A photograph of Julia Kirby and child, guest discussing space to grieve after loss of husband and role of decluttering
Episode 58 – Making space to grieve with guest Julia Kirby

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In this podcast, Ingrid talks to a client, Julia Kirby, about losing her husband shortly after having their son, Max, and how decluttering was an integral part of making space to grieve.
Dealing with a loved one's belongings after they have passed away is a reality too many of us are faced with, but sometimes we need to make space to grieve. Julia talks candidly about her bereavement, how she came to terms with parting with her husband's things soon after he died and why she feels decluttering was and continues to be such a positive process for her.
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Transcript of this podcast episode
Intro  0:07  
Welcome to today's episode of The declutter hub podcast, your channel for super easy, no nonsense advice on how to declutter and organise your home. Please welcome your hosts professional organisers, Ingrid Jansen and Lesley Spellman.

Ingrid  0:23  
Hello and welcome listeners to Episode 58 of the declutter hub podcast. I'm Ingrid one half of the declutter hub. If you have collateral and want to sort it out, this is the show for you, as well as the free resources on our declutter help.com website, like the podcast checklist and guest blogs. We also have an exclusive area where we guide our members step by step to declutter their homes, we realise this can be very overwhelming. So we're there every step of the way. Live q&a s courses and a community discussion. Take a look on members dot declutter hub.com. In today's episode, I'm talking to Julia Kirby, my organise your house client about dealing with clutter and belongings after a bereavement. I recently worked with Julia again, and her story is so special that I asked her if she was willing to share it with everyone on the podcast. Julia was immediately up for this. And I really hope this podcast will give our listeners an insight with how clutter impacts our lives. Whatever the situation is. Julia, I so appreciate you being here on the podcast.

Julia  1:32  
Thank you, Ingrid, this is great. This is fun. I'm so

Ingrid  1:35  
excited. And you do have a very special story to tell. And I'm really, really grateful for you for doing this with me because I know it must be quite an emotional thing to do so. So why don't you tell your story kind of from the beginning?

