A photograph of Lesley Spellman's three children in front of some colourful flowers
Episode 41 – Lesley Spellman, the person behind the podcast.

In this podcast, Ingrid asks Lesley about her life leading up to becoming a Professional Organiser. We talk about whether things in Lesley's childhood, early career and her life since had a bearing on her becoming a Professional Organiser.
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Transcript of this podcast episode
Intro  0:07  
Welcome to today's episode of The Declutter Hub Podcast, your channel for super easy, no nonsense advice on how to declutter and organise your home. Please welcome your host professional organisers, Ingrid Johnson, and Lesley Spellman.

Ingrid  0:26  
Hello, and welcome listeners to Episode 41 of the Declutter Hub Podcast. I'm Ingrid. And I'm Lesley. If you have clutter and want to sort it out, this is a show for you. In today's episode, Lesley and I are going to chat about what brought us to becoming a professional organiser. And the spotlight is on Lesley this week. So we've been doing these podcasts for a while now. And people are always curious how we ended up being a professional organiser, and where a love for decluttering and organising comes from. So I'll be the one asking Lesley lots of questions today so we can find out more about her story. So Lesley, spill the beans, were you a really organised child?

Lesley  27:17  
All right, Lesley. So that's your story of how you became a professional organiser, is there anything else you want to share with our listeners, I'm going to completely skipped over the fact that I've got three kids and that you do learn quite a lot. So sorry, kids, I forgot to mention in throughout this whole podcast that I raised the family in the middle of that. And I think, you know what, I think when you've got a family, and you've got to go through weekly routines, or even if you've not got a family, you know, daily routines, and weekly routines, and cleaning routines, and all that kind of stuff is really, really critical as well. So all of those things, all of these things have a little impact and had so these little seeds, don't they, throughout your journey, and I can't wait to do the podcasts with you. Because I'm sure there's things in there that you didn't know about me. And equally, I'm going to find out things about you that I didn't know, I think, you know, it's interesting when you have to reflect on your own life. And so what why am I here, you know, because I came into this when I was 40, you know, so I was, you know, quite advanced in

Ingrid  28:43  
Listeners, we hope you are inspired by Lesley journey. And maybe think to yourself now what have I done in my past that can help me in my own decluttering and organising in my own house? Because you you probably have done something that is really helpful to bring you on the path and think you know what, maybe when I was in school, I did always organise my papers really well in my folder. So why is my paperwork now very messy? Well, I know I can do it, because I've done it before. So by sharing our stories, we hope it inspires you. To

to, to think about that. And and Lesley, is there anything else before we close this episode what you'd like to share with our listeners?

Exactly, because you need to work with your strengths and and exactly what you were saying earlier, Lesley, this is not about perfectionism as being organised. It has nothing to do having a perfect house and having the perfect thing on everything perfect all the time. Let's just start by being able to find your keys every day, you know, that's that those are the things that are helpful. And so listeners.

Outro  31:41  
Thanks for listening to this week's episode of the declutter hub podcast. Check out declutterhub.com For more inspiration, and don't forget to tune in next week.

Lesley  1:14  
No, I think the first thing to say is I have not got a great memory, if I'm truly honest. And so a lot of my friends and I know people who are listening, who I grew up with, remember loads and loads of things. And I really do. But there's a couple of things that I remember. So first things first, I was an only child. And so I was brought up as an only child. And that makes a difference. Because what you don't have then is you don't have chats with your siblings about the way that you are brought up. So that kind of disappears. And so I'm just trying to make excuses for my distinct lack of memory. But the couple of things that I do remember about my childhood, and I kind of grew up in the 70s and 80s that were relevant about decluttering and organising a thing. That first, first of all, I used to absolutely love changing my room round all the time. So my bedroom probably changed every four or six weeks, you don't move the bed, moved things in my ward, you know, change the chores around all that kind of stuff. So I was always very, very focused on maybe, you know, now I would call it aesthetics, I suppose, and using the space well and things like that. But it's something that really used to make me tick, whereas a lot of other people just lived in Messy bedrooms, but I was always focused on having a neat bedroom. And some of that might be because I was an only child and I was trying to film the day. But yeah, so that's that's the first thing really that I remember from sort of early childhood that would be when I was kind of eight 910 years old or something like that. And then the other thing that I remember was I used to get paid by my mom to clean out the kitchen cupboards. Did you ever did you ever get that you know what they like, right, you can have 50 Pity, and you've got to cut, you've got to clean out the whole of the kitchen and take all the things out and do all the food. I can remember, you know, and we used to have these Tupperware was rife, wasn't it still is really but rife in the 70s. And that was like orange Tupperware jars with the stickers on them. And I used to absolutely love putting the stickers on the spices and all that kind of stuff and rearranging the kitchen cupboards. So I guess that from an early age, I did have those kinds of organising jeans, because I used to and it wasn't just the 50 P for the I think it was 50 P that seems quite generous, maybe in the 70s. I don't know. But in my head it was 50 pr pounds for cleaning kitchen cupboards. And I used to like doing it. So maybe maybe it was there. The seed was sown at a very young age.

