 14 years. And so and in this role for a number of years in for me, what's been really inspiring and sort of motivating is how often simple solutions can lead to huge changes. So the simple idea of putting a box in our store and telling customers, you can bring back your clothing. Over the years, it's resulted in 35 million items been recycled through that scheme. And it's raised over 20 million pounds for people living in poverty, which is distributed to Oxfam so and it's offered a solution for customers who are thinking about what do I do with these unwanted items? So that gives me hope. And you know, sometimes the sustainability challenges seem so overwhelming. And actually, often, as you say, if we start the conversation, find ways to address some of the barriers, then, you know, it's a win win, and people can declutter their wardrobes, donate their clothes, help people in poverty, and in many cases, those clothes get a second life, which is that well, that just makes us smile, right?

Lesley  17:56  
It does, you know, and it's a very important message. It's interesting, because we had a guest on our podcast a couple of months ago, Jen Gale, who has written a book and she, she runs a membership and someone called Sustainable ish. And that's exactly her thing is that nobody needs to be the perfect sustainability champion, everyone needs to do a small amount. And that adds up to so much more. And so the message is very, very similar, I think, let's all do our bit to help towards the environment. And we can build on that as the years go by. And that's gonna make a huge difference to, to what this planet looks like. And 100 years from now, isn't it? Exactly. Spot on. Oh, karma. Thank you so much for being here. It's absolutely amazing for you to share your information with us. And I know that you've got a video, haven't you? That explains the kind of recycling process from Oxfam that you're going to share with us as well, haven't you?

Carmel  18:46  
Yeah, I think I think for some of your listeners, it'd be quite I know, I found it amazing when I went to the facility and saw you know, how they were sorting through the clothes and where they were going. So I'll I'll get that from our partners, Oxfam and drop it into your show notes.

Lesley  18:59  
Thank you so much karma for taking the time to talk to us today. It's so important to hear from you know, a key player in the UK retail industry. Thank you very much appreciated. And listeners, I hope you've learned a lot from Carmel and realised how helpful it is to have the opportunity, something as simple as swapping on the high street. All the details. com I've just mentioned will be in our show notes. That's it for this episode. We hope you've all enjoyed listening and are inspired to take action and we appreciate you for taking the time to listen today. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please share it with other people maybe your friends and family are interested in shopping and we would love our show to on our show notes page. On our website, you can find all the sharing buttons. If you want more handy tips and advice from Ingrid and you can of course find us in lots of places. We have a fabulous supportive Facebook group called the declutter community, which is a great starting point. We've got Instagram and a Facebook page too and you can find us at particular to hub we would love to see you there. Don't forget if you want to take your decluttering to the next level. You can look at our members Check which is members.declutterhub.com To find out more. And if you don't want to miss our next podcast, please subscribe to the declutter podcast and it will pop into your notifications each Friday. Thank you so much for listening and see you next time.

Outro  20:17  
Thanks for listening to this week's episode of the declutter hub podcast. Check out declutterhub.com for more inspiration, don't forget to tune in next week.
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