Episode 136 – Judgement and how it affects us

In today’s episode we are talking about judgement and how it affects us. People feel overwhelmed because of their clutter but also because they have been judged all their lives. People judge you because they don’t understand.
Episode 372 – The Opposite of Swedish Death Cleaning with Guest Alison Binney
Episode 371 – 10 Areas of Your Home Where the 80/20 Principle of Decluttering is Holding You Back
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Transcript of this podcast episode
Intro  0:07  
Welcome to today's episode of The Declutter Hub Podcast, your channel for super easy, no nonsense advice on how to declutter and organise your home. Please welcome your host, professional organisers, Ingrid Jansen, and Lesley Spellman.

Ingrid  0:32  
Hello, and welcome listeners to Episode 136 of the developer hub Podcast. I'm Ingrid. And I'm Lesley, if you have clutter and want to sort it out, this is the show for you. Now, in today's episode, Lesley and I are talking about judgement and how it affects us. Lesley, we have a lot of talk.

Lesley  0:57  
We do have a lot to talk about, because it's a very debilitating thing that other people then do to us, isn't it? So people who have been overwhelmed with clutter for periods of their life, continually feel judged. And I know that a lot of people that are listening today will have felt that at some point, even though it might just be temporarily, or it might have been all their life. And that is hard to deal with.

Ingrid  1:24  
Yes. And I think we see that in our Facebook group, we see that in our membership. We see that in our own clients that we work with. I mean, this is not something we kind of thought, oh, yeah, no, we we've seen the fallout of that happened. We

Lesley  1:42  
Yeah, I think it's probably the most powerful emotion, negative emotion then surrounding clutter, actually. And I say powerful because it, it takes over our lives and our psyche makes us more anxious, you know, can cause depression, those kinds of things. So judgement. So this is kind of probably quite hard hitting podcast, this is not fun, a fun podcast, although we'll try our best to bring the fun into it. But I don't know, because it's a very, very serious issue. So I think here at the declutter, hub, we are very, you know, we do like to try and make things light hearted, don't when we talk about bringing fun into decluttering. Because we absolutely think that the solution is to make the process fun. But whilst we recognise very much that what sits behind it is very, very serious sometimes, isn't it?

Ingrid  2:31  
Yeah. I couldn't agree more. I mean, you, you see that very much. So in the live q&a We do every other week with our members, where they ask us always such in depth questions about a lot of the reasons behind the clutter. We talk a lot about as well. And and why it is so hard to declutter, and, and how to deal with all the emotions that people come across when they declutter their homes.

Lesley  2:57  
Yeah, I think it's important, isn't it to understand the why as well. Because once you understand the why, and sometimes this can be a really long journey to understand the why some people have got a very good grasp of traumas and things that have gone on in their lives or difficult situations or experiences or environments that they've been brought up in, that have added to the clutter situation in their own home. And it's working through that some people understand it and want to move forward and are able to do that. And other people, it gradually those light bulbs go on in a very gradual way, don't they Ingrid? And so it's interesting. So we just wanted to take the opportunity to talk about this, because sometimes we do bring the phone and we talk about this and that and we talk about herbs and spices and all those kinds of things. And it's important to remember that there are quite deep seated issues for many, many people sitting behind all this. Yeah, and I think

Ingrid  3:53  
I don't think people sometimes realise that it's a judgement that really has a grip on their their heart and their mind is it they think is always about the clutter and about the stuff? Well, once you start to kind of declutter all the kind of emotions connected to the stuff come out.

Lesley  4:15  
Yeah, I mean, the people that judge people with clutter, let's be kind and say that the reason why they tend to judge people, is because they don't really understand the condition of it. I'm not just talking about hoarding here as well. I mean, obviously, we're gonna allude to hoarding tendencies and hoarding disorder through this, but we're talking about large amounts of clutter or an overwhelming amount of clutter in your home that makes you feel bad. Basically, that is not adding to your positive well being, let's call it that. So, you know, we're not just talking about hoarding, so don't switch off if you think, Oh, well, I've not got hoarding disorder, and that's not me, because, you know, we gather things along the way there are so many things along the way that happened that caused us to to take our eye off the ball sometimes aren't there in our homes, our homes are not our priority anymore because of what some other thing and life can throw some mean things along the way to us. And for many people, that is a catalogue of things, you know, it's not just one thing. It's an accumulation of many things on top of each other. And we all have our own version of what that looks like. And it causes us to take our eye off the ball in terms of managing our homes. That's when clutter starts to build. And then that's when the judgement starts from other people who don't understand. So people who very much have that in control, you know, they they know how to declutter, they don't have a problem with it. tidiness, routines. decluttering is a standard part of their lives. And there's a lack of understanding as to why other people can't be like that as well.