Julia  1:48  
Sure. So the story that brings me eventually to meeting you started in August of 2017, summer of 2017. So I was so in love with my husband, David, who I met in 2009. And that's my reason for moving to the UK. And we had a wonderful, healthy life. And I was 10 weeks pregnant with our first child. When David was diagnosed with stage four bowel cancer at the age of 32. He was one of those people you care about where it's just this crazy Fluke thing out of nowhere healthy guy, we had everything going for us, we were so in love and overnight, everything about our life changed. So I cared for him during his very aggressive treatment throughout my pregnancy. And I gave birth to our son at the beginning of March 2018. And 27 days later, David died when his body couldn't cope with the recovery of a surgery that he'd had for pain management purposes. So that's it in a nutshell, basically, but anyone who is listening who has lost someone, particularly particularly to the the nastiness of cancer, would understand that what I'm describing very briefly is actually made up of what was eight months worth of a lot of pretty wild moments in our lives. And it was very surreal to go through something that traumatic pregnancy as a caregiver, and then death immediately following a birth and obviously no manuals for how to handle something like that. So I could go on and on about the the story itself and grief. And you know, this is this is about decluttering. I want to get to that because that is what we're here for it. But but anyone who's listening who's lost, someone knows that when we tell a story very quickly about oh, this happened to me, it's made up of so many, so many moments that you just would actually I might struggle to articulate anyways. So that's, that's me move on. So there I was 31 years old, a new mom with a newborn baby. And I had lots of wonderful support from friends and family. But I spent all of the first year in what I now really understand to be shocked. And that is, of course only now in hindsight. And I do want to say actually, it was important to me to say that what we're talking about today, my experiences my choices within grief and motherhood. It really isn't me trying to give any advice today about what's best for people. Now that time has passed. I don't I don't really like when I read a book or an article to do with parenting or grief and it's very much this work for me. So you should do it this way. Like it's the right way. When it's less common for grief, but I just find it it's so easy to want to share what worked or didn't work for someone after the fact. So new parents and newly bereaved people typically I think you just cope and then later you look back and think Whew, I'm glad I did that I should tell other people to do that. But if any of this were to become any kind of reference point for anyone or they could relate, that's great. But I'm really just glad to be able to share my wonderful experience with you as a professional organiser and what you brought to my life and how decluttering played a role for me that I wouldn't have ever expected to be so significant. David's dad, actually David's dad died just before I met him 10 years ago. And when I would talk to David about his dad, he was very clear and simple about his thoughts, so around his grief. So he would always say that he didn't need photos up everywhere, his dad stuff around to prove his love for his dad. He said He honoured his dad through how he lived his life. And I really saw that in him. So when when David died, I was very quick to take on this mentality of not trying to keep all of his staff as a way of trying to keep him around in some way. Because that's not what he believed. And it was nice to be able to take on that same belief, he had shown me a way of grieving. So the first step in my decluttering mindset was that I got rid of all of the medical stuff in my flat a few days after he died, I took all of his leftover, dangerous painkillers opioids, to the pharmacy for safe disposal, and it was a massive bag, medical gloves, syringes, bandages, a big bag that I walked over to our local pharmacy, and I felt liberated in that moment. The relief for David and for me, the end of that suffering. I just wanted all of this horrible medication out of the house and away from being anywhere near baby. And that was the first way in which I tapped into I guess you could say sort of a decluttering mindset, but I wouldn't have thought of it that way at the time. But I did. I was I was sort of quick to adopt that mentality from there. So right after David died, my aunt who lives back in Toronto in Canada, where I'm from, stayed with me for almost a week and she she was widowed about 12 years ago, she was 50 with four daughters. When her husband died, she was fantastic about offering help if I wanted to tackle any sort of organising of things while she was there. She was like my Mary Poppins. This woman was swooped in and she was such an inspiration to me because she had survived the exact same loss that her husband had died from the same cancer as David. So she recommended a few great tips. She suggested maybe David's ties, be put in little boxes as gifts. So I gave one each to his friends and family in a little gift box. So they all have one of his ties. And she helped me bag up most of his clothes except for his work shirts because she suggested quilt making finding a quilt maker which she'd done for her daughter. She had blankets made out of her husband's shirts. And I held back a few are comfy clothes of his for me to wear. And I kept one suit and a pair of his shoes. So I can show my son Max, how big and tall and strong his dad was. And we drove to a charity shop and my aunt got out while I waited in the car and dropped off the clothes for me. And they I remember her saying they were so grateful that I donated his suits, because I think for a charity shop, that would be a really nice donation. And then I had a box that I kept what I thought were the most important things for Mac. So I selected certain items. I didn't want to go overboard though, keeping in mind what David felt about hanging on to too much stuff as a way of holding on to the person. Anyway, so I decided to do a bunch of things around David's possessions while I was in shock. And I really felt that if I could get it done while I was in shock. I wouldn't have to turn it into a big deal potentially later when I felt worse because I knew I was in shock even though I didn't feel like I was in shock. But in many ways the body protects itself and finds ways to function while in shock. So I knew I kind of had an opportunity there where it wasn't feeling too much. And I was also recovering still from birth, I was breastfeeding a newborn. So there was a lot going on. So I didn't overthink what I was doing at the time, which actually made it easier and I know that wouldn't be for everyone. Some people wait a very long time to tackle possessions and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. I just for myself felt that was right for me. So April, May, June, July, August, September, six months after David died, I'd done a few things to my flat. We'd actually just sold it before David was diagnosed, two bedroom two bathroom flat. But we cancelled the sale when he was diagnosed. We'd wanted to move into our for was Taos when I got pregnant, but we felt it was too much with everything going on. And we stayed put, which in the end was absolutely the right thing to do. So by September, I'd been putting some of my own touches on the flat, like having walls painted and lovely new blinds fitted and trying to make to make it my own. And so I was making the flat mine. And I just felt really bothered when it was when it got messy, which was often because I had a baby. And I have an open plan layout. So if you're in the living room, as you know, you can, you can see everything the kitchen, the dining room area and the hallway area, and you can't really close a door to mass. And my husband and I like to be pretty tidy. And I struggled with how much having a baby interrupted what I was used to, and how it was imposing all of this stuff on me in my life. And it was very symbolic to me of the messiness and the weight and chaos of my now horrible reality. So gifts in general baby items were just coming into the flat, whether I liked it or not, and toys started coming from people breastpump and bottles and doesn't the muslin cloths and blankets to really change the vibe in a home.