Ingrid  3:29  
And did it continue in your teens? Because sometimes things can become a bit messy content. So did it continue them

Lesley  3:36  
to I can't. I can't sit and say that I was always an Elan still. I'm not I'm still I'm not a meticulous person at all, which probably a lot of people be surprised about as an organiser. It's all about having things in the right place for me and not being perfect. The thing that I remember most about my teens, you know, I think I just floated through my teens in the way that everybody else does. I'm sure my mom or dad thought I was an absolute nightmare. But I was it was fine. But the one thing that I did, I was a really, really hard work and I have multiple jobs. And so I always had a paper around. I worked in factories, I worked in British Home Stores on the food side inside loads and loads of Saturday jobs. And the ones that the other couple of things that I did, which again is related, I think to decluttering and organising is I used to work for a company called Better Where are you familiar with that? With outerwear? No, I think now the equivalent would be and this is probably British, and I'm sure there must probably be American equivalents as well. But it's like I think there's like clean, easy or clean ease. I don't even know how you say that now, but it's those catalogues that get sent out door to door it's probably changed now in format a little bit probably mail order now isn't it? But people used to come door to door to sell you things give you the catalogues but like Avon used to be give you the category used to choose cleaning products and things for your house, ordered them and I used to deliver them then on a Friday night. And I was always astonished about the amount of time Trying to find a nice word for this. But the amount of stuff that people used to have household stuff that they would buy to clean their blinds or to clean their work surfaces or hub cleaners or dusters or whatever, all the time, I'd have regular customers continually buying cleaning and organising products from better where I was really happy because I made loads and loads of money out of it. But I was fascinated about the continual spending on household and organising items.

Ingrid  5:32  
I don't know better where but I can understand I know exactly where you're coming from. I think I understand the whole principle about it. Yeah, just

Lesley  5:39  
going door to door and trying to sell people things. And it's quite an interesting concept that doesn't really happen these days. Does it anymore, but you know, so I was fat. You know, I had a good work ethic. I was very strong. I liked making money. Maybe I shouldn't have become a professional organiser. That's the downside. But anyway. So but yeah, so I think I did that in my teenage years. And that had an impact in the way that I thought a little bit as well.

Ingrid  6:05  
So then you moved on from your teenage years into your early career. So what did you end up doing? And did you get your job help you with your organisation skills? Or did you did you use your organisation skills into your early career?

Lesley  6:20  
I think this was just before I jumped to early career, I think there's something that I wanted to talk about, which was when I went to uni. So obviously, as a teenager, then I went to university. And some people may not know this, but I studied Dutch at university, and which has got no bearing on the fact that I'm friends with Ingrid now, but I so I studied German and Dutch when I went and I spent my year abroad as you do. When you're at uni, go for your third year you spend abroad, and I went to Holland, I chose to go to Holland instead of Germany for my year abroad. And I think in terms of growth as an individual, I think going to a foreign country, for me, is one of the biggest things in terms of growth and in terms of impact, because all of a sudden, you see the way that people do things differently. So you know, different countries have different traits in general things that happen you know, it's gross generalisation. Everyone is different, but there are traits I think that are common to a nationality, aren't they? And so it's interesting to come out of the British culture go across to the Dutch culture as a 20 year olds, which I was at the time and just work things out for myself you know, live on my own completely independently for the first time in my life. Take my stuff over on my in my Tolbert, sunbeam on the ferry, across too hot to Holland, and kind of work, work out how to do things differently. I was there, there was no Internet, there was no let me find somewhere to live, I literally had to go on boards and find somewhere to live. And so began became very independent very quickly, I had to think on my feet had to look at houses, and flats that were going to be suitable. And I was really lucky because I had a fabulous friend over there who completely embraced me and did not speak a word of English to me from the minute I landed, which was fantastic for my Dutch. My Dutch now for the record is rubbish. I can listen to every single word that Ingrid says to her husband and kids. I know exactly what she's saying. I can't speak back to her. But I can understand everything she's saying. So there's no secrets. So one of these days I keep saying well have a conversation in Dutch but I'm sure it would not flow after what is that like 30 years of non use of Dutch. I think I would be a bit rubbish compared to Ingrid's meticulous English. But yeah, so I think going to home just to my own. The other thing, which is interesting, isn't it that we found out recently, is that yarn whose Ingrid's husband is also Dutch, lived in the same town as me the same year didn't mean on him. I know.