Ingrid  5:45  
Yeah, and I think on top of that, Lesley, of course, when you look at magazines, social media, TV, it's all about you see, there's like perfect homes and rooms and cupboards all the time. And it's like, almost the thinking that everybody needs to live like that. And everybody is expected to uphold all these massive standards that are just, it's just not possible to do.

Lesley  6:16  
Yeah, and and the flip side to that, of course, is if we think about where some people do get an insight into what happens is the TV shows that we like to watch some of us don't like to watch them. And they are very sensationalist in the way that they tend to explain the background into clutter. So they will go into the worst room, they will be sensationalist in the way that they produce those shows, because it's TV and it's entertainment. And I completely get that. But that doesn't help either. Because, you know, it's a kind of voyeuristic look into the world of somebody that's struggling with something which let's face it, is a mental health condition for many, many people or is wrapped up in a mental health condition, at the very least. And people then sensationalise that, and that doesn't help matters either. So we've got this kind of Instagram Pinterest, vying up against kind of the hoarder next door or a TV show like that, where it's very sensationalist. It's hard, you know, to to find a middle ground and to understand. And so I, you know, we're lucky because we understand it, because this is the job that we do. But many people have not had the experiences and heard the background to people situations that we have.

Ingrid  7:31  
And I think on top of that, the people might sometimes who maybe judge the hardest, they are very organised themselves. So they just can't put themselves in somebody else's shoes, and they just don't get it. Like, it's just to just tidy up a little bit. And you just do this, this and this and this, and, and they're almost like, they just can't get their head around that for some people. It's a real struggle to get to a more organised state in their house.

Lesley  8:01  
Yeah. And you know, and we say almost all times that we, you know, people are good at different things. There are lots of things. We are good at decluttering, we are good at organising, we keep our lives ticking over. But we're not. We're not good at crafting, for example. I'm not that good at cooking. Well, no, I'm just trying to think of some example. There's a lot. I'm like, why can I not think of something that I'm not good at? Because there's loads of things that I'm not good at. But I'm just saying we aren't good at that side of things. But there are many things in our lives that we're not good at. It's important to understand that if you fall short on the kind of organising gene, if there is such a thing, then there will be countless ways that you're making up for that in other areas of your life.

Ingrid  8:42  
Yeah, yeah, I'm with you, Lesley. I've not got one creative bone in my body. So I'm with you. I'm always in awe of people who make the most wonderful things, I think, Wow. I just could never do that. So creative, and I just probably don't have the patience for it. But on the other, I have lots of patience for organising.

Lesley  9:01  
We all have our things dealt with that make us tick. I think we have to understand that different people have got different things in their lives that make them tick. The other thing that I wanted to say about judgement, is it sometimes it's those closest to us who judges the most harshly and so, but that comes from a place of wanting to fix a problem that people realise is debilitating and realise is having a negative effect. But sometimes it comes across as judgement, doesn't it? And so, our nearest and dearest can judge us very, very harshly. And that is, you know, it's hard enough in the outside world being judged. But it's very hard when that happens in our own family and friends circle, isn't it?

Ingrid  9:41  
Yeah, for sure. I mean, we've heard countless stories of well meaning friends trying to help but then they say something and it can completely get taken the wrong way. It can be a sister or a mum or a mother in law, who always makes that possibly snidey comments or can never just kind of be empathetic but always is really harsh of the ball and cannot kind of say kind words, instead of kind of offering help, they think by going, well just come on, let's just tidy it up. That is helpful. While it's not.

Lesley  10:19  
I mean, sometimes it can be, of course, and so we're not saying don't ever have friends and family over to help you. But our experience for the most part is that that can be quite harsh, because what there is, when you've got those people that are very close to you is there's an association, and there's a history that sits behind it. And so the person that's helping wants you to be a certain way. And ultimately, that comes from a place because they know that will ultimately be good for you. But it's the getting there. That's difficult, isn't it, because, you know, you have your you know, the person that's helping has their own agenda about what they want that room to look like at the end of the day. And if that's going to then involve throwing lots of things away, that's going to happen. And you are undoubtedly not comfortable with those decisions. But because it's somebody that's close to you, that's trying to help you, you feel obliged to make decisions that you're not comfortable with, and you feel obliged to go at a pace that you're not comfortable with. And that's when it's hard. But the problem with that, of course, is that it builds up more anxiety, more fear, and more resentment. And it makes you cling on to things or buy things even more than you did before. So it can be quite damaging. Not always, but it can be quite damaging. But that's definitely something that we see a lot the damage that's caused by people going behind someone's back potentially even and throwing things away without their agreement, or trying to force them down a route of getting rid of things before they are comfortable with that. It's hard, isn't it? Ingrid?

