A photo of a man in a white shirt - Peter Walsh - smiling at the camera surrounded by clutter

Episode 270 – Peter Walsh: The Power of Clutter and its hold on us

For over 20 years, Peter Walsh has been working internationally helping families declutter and organise their homes and their lives. Peter believes that clutter is anything that stands in the way of people living their best lives and we could not agree more.

Peter has always managed to encourage people to declutter using the perfect balance of empathy and understanding coupled with some tough love. If you’re an American TV fan you’re likely to know Peter from Clean Sweep, Oprah and the Rachel Ray show in the States and Oprah dubbed Peter as the “Get your Whole Life Organized Guy”. He’s also a New York Times Best selling author of 7 books. To say we are excited to have Peter on the show is an understatement. Today in Part 1 of a two part podcast we’re unwrapping the power of clutter and its hold on us.

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Transcript of this podcast episode

00:00
For over 20 years, Peter Walsh has been working internationally helping clients declutter and organize their homes. Peter believes that clutter is anything that stands in the way of people living their best lives. And we, of course, could not agree more. Peter has always managed to encourage people to declutter and organize using the perfect balance of empathy and understanding with some straight talk in tough love. You probably know Peter from his shows in America, it's clean sweep, The Oprah Winfrey Show and The Rachael Ray show. And of course, his Australian TV shows where the next season is coming out in early 2024. He's also a New York Times bestselling author and has produced seven decluttering books. To say we are excited to have him on the podcast today is an absolute understatement. So let's dig into the power of clutter and the hole that it has upon us.

01:05
You're listening to the declutter hub podcast, bringing you tried and tested no nonsense tips and advice from the leading experts in decluttering and organizing your home. Now here's your host, Lesley Spellman.

01:27
Hello, and welcome, listeners. I'm Lesley, we're delighted you're here to join us as part of your decluttering journey. So whether you're brand new today or have been listening for ages, we want to say thank you so much for being here. It means so much to Ingrid and now that you turn up every week to listen to and support us. While we talk all things decluttering and organizing. We'd love to help more people with their quest for a clutter free home and our podcast is a fantastic way for people to be inspired to take action. We have a favor to ask. If you like what you hear, be sure to hit the follow subscribe or like button on your podcast player. share us with your friends or share your thoughts on the podcast by leaving a review. Peter Walsh very excited to have you here today. We will fangirling Ingrid is not here. She's absolutely devastated that she's not here. And we couldn't quite believe when we asked you to come on the podcast that you would come on to the declutter podcast. So we're so excited. You're huge.

02:25
Absolutely. My pleasure. It's absolutely my pleasure to be here. Thank you so much for inviting me.

02:29
Thank you. So before we came into the podcast, you were like, I can't believe you're actually in my world. Well, first things first, we've got loads and loads of Australian and New Zealand people in our communities, and they're always talking about you. They talk about your TV shows and talk about everything else. And we all feel a bit devastated because here in England, we can't really get them right in thinking a lot of your Australian programs that you're on at the moment. We can't get them here and we can't get them in North America right.

02:54
Now. It's interesting. I've just come back from from Australia Extra. I'm just back in the United States. I live half my time in Australia and half my time in the United States. And I've just come back from shooting my fourth season of my series Space Invaders, which is incredibly successful in Australia. And while it has been released in a few areas in Europe, and it has been released in in limited release in Canada, embarrassingly in in areas in French speaking Canada under the title Manassa tois. Yes, exactly. It hasn't had broad release outside of Australia, although it is released in New Zealand under the name space invaders. So I'm not quite sure why that is. It's beyond my paygrade to control release of the series. But it has gotten released in areas, as I say, in limited release in Europe, but but I'm hoping it gets broader released throughout the world. It's now we've made 40 episodes so far. And it's it's one of the most popular shows of its kind in Australia. And I'm very, very proud of it.

04:00
And I want to talk about that a little bit later and unpack the whole TV show situation a little bit later in the podcast. But for now, I think the reason why Ingrid and I just, you know, you are the sort of Guru I'm not going to start being sycophantic and stuff, but you've done a lot of work and a lot of TV shows. So it's not really about that side of it. It's more about that what you actually your mantra when it comes to decluttering you know, because it's so aligned to the way that we teach. We probably stolen loads of your lines to be fired without knowing about it. But let's go dive straight in. So at the declutter, hub, we are we call ourselves emotions lead declutter friends, so we're very much it's not about the stuff. It's about the emotions that sit behind that stuff and unpacking it. And so I'm sure we're gonna have a great conversation today talking a little bit more about what we talked about every week on the podcast. So let's dive straight in. Why do you think clutter has such a huge hold on us?