Ingrid  8:45  
You know what you say it has no bearing that you went to Holland. But I think that it was meant to be that you and I were going to do the declutter of podcasts. And we find that all this stuff are you actually started in Holland, then you can eavesdrop on me and you're chatting or when I'm telling off the kitchen. I'm thinking nobody understands what I'm saying to them.

Lesley  9:05  
So anything about

Ingrid  9:07  
the Dutch culture that you thought was interesting about Dutch people? Did you find out anything?

Lesley  9:14  
I think, whether it's got a bearing on decluttering and organising, I'm not sure but in in my relationship with you, for sure. I think Dutch people are very direct, they call a spade a spade. And as people may have worked out from the podcasting world, and so and so, you know, you and I are both like that. Anyway, I have that trait as well. And so I think, yeah, there's a there's a directness with the Dutch people, which can be quite refreshing. It's also something that you need to get used to at times as well, but it can be one way or the other. And I think one of the things that I do feel about the Dutch and this is this was 1988 or something like that. I felt there was more a more frugal nature to the Dutch. I think they took care of finances perhaps a little bit better or were more folk stone that, then we were in the UK again, that's a gross generalisation. But I think there was definitely an eye on the pennies. Would you agree with that? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And so I think that that that has a bearing as well. And so, of course, there was a million things that I picked up on that I learned when I was in Holland, loads of things. But I think, for me in terms of forming you as an individual and as a person and making you see things differently, and I have a different perspective, I think going to a foreign country definitely was critical for me.

Ingrid  10:32  
So you came back being completely fluid in in judge?

Lesley  10:35  
I was I actually was at that time, I was completely fluent. And look at me now. I can barely string a sentence together. It's so sad anyway.

Ingrid  10:44  
All right. So then so But where did you end up working? Then when you finish uni? What what came on your path?

Lesley  10:51  
So I went to work for Sainsbury's, which is a big UK retailer, food retailer, went into retail management. And so again, very pragmatic, very practical. You do have to do your stint on a checkout, you do have to do your stint stacking shelves. You have to spend your time on customer service working with people very soon into my career with sayings was I moved into customer service. And so that was obviously where my skills were. So definitely people side of things. Because being a professional organiser is 90%, about the people, isn't it? Ingrid? So, you know, certainly people skills has been a big part of my career. And I started that off with Sainsbury's went into retail, where it's in the branches for a year. And then I had an area row where I started doing training and sort of mentoring of people, and project management. And so I sort of managed projects, managed people taught people how to do things. This was at a time when the internet was just coming in. This is so how old I am. And so it was training people how to use the World Wide Web and training people how to use Word Perfect and things like that. So it's quite interesting. But it was all about trying to break things down and simplify it for people. And so I absolutely, you know, one of the most formative things for me was that I worked for sensors probably for about four or five years. And I think that was the most critical part because, you know, I was really lucky to work for such an established company that invested heavily in training. And I think that's, that's why I feel so strongly that training is so important. Now, there was no training for us as professional organisers when we started, but we now train for other people. And I think that training is something that everybody needs to invest in. And I got that message certainly from Sainsbury's when I was working there. So I did so yeah, work for Sainsbury's. And then one of the things that I did as well, it seems was was I was I had a baby. Not just at Sainsbury's. But so I had Luke, my youngest when I was still working at Sainsbury's. And it was quite interesting at that time, because your old your oldest, my oldest, yes, this is a long time ago. So I'm like 20 How old? Am I at this point? 27 when I had Luke, so I'd worked for Sainsbury's them for five years at that point. And it was kind of like, right, okay, then well, when you want to continue your career, you can come back, there was no sense of job sharing or flexibility. Or, you know, that that kind of thing that it part time wasn't really going to work. Because the job that I had, I was travelling up and down to Scotland, three, four hour trips, and things like that. So it didn't, it wasn't really conducive to having a baby, as well. And so I very much wanted to do a kind of flexible work and job share. They couldn't accommodate that other time. So I went to work as a PA to a district manager to sort of want to send three senior managers, and he wanted me to set up all these back end office systems. So now of course, there's apps that can do absolutely everything, then we were trying to do everything from first principles on Word or whatever, and trying to create documents and stuff like that. So that's the kind of thing that I did. So and that that I think is where my love of paperwork and statistics and things like that comes from as well. So, so that's what I did for sense was that I did that for another year. And then I left. Oh, yeah, so it was good.