Ingrid  11:52  
Yeah, there's lots of thoughts going through my mind, because we've seen that, haven't we. And then when people finally have the courage to reach out, for example, to work with us as professional organisers, a lot of them the questions are, are you You know, you're not going to throw anything away without me knowing, right? Or what are you putting in the bag, or, you know, they want a level of control, because probably in other circumstances before they felt out of control, and well, meaning people around them have kind of tried to snug things out. And then that goes to get that it makes it worse, doesn't it? Yeah, it

Lesley  12:33  
does it. Honestly, it's so hard. And it's kind of it's quite difficult to explain, isn't it when you've not worked with people that like this, but hopefully, if this is something that you will have dealt with yourself, or that you are that person who has felt judged, and it will resonate with you, I was thinking good when you are talking about people reaching out for help with as professional organisers whether that's one to one or in the decluttered membership. It's a big leap of faith for a lot of people because you that judgement that you felt from for all your life doesn't go away easily. And so you're still nervous about making that leap. And trust in someone. It's all about trust, ultimately. And if you've had that trust broken by somebody who's judge you harshly, and you feel that it's very hard to just say, oh, that's fine, these people are going to be nice, and they're going to help me I'm going to do that. And they're not going to judge me at all. Your natural instinct is going to be the anybody that walks into my house or sees the rooms in my house is going to judge me harshly because that's what's always happened before. I mean, quite often the line that I use, when people rink me, I always say, if you don't have clutter, I don't have a job. And all of a sudden they're like, oh, yeah, do not mean I'm here because you have clutter. And so why would it be in my interest to judge you harshly for what they were doesn't it doesn't make any sense. I can't help you and judge you at the same time. It's absolutely a non judgement zone. And that's the most important thing. If you can take the judgement away, then we would all make such bigger steps wouldn't weigh.

Ingrid  14:07  
Yeah. And I think what you're seeing is right, allegedly, I think it's it's so much about trust. And as you know, as well as I do that, in the in the past, we've trained many, many professional organisers here in the UK to become professional organisers. And one of the things we say it's always, it's not about the end result that you want. It's about what the client wants. The client is in charge. You are not there to make these beautiful, Instagram worthy pictures in the client's house. You're there so a client feels happy and safe and has a sense of well being in their own homes and they can find the items. Of course if you can create beautiful cupboards. That is a wonderful bonus, but the main anything why we're there is to help clients go through their clutter and find out what's important to them. And, and help them that way.

Lesley  15:10  
Yeah. And I think you're right England as well, you know, it just sort of took me back to some of those training courses that we ran. And even people who have made that decision that they want to make that leap into running a professional organising business, the light bulbs go on when they realise how deep seated emotions are at the core of the job that we do. And that actually, it's not about tidying up and organising and throwing things away. Yes, that's like a byproduct of what we do, what we do is we get to the to the heart, yes, of course, there are some people that don't have any emotional response, it's just a busyness that has caused their clutter. And they just want to fix that. But many, many people have these deep seated emotions, and those need to be managed carefully. And with empathy, and non judgement.

Ingrid  15:58  
Yeah. And I think, you know, when you work with somebody, you build up that trust that takes time, you they can't, you can't go from, you know, from somebody who they've never met before. So I always try to, you know, in the beginning, especially in the beginning, I show every tiny little bit that I come across, and I think, oh, this could possibly be thrown away, because it needs to be recycled, or it's broken, or whatever, and show it to my clients. Because I need to make sure that I build up that trust with them that they go, okay, England, is not going to behind my back. So secretly snuck something in, in a beanbag when I'm not looking, because trust, I think, is the basis of everything. And I think when you've got family members, well, meaning friends who kind of, oh, just I'll just throw it away. When she's done when she's making a cup of tea up to quickly throw it in the bin, then people of course, get issues of wanting to check the bags before it gets thrown away. And then items can be found. And, you know, it was we were just talking about it weren't we there was this programme on television. And there was these two lads who were helping this woman bring put stuff in a skip. And they, of course, as for every TV show, throw away something that she hadn't seen or that she didn't make a proper decision about. And there she went, she was taking it out of the skip. And she's like, I didn't sort through it. I didn't look at it. And immediately it took a long time again, to build up that trust. And there was had to be very clear rules. This indeed can go and be thrown away. And this still have to do because if you go too quick, too many mistakes are made and then then anxiety is too high of what I want to hold on to this because the trust is gone.