04:58
Well, I feel started working in this area more than 20 years ago. And when I started on TV in the United States, I was one of the first, the show I first in the United States was called Clean Sweep. Right. And we started, it was one of the very first television programs to present decluttering, I think on a broad scale. And it was one of the very first shows, and it has, I think, continued the work that I've done, including the work that parallels the work that you've done, has really focused, not so much on the stuff, but on the reasons why people struggle with this stuff. And I think it's because we're presented daily with a real conundrum that we're taught, or led to believe that if we just acquire, if we just buy the right stuff we can acquire the life that we want. And that stuff brings happiness, that we're that we're led to believe every day. And I think it's best summarized in what I call the product and the promise that we go out all the time, and we buy products. But what we're actually chasing is the promise, for example, we buy an exercise machine. But what we're really chasing is the promise that if we buy this exercise machine, somehow magically, we will become fitter. That if we buy this, this lounge suite, if we buy this set of kitchenware, somehow we'll have a more beautiful home, somehow we'll become better cooks, somehow, if we buy this set of will cook well let's expand on that, that somehow our family will gather around for a better a better meal. And somehow with that, you know, it will create this this magical family moment, if we buy the skinny jeans, somehow, our butts will become magically smaller, we buy this makeup somehow will look more beautiful. So we buy the product. But what we're chasing is the promise that advertising and marketing presents with it. And when I go into homes all the time, the home is full of these products, that ends up being the clutter. But what really is in the home is all of these unfulfilled promises, which is really this sadness, this unhappiness. And so that's one aspect of it. But then the other aspect is that we attach so much to the stuff in our homes, that everything in our homes is there because we choose to have it there, either, we have physically brought it into our homes, or we have permitted it to be there. And so when we summarize it, the stuff in our homes exists of two main types, it's either what I call memory clutter. And that's the stuff that reminds us of an important person, or achievement or event from our past. And the fear is if we let it go, we will lose that memory. Or will dishonor the person who gave it to us, or it's what I call, I might need it one day clutter. And we hold on to it because it represents a whole lot of imagined futures or dreams that we have. And to let it go is to let go of those dreams. And so stuff has power. And it's not about the stuff. But it's about the power of that stuff. And so when we look, when you're I when I look at the things in my home, I see that power, I see that control, but when you look at the things in my home, you just see the stuff. And so in talking to somebody in our home, we have to understand that the stuff we're looking at is not actually the stuff, it's never about the stuff, it's about the power of the stuff. And I think that's the difficulty in helping people let go of this stuff. It's always about something other than the stuff usually about trauma, loss, abuse, grief, it's about those things. And as it comes down to, it just comes down to you know, stuff has power. And you have to you have to unravel the power of the stuff before you can really deal with the stuff itself.

09:32
You definitely do and you know the kind of product versus promise I love the way that you frame that we talk a lot about aspirational clutter, you know, same thing, right? And so, but it's unraveling that and then it goes deeper then because then you feel guilty about having in principle fails to live up to that desire or that aspiration. And so it's wrapped up in other emotions as well and then there's the money then we feel good alternatively, worried we can get an email. So it's just all wrapped up. But I mean, what we found is, you know, what we found over the years teaching is that this is news to people. And so when you start to unravel it with, you know, people like you say, just go for years and years and years with the stuff carried on buying it, love it until it gets too much until it becomes too overwhelming, then they'll take a step back and be like, what, how do I fix this, but then when you start to unravel it and, and sort of frame it in that in the idea about emotions, not stuff, the light bulbs go on time after time after time. And to me, that's the starting point is explaining that kind of thing to people so that those light bulbs can go on, and people can start to then make changes. But making those changes is tricky, as well. So but I think the starting point has to be understanding, as you say, the hold that this stuff has gotten us in power of the stuff, right?