Ingrid  14:08  
Yeah. But also, again, those those organising skills were helpful for you. In that job as a PA, setting up systems and creating order and being able to retrieve items, all the techniques we're using. Now we've you've done yourself.

Lesley  14:26  
Yeah, exactly. And so I think so you don't really know at the time, it's interesting, isn't it? Where people, you know, just to jump back to you and I train other professional organisers. And within that training, people always get nervous because because they're sort of saying, Well, I don't really know what to do. I've not really got any background in professional organising. And we say all the time, don't we? It's nothing to do with whether you've been trained in something. Obviously, the training course that we run is really important for them. But it's about where have you been in social services? Have you worked in probation? Have you moved to house 10 times have you downsized, have you so all of those standard? Practical household skills are the things that make people into good professional organisers. And the things that you pick up along the way, are absolutely critical. So I can definitely see a path now as I look at it that led me here, as many other people can in their careers. But it's you don't really know it as you're going through that path through that journey. Do Yeah, yeah. And, you know, your journey we're going to talk about in another podcast is equally as interesting, but very different, you know, and bring it up to a different place. So, yes, so that was when I was working, then I, I stopped working, because we moved to America in 2001. For my husband's job, I did not have a spouse visa. So suddenly, she says, Not suddenly, at all, I couldn't work well. So I just had a really nice holiday with my kids while my husband was working. So we moved to New Jersey, and which I absolutely loved, again, for the same reasons as moving to Holland, all of a sudden, I'm in my 30s By this point, and I see the way that things can be done in a different way. You know, obviously, the American culture is similar to ours in so many ways, but also different. And so it took me out of my comfort zone. And, you know, I was dropped in America with no friends. You know, I was lucky that I was, you know, I got great friends really, really quickly. That really involved me and everything. So I was very, very lucky. But I think it really does make you kind of resilient. And you know, and you see things in a different way. And what did I learn when I was in America that led me into professional organising? Well, the first thing that I learned when I was in America was that there was such a thing as a professional organiser. So that was quite formative. And because I've never even in the same way that lots of people have not heard of it. Now. You know, when I was this is going back 1015 years now. I've never knew that such a thing existed somebody to come in and sort out your house and help you to declutter and understand the emotions, I just didn't know that that kind of thing existed. But in America, it's it's, it's more established than it is here. There's about four or 5000, professional organisers working in the US. And so it's a little bit further advanced, isn't it than we are in this country and grid. So. So that's the first time that I came across a professional organiser. And I think that was very formative. I also think the other thing that I learned when I was there, which is very different now was the disposable nature of the way that they viewed stuff. So I think there was definitely there's definitely a faster turnaround. So they would use plastic cutlery and plastic plates, there would be a curbside recycling scheme where you could recycle old barbecues and things like that. And I was always astonished by how much stuff would go out on this curbside recycling every week. Because I think in Britain, we still had this kind of make do and mend mentality where we would keep things in our garages. Whereas in America, it was much more kind of, we've used that let it go with us that let it go. So it's quite interesting. Really, those are the two things. I learned a million other things in America while I was there, of course I did. But those are the two things that stick with me in terms of the professional organising side of things.

Ingrid  18:09  
But also, I mean, doing an international move with a husband and kids is like a whole different ballgame, isn't it moving? internationally? I mean, moving house within your own country is already can be a big deal. But internationally is a whole different ballgame. And I think we you learned probably a lot from that as well.