Lesley  17:41  
Yeah, definitely. And I think I think it was a professional organiser that came in on that TV show was a British TV show wasn't it's a professional organiser that came in and brought the emotional understanding that was required for that job. And it was nice to see that on a TV show, as well as sometimes that's not done. Not all of them. There are some that are fantastic. But there are many, many TV shows that are a real hard watch for us as organisers because we see the damage done ongoing damage that they potentially cause.

Ingrid  18:11  
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's a fine balance between wanting to help somebody but there's, sometimes there's too much speed. And people need time to get their head around their thinking. And that's why we know from experience, that decluttering, an organiser is a longer process. And those thoughts about feeling judged for years and years, that cannot be taken away with two days of decluttering and escape and a couple of, you know, strong guys shuffling stuff back and forward. It takes time. But of course, it looks amazing on television. I mean, we know that it has to be squeezed into a 25 minute programme. And that probably they've been there for you know, two weeks, and there's help and there's people behind the scenes. But that's not what you see. So there's a lot of times in mistaken of how it works in almost real life. And it was so nice to see the professional organiser kind of bring a calm towards the proceedings and how understanding she was to the couple as well that she was helping and and everyone who just showed the whole kind of oh, okay, fine. This is not it felt more in control.

Lesley  19:24  
Yeah, definitely. So we'd like to talk about so we've talked about the judgement. And I'm sure there's lots of people who are like, Yes, that's me. So what can you do to kind of fix that or get over that issue of being judged? So what can you do as an individual, to tell other people to let other people understand the way you're feeling? How do we get over this feeling of being judged and move forward with our decluttering journey?

Ingrid  19:52  
I think that is a very difficult question Lesley. Because I think the person who has clutter has probably been quite secretive, secretive about their clutter, because they've been feeling judged. They don't want to tell anybody and they don't want to let anybody in. So it's all about slowly but surely kind of taking that wall that guard, you've build up down a little bit, piece by piece, chunk by chunk, and slowly but surely acts accepting help, but also being very firm about what your own boundaries are. I think that's really important.

Lesley  20:32  
Yeah, definitely. So if somebody does want to help you, you probably need to explain a little bit about that's fine. And I will take your help. But we want to do it in short, short bursts of time. Rome wasn't built in a day, can we do you know, short sessions, I want to make sure I'm fully in control. I'm the one that's making all the decisions about what staying and what's going. And you're there to empower me because there is something very empowering about having somebody with you to kind of encourage you to make a decision there. And then, and so we don't want these decisions produced to sped up. But there is something about, oh, well, I'll just think about that later that we do when we're on our own that we don't do when somebody else is with us, even if that decision is that it stays. And Ingrid and I are always like, if you're unsure of a decision, keep it don't let it go. Because that's when you make mistakes. And that's when you worry about the mistakes. And that's where the fear comes in. And the worry, and you always think back about the mistakes that you made in the past. And then that makes you more fearful going forward. We could sit here and say that you can have honest conversations with people and tell them how you're feeling and how you're feeling judged with some of the vocabulary that you're they're using some of the kind of raising of the eyebrows, and they're doing some of the talking behind your back that they're doing. But we need to be honest with as many people would not feel competent enough to have those conversations. Unfortunately, that would be the nice thing to say. And that will be the obvious thing to say. But the reality is, people are probably not going to do it because there are relationships that come into play them much more deep seated from one thing, you know what I mean? So I think it's about what you can do. And so Ingrid's absolutely right, if you are going to accept help from anybody, lay those boundaries down, it's really important. Don't feel scared to take that leap into professional help as well. Because sometimes to strip out that personal connection is really important. And and if you get somebody who completely understands where you're coming from, that's going to be a positive thing as well. So I think that's useful as well, isn't it? And to not be so hard on yourself to understand where that's coming from, and to not judge yourself? You know, we've talked, we've talked about other people judging us, we've not really spoken about the fact that we judge ourselves very, very harshly, don't we, Ingrid?

Ingrid  22:51  
Yeah, I think we, we have, there's so much negative self talk, you know, oh, gosh, I'm so stupid. Why can't I do that? Every time we're beating ourselves down? Or, Oh, well, I can't believe I can't do that. I'm so silly. Or while I'm not clever enough, or it's so negative. And I saw a lovely post on I think was a fellow professional organisers timeline, and I think it was this morning. And she said, if if you say to yourself, I can't do it, or I am not able to do it, just put the word yet behind it. I can't do it yet. I don't know it yet. I'm not ready to do it yet. And that way, you're giving grace to yourself, and feel it's okay that I can't do it yet, I will be able to. And I think then you can give yourself a lot more trust and confidence that you will get there.