10:52
It's interesting, you say that, because understanding this is not a new concept. And let me give you a very simple example. I'm not a religious person at all, like you know, not not in the list. And yet, it's only in recent times that I've come to understand the word covet. And you know, it's a word that appears twice in in the 10 commandments, Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's good, so shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife. And, you know, I was raised Catholic. And you know, the Sisters of St. Joseph, you know, beat the 10 commandments seem to be pretty strongly, and I never really understood that term. But in this work, I've come to understand the term very strongly. And that term goes back, you know, 1000s and 1000s of years to the Judeo Christian tradition, and cupboard is a very powerful word. And covered means to long for to have a strong wish for, and thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's goods is a very powerful term, because I've come to learn that comparison is the death of happiness. And I think that's one of the problems also that people need to understand. And it's compounded now by social media. And I think that's part of the thing that we're caught into, particularly with advertising and marketing, that we're constantly placed in a position of comparing ourselves to others of coveting what others have, that if only we had, what others have, we would be happier. So we're constantly taught to cover it, we're placed in a position of coveting what others have. And social media is totally about coveting what others have, we're tope constantly put into a position of, of seeing others in a better place, with better clothes, having a better holiday, being better made up having a better time, and it's all fake. There's nothing in social media that is real nothing. And there's nothing social about it, it's all artificial. And yet, that is what we're all now taught to long for. And that is part of the problem that we have to wait. So I think as professional organizers, we were fighting against that, that people are constantly coveting what others have. And as I say, comparison, is the death of happiness. And, and that's part of, of, of the Nexus that we have to break that that people are comparing what they have. And in making that comparison, we are we constantly fall short. And in falling short, against something that is not real. We are constantly unhappy. And that's why there's this universal feeling of of not being good enough or feeling unhappy, the stuff that we have never meets this false standard. And people are never happy people want more they want the next thing and this ties into this advertising and marketing concept that if you just buy the right thing, if you just buy that thing that you're coveting you can acquire the life that you want. And so it's this endless grind to get to the next thing so you fill your house with these products you chase this promise you can never get that you constantly Of

14:41
course what we've also got is we've got a clash in a lot of the people a lot of people in our world are a little bit towards the the oldest side of things and so then you've got this clash between the kind of make do and mend error that we have and so don't let anything go because it will always be God and all that it's always got a use and then you've got this consumerism so A debate that kind of came in in the 90s 80s 90s, really, and then you've got this clash. And that's where these clutter problems really come to the fore isn't it, but it's

15:09
much worse than that. It's now it's now the whole fast fashion thing. It's now this, this is now it's now a planetary problem, where there's this whole production of fast fashion, it's now this whole, this whole production of plastics, that are now destroying the planet that we all now, including professional organizers, now buy into, you know, buying plastic products to store stuff in our homes, we all buy into this, each of us now, every person on the planet now is consuming every two weeks, this this amount of plastic, a credit card size amount of micro plastics microplastics you and I are consuming this amount of micro plastics into our body every two weeks. Wow, every two weeks, and the amount of prep plastics are projected to increase threefold over the next 20 years. Plus and so and yet, and, and fast fashion, these clothes, you know, the clothes that are being produced, and then worn for three months and then dumped fast fashion, they're destroying East Africa, they're all being sent on mass to East Africa, and they're being dumped in the ocean. So it's it's the production, the mass production of stuff of clothes, the plastic toys that people are buying for their kids. It's all this stuff that has been mass produced on the planet. That is part of the problem as well. It's it's not just it's not just a stuff problem in our homes. It's it's a planetary problem that all of us are buying into.

17:02
Do you think then, you know, it's interesting. So do you think? Um, I definitely see that massive rise? It's still going? Of course it is. Do you see decreasing with people's awareness of sustainability?