Lesley  18:28  
Yeah, absolutely. Because you've got to really think about what you want to take. And this is not, you know, when I moved to Holland, whatever I could fit in my Tolbert sunbeam, I could take across the water to Holland, and it actually wasn't that far away. But you know, I had moved my whole house and family, you know, to kids, put the send them to school into a rented house and things like that, and really take with us what we wanted. And the interesting thing was, even though I was quite good in the decluttering side of things, when we came back, there was a whole load of things that we had left in our loft that we absolutely didn't need when we get you know, so you just don't know that's it forces those kinds of habits on you. And you really have to review your stuff as well, in the absolutely right. International move. Is does involve a lot of planning and organisation and thought,

Ingrid  19:11  
yes. We're going to talk in my journey. I mean, I've moved several times internationally. So I know, I know. Everything about it. It's it's it's very, you learn a lot from it.

Lesley  19:23  
You do and you know, and I want to say it's a real privilege to be able to live in other cultures is a real privilege and something that we don't take lightly. And to learn from that. It's fantastic and to just pick lots of different things up so yeah, no, really formative much of my my year in Holland and my two and a half years in America were really, really critical if that the two and a half years in America felt as if it could have been 10 years. Really just amazing. So

Ingrid  19:47  
yeah, lovely. At one point you came back to good old Blighty and then what happened?

Lesley  19:55  
And then I got a book. My husband nearly divorced me over So I have to say I got, I decided that I wanted a bigger house. And my husband wasn't very happy about that, actually. So it wasn't great. But I got my way and we bought what people would call the doer progress. But what will the people would call a completely derelict house. So it was there was no roof on it. There was no electricity. So it's a kind of four bedroom. It was a five bedroom, four floor semi detached Victorian property, you know, really beautiful features, you know, nice stained glass windows, big front door, but completely wrecked because it had been lived in by a compulsive hoarder. And when I say that, I mean a proper hoarder, where none of the rooms were fit for purpose, you could not get into the house and the front door or the back door. So there was a platform built around the outside scaffold platform built around the outside of the house. And there was in the back wall of the house, the brickwork had been smashed through, and that was the entryway to the house. To get upstairs, I've got quite a nice sort of wide staircase, you couldn't get up the stairs. And so there was a ladder put up through the stairwell to get upstairs. And it was really, really, you know, everything was there was water coming everywhere, there was no electricity. It was was down water pouring through the roof, everything like that. So it was quite the project. And

Ingrid  21:31  
so where did you live at this time?

Lesley  21:34  
So we still for a little while. So we bought the house, we still lived in our old house for a little while. And then we needed to, you know, this is right at the time of the financial crash as well in 2008, which is another reason why most was like, why are we doing this? Why are we doing this when all of the house prices have plummeted? Anyway, so it was a tricky time. But we're still here to tell the tale. So that's fine. And so I just had this urge to do something really special. And I think most of that was that I could craft this house to be exactly what I wanted it to be obviously had a great blank canvas, a nice big property with great room sizes and things like that. But we knocked it around, the most exciting thing for me was put in storage solutions. And so I've got some great, I mean, you've been to my house. And I've got some fantastic little nooks and crannies, where I've got some great storage, whether that's DVD storage are a laundry room, you know, that kind of over smells like oh, look at that space there, I got a laundry room there. And so I was able to do that, because had a team of like 10 builders here for six months doing it. So it was really you know, So project management wise, I project managed, the whole thing was involved in everything, which I absolutely loved. And I really created a new what I wanted, because I've got my three kids now my family and I knew what a family of five, how we could exist in this house and you know, make it perfect, really in terms of storage and still believe that it is, you know, to me, and I'm very, very lucky and very privileged to have a house that I do. And so yeah, so that was really critical in terms of so that the practical side of it was was important because I could craft this house, and I could really look at things and look at storage. But one of the critical things was because the house had been lived in by compulsive hoarder, you know, we're talking that there was 1215 cars on the dry, it took three months for the land to be cleared outside because it was so overgrown. And so people, it was quiet the transformation. And so people would walk past the house when we were in and stop and talk and stare and look and go oh my god, that was amazing compared to what it used to look like. And talk to us about the guy that have lived here. And I was always very, I always found it very strange, because it was always very, very critical of his hoarding disorder, which was clearly a huge mental health issue that people were saying, it's ridiculous and many people not everybody, but many people had zero sympathy for this guy and did not recognise it as a mental health condition. Whereas I had that sympathy right from the get go, if that makes sense. And so I think that was important, even though when I moved in here. The hoarding was gone. The house was cleared. I think people's opinions of this guy that had lived there really resonated with me and made me think and it's a year later but I settle my business

Ingrid  24:26  
Yeah. It makes you probably think about I don't know maybe help people need help.