Lesley  23:57  
So Ingrid, we've talked about not judging yourself. And we've talked about maybe having some conversations or trying to encourage other people not to judge it or to set boundaries out. And so it takes me back. And so you know, we've talked about judgement. And I think we need we need to think about what was this podcast all about? What's the takeaway from it? So for me, then I think it was about explaining to people who feel alone in this journey, feel like nobody else is as bad as they are in terms of the clutter, feeling like everybody else can do it, and I can't you need to be kind to yourself. We talk about kindness all time and it's the first step of decluttering is being kind to yourself. And so it's hard we know that it's hard to get over those if people are mean you know, bottom line is people who are judging you or being mean to you, and it's hard to try and kind of work through that and then be kind to yourself, but it starts with being kind to yourself and understanding yourself understanding what's gone on in your life that's brought you to this point? You know, have you got a mental health issue? Have you had trauma in the past? Do you suffer from anxiety? Are you depressed? Do you have fibromyalgia? Do you have ADHD? Are you autistic? Have you suffered great loss or bereavement? Have you got five kids that you've got to look after every day, I could go on and on and on with all of the things that make life hard. And I don't need to tell anybody. But those are just some of the things that mean that life gets in the way of us achieving our goals. And I think that's it. So be kind to yourself, and don't let other people get you down and stop you from going forward with your goals.

Ingrid  25:40  
Yeah, and I think what we really hope is that this podcast will get you out of that feeling of isolation, that you are not alone, and that there are lots of people out there who suffer with clutter, too. And together, you can help each other and work towards a positivity, I think that can help you move forwards. And we really want to invite you to join our Facebook group, because it's such a lovely community of like minded people who all struggle with clutter and want to help each other. And are, it's such a kind, wonderful group. And I think that can be a wonderful first start to kind of go unless you're listening to this podcast, come and join our Facebook group, we would love to see you there.

Lesley  26:30  
Yeah, you're completely right. And we're because people love our Facebook group, for the very reason that no one judges anybody in there. There's no judgement in there, you know, and if there is judgement, then we as admins look at that quite harshly, don't we, but fingers crossed, we haven't really had to deal with that very often because it is a really lovely, non judgmental, kind, supportive group. And so I think the first step on this journey, as you say, is find in your people find in your community, don't feel isolated. Join our Facebook group, join in our free challenges, where there's a community of like minded people join our membership, where we've got people who are right going forward in their journey, that's where you're gonna get the most support. There's lots of people just like you feeling the exact same thing that you have felt for all these years. And the one thing that a lot of people have had in common is they felt very isolated up until this point, and we're here to say, you don't need to be isolated. There's a way out of this.

Ingrid  27:28  
Yeah, for sure, for sure. And actually, let's, uh, you mentioned challenges there. We need to remind our listeners that we are going to do our next challenge soon, aren't we? I mean, we're starting, like, within a couple of days, so there is still time to sign up because it is our May wardrobe challenge. We're starting it on Monday. I'm so excited. I'm so excited. We're so into spod cast, I nearly forgot to tell everybody about it. So don't forget to sign up. If you want to join us. It's on declutterhub.com/wardrobe-decluttering-challenge. So that's declutterhub.com/wardrobe-decluttering-challenge. Come and join us for some lightbulbs and fun and laughter and good insights and a group of like minded people. We love our challenges, don't we, Lesley?

Lesley  28:25  
We do can't wait to get started. Yeah, nice. And you know, if you do feel overwhelmed, we clutter a wardrobe is quite often a good place to start, isn't it? The wardrobe challenge will be a good place to start. So we hope to see you there.

Ingrid  28:37  
Yes. So thank you all so much for listening to this podcast. We hope to see you either in our Facebook group on our challenge in our membership. Or if you just want to kind of go you know, Ingrid and Lesley, I really would like your help, but I'm not really sure what's going on here. Just book a free discovery call with one of us. And we can talk you through it and see if we can help you to like we're helping so many other people. So thanks so much for listening. If you don't want to miss the next podcast, subscribe to diesel truck podcast and will come into your notifications each Friday. So thanks for being here, and we'll see you next time.

Outro  29:20  
Thanks for listening to this week's episode of the declutter podcast. Check out declutterhub.com for more inspiration, and don't forget to tune in next week.
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