The loss of David obviously triggered so many observations about life and what's important. And very quickly, I started turning to a more minimalist approach to life. So in my head, I was becoming more of a minimalist, and I wanted to have less and less stuff. And that that loops back around to what I was saying about how glad I was that we didn't upgrade to a bigger house because I now actually have no desire to live in a big house. I think what it's shown me is how much I'd rather have a smaller place minimal things and actually more opportunity to get out and live life and go on trips and take Max away and have a base for us. But without an emphasis on how much stuff we have. So for me now less is more. And I just felt that even though I wanted less, and I was communicating that I didn't want a bunch of toys for Max and lots and lots of clothes for him, I was telling the family you know, stop, don't don't buy him things. He doesn't need so many things. Stuff kept coming into the flat. And it's just such a part of society now that you show love through gifts and buying things for people. And really honestly, Ingrid, the best things people have done for me, since my loss is give me their time, their company, maybe maybe a meal making me a meal or watching max for me. So I could sleep and things like that. But that is absolutely what I would say, you know, they say the best things in life are free, and it could like it just could not be more true. Anyway, I was I was getting really fed up with the state of the flat and shuffling stuff around and constantly walking around the flat trying to find things a place. And I remember that was one of the things I think I first said to you is I'm just sick of like shuffling this over here. And then I move around the fun. I put this over here. And it's just what a waste of time. So I've wanted to get some kind of sense of control again, in a world that just made, of course, so little sense for me all of a sudden. And I was going to be going on a long trip a five week trip to scatter David's ashes. And I was really keen to leave and be able to come back to something resembling a fresher not start but existence really for what I could imagine at the time. So I just wanted to feel freer of what happened to David and I. And I knew he wouldn't want me stressing out about the kinds of things I was stressing out about. And I wanted less around me so I could have more space to grieve and grieve. Well, I knew that's what I needed to do. Especially while Max was young, I had this opportunity to really deal with things before he was more conscious of what his mom is like. So I'd have breaks for Max, people would help me to get to get some time to myself. And I'd look around at the flat and just feel like there was no way I could tackle what I wanted to achieve the idea of sorting things, bagging things up doing trips to charity shops, anything like that on my own was too much. And even with the help maybe of a friend if I asked them when I felt sort of like it was too personal of a job to take on with someone I knew I really wanted someone who wasn't attached to David or his memory and make it this big. You know, this big thing. I just I just wanted to do my own thing. So I found you on Google. I didn't know that personal organisers existed. I didn't know that. And you were my first and only inquiry. I remember seeing seeing you. I don't remember what I saw now. But I know I found you and you were the best of the best online I just I could tell While and I remember booking in with you for a while I was trying to book it with you for early October, and I was really looking forward to it. But you've actually just you've reminded me that it didn't. I thought we'd seen each other before I went on my five week trip. And it wasn't that way. You've reminded me a year.

Ingrid  15:17  
Yeah. Well, we did a consultation in the beginning of October. So you rang me? And you said to me, Ingrid, I really would like you to come to my flats. And I said, right, let me come and see you for a consultation. And then I came for a consultation. And it was very clear to me because you were very open about that your husband passed away. And I saw your lovely son. And and I think, because my son's called Max as well, I think we immediately Yeah, I think we I was like, Oh, I've got a max too. So I think I just and I think it kind of lighten the mood. I

Julia  15:49  
felt very meant to be something. Yeah. And it would have put me at ease for sure. Yeah, definitely.

Ingrid  15:53  
And I remember that there was you know, your friend was here, and you were trying to get in better shape, because it's exercising really provided you with something to focus on. There was lots going on. And I was like, Oh, and you said to me, Ingrid, can you just look around and, and make a plan for me what we're going to do? And I thought, Okay, let me just see how this plans out a little bit. Because I could feel there was a lot going on. And you were you were open about everything. But I just really wanted to look at you're gonna go issue ready for this. And you really mentioned, you wanted to do all of this before you were going away to scatter Davis ashes. But in the end, we ended I think you had about three weeks and our diaries just didn't. Couldn't we couldn't match them up. And

Julia  16:42  
when I wanted you, but I definitely, I was willing Absolutely. To wait. Yeah. For you when we agreed. Yeah.

Ingrid  16:49  
Yeah, to do it when I got back. Yeah. So in the end, we decided we're going to plan a date for when you come back. That was good. I think that was good. It felt like the right thing to do

Julia  17:00  
another thing in hindsight. Yeah. The other thing that in hindsight, isn't that great that I didn't take that on? Yeah, until after I got back,

Ingrid  17:08  
I think it would have I would have felt it would have felt too rushed. For some reason. I think you were doing to do you were trying to do so many things, take care of your son and trying to get in better shape and focus on your trip. And so I don't think she's got the clarity in her mind.

Julia  17:24  
When you now talk about this is really interesting for me to hear your take on how I came across when you came into the flat. Because I remember just wanting to be so busy all the time. And you you coming in and meet me, the personal trainer was here and Max was here and a friend was here. And I was like going or can you just go can you just go take a look around and like the salary what you think I should do is really interesting for me to hear reflected back at me, because you function you're coping, but I absolutely vividly remember your warmth, coming in the way you handled me as a mother, being a mother and as a grieving mother, a great, you know, brief person, you immediately made me feel a sense of ease. But a lot of that came from the fact you introduced such structure, like you came in, and you had a plan. And it was so therapeutic for me. I remember if I felt so sure that what I was doing was right. For my life. It was such an uplifting experience of you just being there. Your presence was like, oh, okay, everything's gonna be okay right now. And God knows what to do. She's going to sort out my life. And then everything's gonna be okay.