Lesley  24:37  
Yeah, I just think you know, for something, you know, I didn't meet him. I didn't meet him. It already died before we moved in here. But I think just to hear people talking about something that was close to me, because this was now my house some people talking about a transformation and be you know, you know, overawed by the transformation that have gone on with the house and really wanting to see it and being completely fascinated by this condition, which means that people do People keep more stuff than they need to was a fascination now that definitely started it. You know, at that point, I wasn't like, I want to be a professional organiser, I wasn't at all. But I think later, I realised that that did have an impact on me. Because, you know, it's important to know that you can, I know, it's a different thing. And that was his house. And this is now my house, and I'm not transforming his house with him in it. But, you know, it is possible to make a transformation in a house, on a practical level, once somebody understands and understands, and not everybody's got hoarding disorder. But people do have psychological emotional barriers with clutter. And I think that talking to people at my gates, outside my house really made me think about that.

Ingrid  25:41  
Okay. Right. And then so you finally decided to set up your business. So all your experience in all your things that happened in your life made you become a professional organiser, almost it was supposed to pass you were going on?

Lesley  25:59  
I think it was, I think it was always, you know, it's interesting, because there you know, professional organisers nowadays come in all different shapes and sizes, I mean, even you and I can, we are very, very aligned in our thinking. But we come to it from a different place, sometimes as well, in terms of the way that we think and the way that we get, we get to the same place, I think that we come at it from different angles. And I think it's all for me, it's all about the practical project management skills, the simplification of things, and the people side of things, and making people think about the way that they're doing things, and then simplifying things into a system that they can manage, and not over complicating things. So I think it's all about breaking things down. And I think, throughout my sort of professional life, then I did a lot of that, you know, and and with my house renovation, I was able to do that I was very lucky, you know, to be able to go through working for great companies and travelling abroad, this is a very privileged life that I've had, and I don't, you know, take that for granted at all. But I think it's led me to, I know that I want to help people who struggle a little bit with clutter on a practical level. So I do do other things. I do project management, I do Interior Design, that kind of things. But what I love is I love decluttering, because that's the thing that makes the biggest impact. Yeah.

Ingrid  27:15  
Yeah.

Lesley  28:19  
advance. But you know, I didn't come into this in my 20s. And now professional organisers are coming into the, into the industry in their 20s. Whereas I think when you when I started, it was something that people were doing in later years wasn't that. So? No, you know, we're in a very privileged profession. We absolutely love what we do. And just being able to make a difference to people is really, really lovely.

Ingrid  28:41  
Yeah.

Lesley  29:30  
Yeah, I just want to say I think a lot of people you know, when I've obviously spent the last half an hour talking about the kinds of things that I'm good at, you know, to mean in principle or have been good at, but there are so many things that I'm not good at. And when with my clients, I'm like, why can I not get this right with decluttering and organising because you're really fantastic at these other things that you've learned in your life. And so it wouldn't do for us all to me the same way that you and I are completely fascinated with decluttering and organising it and that absolutely makes us tick and it's critical to our lives, or is it's not well, it kind of is To other people, but they've got other skills that we've not got. And so don't do yourself and injustice, but you know, do yourself down because you haven't got these decluttering and organising skills. And remember that for most people, organising skills can be learned.

Ingrid  30:15  
Yeah, very, very true there. I can rattle off a whole list

of stuff that I'm not very good at. I just happen to be good at decluttering and organising. And I happen to love it as well, you know. So

that's, that's lucky, I guess. But there's loads of stuff I'm not very good at and I find other people to outsource to.

Think about that. And I hope this, you've enjoyed listening to this podcast. And we really appreciate for being here. And thank you so much for taking the time to listen today. And if you'd like to get more tips and advice, please follow us on social media. We are an Instagram, Twitter and Facebook as at the cloud hub. And we have a lovely lively supportive Facebook group community where we chat all things clutter, and you can search for the declutter hub community on Facebook, and we'd love to see you there. If you don't want to miss the next weekly episode, please subscribe to the declutter podcast on Apple podcasts, Spotify and Stitcher and pop into your notifications each Friday. See you next time.
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