17:13
I think we're doing? No, I have a very dismal view of it. I think we've screwed up, you know, I mean, I'll be blunt. I think we've screwed with the planet long enough. And I think this planet is going to screw us back. That's my view. I mean, look around, you know, all the signs are against us. And, you know, I know, we're supposed to be harbingers of, of good news. You know, I think the signs are all against us. That's my view. You know, I just, you've

17:41
had enough of consumerism, for sure. I think it's Yeah, I think I think you're right, it's so hard to see, but you kind of cling on to the idea, and certainly the professional organizing world, you know, we have to be so mindful of recycling, but maybe it's gone too far. And that's just kind of papering over the cracks a little bit. And, you know, we're not quite gonna get there, or I don't know, it's too hard to think about really, isn't it? Because it's just,

18:08
I think it's now about, it's not about what's in our homes anymore. It's now about stopping stuff at the door. I think that somehow, you know, we'd have to stop stuff at the door, it has to be about you know, single use plastics, it has to stop. But I don't see how I just don't see how that's going to happen. You know, even, you know, we have third world countries, you know, in first world countries, you know, we've been happy enough to use fossil fuels, we've been happy enough to use fossil fuels to get where we are. And now, you know, we're happy enough to say, well, you know, you know, they have to find some other way to develop. And yet we've been happy enough to use fossil fuels to get where we are, you know, it's a much more complicated question. And perhaps, you know, no one's prepared to discuss. I mean, I'm way off on a tangent at the moment.

18:59
But no, it's interesting to hear you because I think that you know, you are at the cutting edge, you have been at the cutting edge of decluttering and, and consumerism for so long. It's interesting to hear your opinion on that. I think I'm a little bit half full, and I'm like, Oh, we're doing our bit and trying to kind of rein it in and talking about it, and making sure that people are educated on these things, and that it's very much seen as part of the decluttering process. You know, we see donation recycling very much as part of the process and we'll, you know, kind of encourage people to do that. And people are doing that themselves, sometimes to the point that it's a barrier to people getting the job done as well. I see that as well, that the sort of the desire to keep things out of landfill or to find the absolute perfect donation spot for something sometimes holds people back a little bit as well. And we're like, it's still landfill. If it's sitting in your kind of house. Really? Yeah, you know, to me, and it's just in a different place on the planet, really. So I mean, what do you think? Start when people what do you think of this sort of donation side of things? Do you feel that people should go to the nth degree to try and find the right place to donate?

20:10
I think in theory, it's a it's a wonderful thing that people say that. But I think more often than not, it's an excuse. You know, I think people saying, I can't let it go, because I don't want something to go to landfill more often than not. I see. People use that as an excuse not to let things go to be perfectly blunt, you know, and when pushed, when push comes to shove, it's more about them simply not wanting to let things go, you know, because when it does come down to it, you can find places to donate pretty much everything. Yeah, you know, I mean, up to the 90, you know, the 95 percentile, you can find places to donate pretty much everything. And there are, there are companies that will come and collect stuff. And there are companies that I work with, both here in the United States, in North America, and in Australia, who make, you know, make a policy of recycling, you know, up to the 95th percentile of stuff that they come and collect. But even so, you know, I, you know, I'm not, you know, the whole recycling thing. The truth is that most of that is, is farcical you know, recycling largely, as far single, you know, that, you know, if you look into that, you know, when it comes down to it, most of the stuff that we think has been recycled simply is not it, it's a panacea, it makes us all feel a lot better. But the truth is, most of the stuff that we put into our recycling bin simply is not recycled. Yeah. You know, and it comes back to plastics. Plastic is poison. And that's the truth of it. And it can't be it's not biodegradable, and, you know, it ends up breaking down into micro plastics and microplastics are moving back into the ecosystem, and moving back into our bodies and back into our oceans and the Pacific Gaia, where there's a massive amount of plastic spinning around, you know, half the size of Texas out in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, you know, and as I say, a credit card size, amount of plastic, you know, spinning around in our body every two weeks, I mean, and yet, we have no idea what that's doing to our own micro system. And yet we continue to produce plastic because it's an easy, you know, it's an easy fix for packaging, you know, so we're not serious, we're just not serious. And yet, you and I will go out today and buy, you know, a plastic squirt bottle of detergent, because it's easy to buy. And it's the easiest, it's the easiest thing to put in our house. I mean, that's the truth. That's the truth. And

22:43
do you would you buy into the idea that if everybody does a tiny little bit, that that's going to help generally or just just think it's just gone too far? It's

22:51
a waste of time. Okay. It's like banning plastic shopping bags, that's a waste of time. Because 75% of the problem is caused by large industry. So you know, and so we get dismal about it. I mean, certainly it makes, you know, it makes some little difference. But it's a much bigger problem and the individual, it's a much bigger problem than that. And so, you know, unless there's, unless there's change on a huge scale. And, you know, nothing's going to change.