Ingrid  18:43  
It's so funny, because I think now looking back on it, you know, at the time, so you came back from America. And you just got to Davis ashes. And we came in, and I took my assistant with me. And so we had a lot of hands in manpower. And it's actually because your memory I was only here once, but I actually came twice. So it just shows you how the mind plays tricks on you, doesn't it? So I actually looked back in my in my diary, and I thought, oh, no, we can twice and of course, the first time we we did your living room and your kitchen and your big hole and your big cupboard. And then a week later, we came back and we did Max's bedroom and a bathroom and we did your chest of drawers. Hey,

Julia  19:27  
yeah. So that's when you brought out the label maker.

Ingrid  19:31  
Yeah, the label maker

Julia  19:34  
maker for the chest of drawers. That was when you put do vase pillowcases and fitted sheets on a label. And that is exactly still exactly right, as a system, but

Ingrid  19:46  
I noticed you have people helping you which is great. But if people don't know where to put stuff back, then it gets really chaotic. So the tiny little label just helps tremendously with things like that. Yeah, it's very it's like I

Julia  19:59  
said there repeating it was comforting, like, this is where that this will always live. This is where the sheets live. How did I, and there was a lot of when you came over, I knew I remember saying to a new, you're gonna give me these nuggets of wisdom, but things that you would say that were like, how did I How? How did I not even think to do that? Like, there's things that you you just have an eye for you walked in and you were like, Oh, well, the sheets could go in this drawer. And it was like, yes, they absolutely could buy in there, you know, sometimes you just need fresh eyes. Yeah, in your house to see something that you feel almost silly. We're not having just thought of that. But we just

Ingrid  20:37  
but it is true. I know, it's a fresh pair of eyes. And I look at storage and stuff in a different way than people and because people live in their own house for a long time. You know, you're almost going to be blind to the, to the clutter and to because it's always been there. And I always make suggestions. And I always asked the client in the end. Is this what you have in mind too, because I can make lots of suggestions and tell people this is where we're going to put stuff. But if you're never going to look for it, there is no point in putting it there. So you have to really keep that communication open. And that's one of the reasons why I always work with my clients, because you can keep checking in on them. And coming quickly back to I'm really glad that we didn't declutter before you went on your trip, we did it after I think you needed to finish. That's almost that story that part of your life first, before you could move on and I I watched you very, very carefully because I think it's very important that we as professional organisers keep an eye on our clients to make sure they are ready for the changes. And I was ready to pull you back if I felt that you were rushing things, or I was ready to cheer you on if you were ready to make those decisions. Yeah, but it's my job in the end that the clients are happy with what they're letting go off. Yeah, like nothing's feels pushed or forced. And in the end, lots and lots when didn't it? I mean, yeah, I remember my assistant and I loading up the car twice absolutely filled to the brim and stuff, but I supported your decisions. I knew those were the right decisions for you and nothing was like oh, she should have kept that because I would have said to you Julia Can you please rethink this because that's just maybe something that you want to keep but I felt you were in control of the decisions you were making. And I

Julia  22:29  
bet I was more so for having waited Yeah, because I know my rushed energy at this like Hyper Energy about me yeah, that I actually I think I was really just trying to outsource help for anything and everything in my life it was like I'll get someone to do that. So I bet I was thinking I'm just assuming now I bet I was thinking because of the way the way when you came in that you said I was like go have a look around and just you know I almost wanted you to just do it for me yeah. So that it was done but actually the process when I was back and we worked through everything together because like you say of course you're going to work with the person made it the kind of experience that it needed to be that it should be

Ingrid  23:11  
yeah we touched everything didn't we until the paper clips and the right

Julia  23:16  
thing in the tiniest drawer and I remember your your lovely assistant just having loads of stuff around her and she you know we just be lifting things up like this keep this No Yes Which bag does this go in and write down honestly to the to the tiny little paperclip and also the fridge I remember and this is why it's a problem shared right a problem shared is a problem to have they say and to to have mentioned to you that I was missing my fridge door shelf that had broken off i don't know i don't even know how that came up but having told you about that you recommend it this website East bears oh my gosh, you showed me like oh yeah, just you just look up this like barcode thing that's on the fridge and and then the it offered all the kinds of components of that item online and I ordered myself a new fridge door shelf. Yeah, thanks to you an extra

Ingrid  24:18  
little thing that I think I think it came out of frustration because I think you were making us a cup of coffee and you were trying to shove the milk in the thing and I'm like what do you do when you put a competence in my door because the shelf in my fridge doors broken? I'm like cooking over fridge shelf on on each parish and you're like, huh, yeah. Just each verse was coded or coma records UK and you can just order it did yeah, yeah. Because stuffing the milk not in between shells is just

Julia  24:47  
silly things like that. You just I was you know, being on my own. All of a sudden you just you realise there's things that you don't tackle because you're just like, I don't know, probably. I didn't think something like that even existed, but of course it does. But yeah, I needed You did tell me about it much like I needed you to tell me about recipe books that I had the way you said, you know, you'll probably just Google it. Who still uses cooking books? I don't know. I know people do. But I don't. And if I was going to make something the way you said it, you know, you just you were holding the books. And I think you just looked at me because I could get rid of them. And maybe I hesitated and you're like, you know, you're probably probably just Google it. You could look up a recipe. That's so true.

Ingrid  25:31  
There's just I know you call them Ingrid isms?

Julia  25:34  
Yes, all of a sudden, you come up with something that's just so like, of course, like you this common sense that it's so refreshing. Skipping ahead to, to do another visit where there was some there's a little tricky thing hanging from a hook. And it was just what a useless thing. And I remember just looking at me, and you just kind of your like, charity for the charity shop. And you just, I was kind of homing in on I didn't like, I don't know, is this something that I should be getting rid of? I don't know. Like, I look to you, which is nice to look to someone. And I'm up for it for you to tell you for you to kind of give me a nudge that little bit of a push. I think you through studying me, I think you could tell how to work with me. Tell me I just needed that little bit of you know, so the way you looked at me like, charity. Right? Like I'm gonna think of course, right. Then I'm like, Oh, yes. Thank you. Thank you for just Yeah, making that happen.

Ingrid  26:28  
I know. I just I'm very directly my clients.

Julia  26:32  
Love it. Love it. I love that kind of that style. You have.

Ingrid  26:36  
Oh, thank you. Yeah, it's been just a dream to work with you really? I think that that's first and second visits. We also talked about the quilts. Because of course, we found David church didn't wait. And you said to me, Ingrid, I really would love to make a quilt.

Julia  26:52  
Yes, I had vacuum sealed, like 25 of his work shirt. Yeah.

Ingrid  26:56  
And I actually thought, Oh, my God would have been a lovely idea to do that. And I knew I'd heard about a company doing this. So I think it's called patchwork patchwork castle. And I've seen the quilt No, and it's absolutely gorgeous. Oh, my God

Julia  27:12  
is special that is special. And I keep that wrapped up. You've seen it's in the fabric bag that it came in, up on a high shelf so that Max doesn't get anywhere near it until he's old enough to understand how special it is. There's no spilling things on it. But yeah, that was a real sense of like achievement and something that I really wanted to do. Yeah. And you help that that happen.

Ingrid  27:30  
So we work twice together. You also mentioned several times I think it's because it's after baby as well. You're like I don't have anything to wear and and I said you know, why don't you do because a friend of mine had done a personal stylist and I said maybe maybe check out a personal studies, maybe you just need to refigure out who you are after everything you've been through. And being a new mom. I mean, we all struggle. What do I still fit in? What do I wear as a mum and I've got a cupboard full of work clothes. And but that's not very practical. When you've got a three month old baby trying to crawl up the floor.

Julia  28:01  
It's not nice when you don't feel good in yourself. And it is hard after a baby. I remember like David's funeral just I was like, I had a baby like five, six weeks ago. And I just felt you know, the frumpiness and I had all these, I had to see all these people and it was horrible. Feeling uncomfortable in myself. In such a horrible time in my life. Also, like there was just layers of crap that I just was trying I think when I talked about out trying to outsource, like, I just wanted to get things I just want things done like getting a personal trainer. It's like can you just fix me in grade? Can you please just fix my house like I'm sick of just feeling out of control. So the stylist was a goal I was setting for myself when we talked about it. And you brought up someone that you knew. That was my goal for in the in the new year. It was like it once I've done all these things to the flat and I'm getting myself back in shape. I'm going to treat myself. And you also helped that along you really did swoop it you're like a you're married. You are

Ingrid  29:06  
well people have been wondering what on earth I get out of my purse every time. There's everything back.

Julia  29:13  
So because it's not just decluttering with you is ahead. It's not it's light, it's life. It's everything that comes with life because all the clutter represents Well, I think in many ways you would know. What you see is people's lives reflected in how they're living in the stuff that they have and how they keep it and manage it.

Ingrid  29:30  
So we worked twice with my assistant and we felt good about it. You felt good about it. Max was little Mexico. So normal was happy. And then time to Sunday goes by and then I get an email or a phone call from you at the ingredients time that you come back. Yeah, and that happened just only a couple of months ago but recently wasn't it? That was really

Julia  29:53  
really, really timber really. So

Ingrid  29:56  
what happened you you did some travelling I believe

Julia  30:00  
Yes, yes. following year, I did travel a bit. And just I never forgot, because I was reminded of you through how I lived in my flat and seeing the systems we put in place. And I would notice if a drawer that had been fantastic to the medicine drawer in the hallway, when I could feel that it wasn't how we had put it, like it was starting to starting to happen. And I didn't want to let it all get away from me again. And I was trying to keep the house as clutter free as possible. But I could just feel how it needed this next level attention paid to it like I was ready for like, this next phase, I didn't even know what it was, I didn't even know what was I was feeling or what I was really wanting to achieve. But I felt incomplete about the flatten like we had started something and it and it needed to carry on. So I'd also watched there's a documentary on Netflix, I think it's called the minimalist. And having seen some of that I just craved more freedom from stuff, but I didn't I just didn't know how to get there. So I'd attempt to get rid of things. But then I did worry about the possibility of meeting and at some point because if we didn't check it a year ago, it was like why didn't try to remember like I keeping hold of this for something. And I kept putting off doing any kind of declutter session myself, because the same reasons as before, I would think I could and I sort of plan to on a certain day, and then it was really obvious to me that, you know, I just wasn't up for that the whole thing on my own. I just needed you back back in the flag because I knew things would get accomplished. And when you came I remember not being sure how to articulate what I was trying to achieve. So you can tell me what how that was for you. But I just knew there were there were things in every room in the house that I didn't need. And I knew you would help me make sense of how to get rid of it and we would just do it I just I just needed that that guidance that push from you. So what was that like for you?

Ingrid  31:57  
I think I'll find you much calmer this time around. Also much slimmer as well. I could see the work the trainer the personal trainer worked out much much calmer in your in your eyes and in your the way you were even greeting me. I was like wow, you know, there's there's there's a person who's now had a year later, you could really see that difference.

Julia  32:22  
He walked in and it was just me. Right? Oh, you locked in? Max at nursery? I don't need people over all the time for that company for security. Yes, yeah, you would have come in and it was just me here. It's so

Ingrid  32:34  
open. And so love luck. It felt so good to see you again. And it's exactly what you're saying you are you're like England, I've got you here, but I'm not totally sure why. And I don't know where to start. And I said okay, all right. Let's just talk through this. You know, what's the reason why I want some less stuff? I feel really, I felt really good about it. Declutter last year. But now I see that are things that I haven't used in the past year. And I'm now ready to take that next level. And that is so true, I think in the decluttering journey. decluttering is not a good one. So we never do it. Again. It's a journey. And for some people, it is because they bought stuff, they have to go back because they need to clear out again, while for you it was more a sense of I've realised to myself that spending time with people and everything almost that's free is far more important than the stuff in my house. And I want to now go to a next deeper level of having less stuff. And I've now found out because I have less stuff since last year. I've even more realised what I actually use what I don't use at all. Yes, yeah. And you also said something. Yeah. And I've got pillows and duvet on the floor, and I've got no home for them. And so you were kind of guiding me around that. I said, Ryan, let's just get started. And we just thinned it out. We still had a car full of stuff. But we did the whole flat and everywhere we went, we just thinned it out a little bit more. And we started with hats and scarves. Because the Winter's coming and we're like, you know what, I need eight umbrellas. One or two umbrellas is enough. And I don't need 12 scarves and hats to choose from two is enough. Yeah. So we just we went if we pop from one thing to the next and send it out a little bit more,

Julia  34:21  
I remember as well mentioning that I had a lot of things that I felt I was holding on to just in case a lot of items. It's like well, maybe you know, this is something that I might need. And an Ingrid ism was, if you really need it, you can go and buy it or you probably know someone who has it and you can borrow it to me, and it was like, yep, there she goes again. That's exactly right. We don't we don't need a lot of things that we think well, just in case I need it. I'll keep hold of it.

Ingrid  34:54  
Yeah, that. I think it's also declutter, when you declutter. It's not about getting everything 100 represent perfect, but I want people who do declutter that they feel happy about the decision they've made. And do you sometimes regret a one or two decisions? Yes. Where people were normal people where we take, we take the best decision at the time that we make it. And sometimes late within, you know, that would have been handy if I still have that. Okay. If you really realise it was that important, you can always buy it again. And, of course, you know, as well as I do, I don't promote shopping at all, because I don't think we need a lot. But it's also people get so caught up in the world, if I make the wrong decision. You never get anything done. So I think it's really important to be realistic. It's all

Julia  35:45  
about what the person wants to do and get rid of or not. And because you did it that way, a year later, I could see for myself, the decisions I've made. Yeah, because you hadn't pushed anything. So when we came across some of David's shirts that I'd held back, found them in like a random bag and white shirts of his had gone yellow. Those were things, some of his things that I'd kept some of his comfy clothes. I realised a year later, I hadn't worn them like I thought I would I pictured myself cuddling up snuggling up in his in his clothes as something I might want from my grief. And I hadn't done that. I know, he'd be glad that I didn't do that. He wouldn't want that for me. So seeing like his white shirts that have gone yellow. And, and, and just knowing that it was okay, now. Now for them to go. Yeah. So last year, I'm actually really glad I didn't. I did hold some things back that then a year later, I was more than happy to say to you like no, this is it's time you've been like a measuring stick in many ways for my grief, to see how far I've come where I'm at. And it's it's like people should see you at least once a year, you should be this annual check in check in with Ingrid, you know, like, particularly particularly for my grief. You telling me how I've changed what you've seen your observations and me knowing and myself. And seeing seeing David some of David's things and being ready to let them go later has been part of my whole grief process. Yeah, who would have thought?

Ingrid  37:22  
And it's also interesting what you find, isn't it when you when you start going through everything again. I mean, I remember opening up picnic baskets with lots of sweets, and we're like, oh my

Julia  37:33  
gosh, that was on top of a really high cupboard. And that was sweets. I've gotten a bunch of candies, David's favourite things. When I done a trip back to Toronto, and I brought a bunch of stuff back and we had a stash away. So that we didn't have too much of it. We were sort of rationing it. And we found that Yeah. And that was weird. That was weird. But I got rid of obviously a throat those candies and the picnic basket. Because when have I ever? Like why it's you know, there's things you have it? How did that not go in the first decluttering session?

Ingrid  38:05  
We also had a bit of a chuckle about your toiletries didn't worry about the travel toiletries in your bathroom. Yes.

Julia  38:12  
Yes. And that was very much I think that's where it came from your Ingrid ism about if you if you really need it and go buy it. Or you said, if someone comes to stay, they they'll probably bring their own or or they could use yours. Like they like shampoos and conditioners, I had these little toiletries that you keep when you go to hotels and stuff and you kind of think now I'll use those. And the way you just kind of said like if some because when friends come and stay, they don't use them. They never have. Yeah, why would you secure at someone's house? If you're in my shower? Do you use my bigger bottles of shampoo and conditioner? It's not like oh, here here, I've held back some of these little mini toiletries for you know, travel toiletries for you just for you while you stay at my house. So you helped show me how ridiculous that kind of is. For me.

Ingrid  39:02  
I think it's all the questions. Isn't it? This the question that I asked you? Why Why? Why are you keeping this here? And does it make sense to keep it here? Can I make a suggestion to put it somewhere else? And

Julia  39:15  
honestly Ingrid, the way you you say certain things deliver the questions is almost like probably like in counselling where you're not meant you don't give the advice you help the person find their own answer their own way. And that's kind of what I think happens with you is you ask something in such a way that it's like it makes the answer so obvious. The way you just said like you know when you'd say something like do does does this need to go here and you would ask it in a way that for me the the answer is so obvious but you didn't say this shouldn't go here. You don't come in and say oh, don't do it. Like don't put this here. I recommend you do this because of this. You know you don't tell you just you show it show like this it should this be here? Yeah. But you already know the answer. Because you know that I'm going to figure out that answer by how you delivered the question. So anyway, going on about that a bit too much, but it's the way you do it, your style is just, I just love it.

Ingrid  40:13  
So we are where we are Julia? Hmm. Last year and this year. So where are you currently,

Julia  40:24  
I will say that I actually don't think I've achieved the level of minimalism that I quite want to achieve. Because I can see how our day to day lives do just bring, I don't want to, I don't want to say junk into the flat. But you know, things life just brings things in slowly, gradually, you almost don't notice it happening. So it's hard to stop it from happening. But I do notice more. So I have a better have much better grip on on all of this now. And I feel better when I just know that there isn't a bunch of stuff sitting in my house, I because I feel the weight of that psychologically, like even if I'm not at home, if I'm out and I just I there's something about that where I just feel freer, if I know that the flat isn't holding me like it's holding me down in a place that would be harder to get away from. So I want to feel as though I could up in this what I think I said to you, when you came this most recent visit, I want to feel as though I could up and take off with maximum and adventure without needing anything, I wouldn't want to feel like oh, I've got you know, I want this feeling of freedom that I could just go go out into the world and do whatever I want with my life without having to worry about all my things. And I don't want to feel tied to a place because the stuff I have there, I just really want David in my heart, Max and a few essentials, because that's what I now understand is all I need. And I'd actually really like to be able to offer Max growing up this sense of freedom that will allow him to move through life with ease and without the weight of our loss, you know, through David's stuff lying around, like keeping us keeping us where we are. So I'd like to provide him with a feeling of anything's possible. And the world is there for him to explore and encourage him to, to take more of an interest in what's out there rather than a stuff he owns inside his house. So I really want to thank you Ingrid so much for helping me to make space for my grief, and for helping me to make space to see clearly what's important to me, and how little we really need to get the most out of life. And basically just what you do liberates people from a belief that our possessions are what's adding value to our life. We can add our own value to our life from within we are sort of all we need. And people and experiences are what add value. And we clutter up our lives and and Ingrid helps clear our paths so we can get out of our own way and live life to the fullest. To thank you.

Ingrid  43:11  
You're very very welcome. So listeners. That's it for this episode. We hope you've all enjoyed listening. Oh, Ingrid.

Julia  43:20  
Oh, no, I've set her off. Now I'm going to keep going. It's so important what you do in grid. It's really very giving it you give yourself to people and their situations and vulnerability. You know, you walked into my life. I was broken. And I am so grateful that you are who you are and that you want to help people in the way that you want to help people because decluttering is so much more than just like, Oh, I'm going to throw out some stuff in my house

Ingrid  43:52  
that that is definitely true. And that is definitely true listeners. I mean, it's all about those. It's a journey. And it's all about making space for what's really, really important. So, listen to it. Again. Let's try again. That's it for this episode. So thank you so much that we hope you've all enjoyed listening and are inspired to take action. listeners. Are you struggling with a loved one's belongings and has this podcast giving you food for thought. That's all I can hope for. Thank you so much for being here with us. And if you'd like to get more tips and advice, please follow us on social media. We are on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook as at declutter hub, and we have a lively supportive Facebook group where we can check all things clutter. Search for the declutter app community. We'd love to see you there. Don't forget our fantastic membership. We're offering step by step online courses live q&a sessions and a membership community. Have a look on members multicultural.com For more information, I'm sorry, I'm sniffing in the in the in the microphone. If you don't want to miss the next week episode, please subscribe to the declutter hub podcasts. on Apple podcasts, Spotify and Stitcher, and it will pop into your notifications that each Friday this week. See you next time.

Outro  45:07  
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Recent Posts
Episode 322 – How to avoid Black Friday shopping Don’t Buy Ask Why

Episode 321 – The secrets of organisation when you have ADHD with Ian Anderson Gray

Episode 320 – What is clutter blindness and how to fix it?

Episode 319 – Katie Mortram from Good Housekeeping chats all things clutter

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Chris says:

30 September 2024 at 4:35 PM

Ingrid,
Last week you mentioned a favourite podcast you did (No. 58) with guest Julia Kirby. I have just finished listening to it and just wanted to say what an honest, raw and lovely interview it was. Julia sounds a beautiful soul who didn't deserve the cards she was dealt at such a young age and I am so glad that you were there for her and had such an obvious relationship with her (including sharing having sons called Max!)

I was going to join a Success Session just now but the podcast has made me quite emotional, I think because I faced losing my partner 15 years ago and have lived with this uncertainty ever since as his type of cancer is incurable. I don't often dwell on it but listening to Julia and you on this podcast today has been quite therapeutic for me – I just hope I can capture even a small percentage of her strength. Thank you. xx

Reply
1. Ingrid Jansen says:
  
  30 September 2024 at 7:44 PM
  
  Thank you so much Chris for sharing with us. I'm so sorry to hear about your partner and giving you big hugs. xx
  
  Reply
V says:

2 June 2020 at 8:50 PM

Wow! Thank you. Really needed to hear that Julia. Davids words on honouring his Dad in his own life rather than surrounding himself with his Dads things really hit a cord as my Dad passed away nearly 2 years ago & I find it so hard to let go of things he loved. But so much else in what you & Ingrid said made perfect sense, perfect sense that I hope will inspire me too on my journey. Thank you & bless you x

Reply
1. Ingrid Jansen says:
  
  3 June 2020 at 8:50 PM
  
  Thank you so much V for commenting. This was a very special podcast to record and I’m so glad it resonated with you. So sorry for your loss and give yourself time to go through your dad’s items. All my warmest, Ingrid
  
  Reply
Episode 58 – Making space to grieve with guest Julia Kirby

Episode 322 – How to avoid Black Friday shopping Don’t Buy Ask Why

Episode 321 – The secrets of organisation when you have ADHD with Ian Anderson Gray

Episode 320 – What is clutter blindness and how to fix it?

Episode 319 – Katie Mortram from Good Housekeeping chats all things clutter

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