23:21
Yeah, nothing that we're going to fix on this podcast talking about decluttering.

23:27
But, you know, unless there's, it's,

23:30
it's a too big of a topic for me, too.

23:34
But each of us, but each of us do have a choice that he can make a change by consuming less than encouraging others that we know to consume less, but that doesn't mean that, you know, coming this Christmas, we won't end up all buying too many toys, and too much stuff. You know, because that's what we do. Because we're all taught. I mean, we all buy into this concept that more is better. Yeah, we all buy into this, willingly and knowingly subconsciously, that if you love someone, you buy something for them. I mean, we all buy into this me and you included? Absolutely. If you know, I mean, look, look at, look at our celebrations that we have, you know, we have all these celebrations, and every single celebration, whether it's a wedding, whether it's Hanukkah, whether it's Christmas, whether it's graduation, whether it's a baptism, no matter what it is, they all come with gift giving. And yet there's not one single event in the calendar here that's marked with taking something out of our home. Yeah, every single event is marked with giving something but not one single event is marked with taking something out of our home.

24:45
We'd like to, we'd like it to be

24:49
but and we all buy into this. Yeah. And so of course our homes are full of stuff, because every important event is marked with gift giving You know, I'm not I'm not criticizing that it's simply the state of offense. Yes, that's the way that's the way our culture is marked by gift giving. And so and we all buy into that, that that love is characterized. Our affection for people is characterized by giving something, and there's something wrong with you, if you don't do that, and so, you know, it's the way our society has been constructed. You know, it's, it needs a whole societal shift, to turn that around, and I just, it's much bigger than then you arrived, you know, it may start small. But, you know, you said the light bulb has to go on. And that that has to happen for everyone. But, you know, I mean, look at the bookshelf behind me or look at the bookshelf behind you. I mean, you know, we all it's, for everyone, it's about decoration. Yeah, it's not about pragmatism, it's about, it's about look, it's about emotion, it's about decoration. I mean, you know, you know, on my bookshelf, how many of these books do I actually read on your bookshelf? How much of that stuff do you actually need? Or you, you know, we're all part. We're all part of this, none of us stands apart from this. And

26:22
have you ever thought then, you know, talking about that, had we ever ever thought of going down a minimalist route, then? No,

26:27
never? I don't know. Because, because we're not months. I mean, you know, Joshua Becker is a great proponent of this, you know, he's perhaps one of the leaders in this area. And I know Joshua very well, you know, he's a lovely guy, you know, or, you know, it's not, you know, there, there are big names, you know, across this broad area, you know, Marie Kondo is another name in this area, she's philosophy, you know, you know, I don't follow at all either. But, you know, stick to the minimalism thing. It's not something I could fully, you know, I'm not, you know, people say to me, or, you know, your house must be amazing, you know, have so little bear, you know, all your clothes must be color coded. Not in a million years, you know, I'm, you know, I'm not the crazy organizing guy, you know, it's just not the way I would choose to live my life, you know, I, there are areas of my house that are totally disorganized, you know, you know, my garage, where, you know, I do a ton of different projects, you know, it's relatively organized, but it's, you know, it's not, you know, everything's not labeled, you know, if, you know, some things are labeled, some things are not, but this minimalism thing is not the way I choose to live my life. You know, it's just, I don't have a ton of stuff, my partner and I don't have a ton of stuff, we probably have more of some things, you know, we have probably more, more, I was actually looking, I just got back a couple of days ago from Australia. And just last night, I was looking in a cupboard in the garage, we probably have more plates and glasses, because we love to entertain, than we probably should have. But it's like, I'm okay with that. Because on the occasion where we might, you know, have a dinner party for 2030 people, we use those. So you know, that we have the stuff we need for the kind of life we live.

28:18
And that's the most important thing. Yeah. Let's pop to a break. And let's come back in a moment, and let's try and unpack a few more emotions related to clutter. Okay, welcome back from the break. We're talking to the lovely Peter Walsh, and we're talking about all things about consumerism, plastics, we're talking about minimalism, and whether that's a good thing we've touched on Marie Kondo, we may come back to her later. But I want to just delve back into the emotional side of clutter that you talk so well about because you found this great balance. Peter, have a bit of tough love intersperse with a nice empathetic tone. And that made you you right, so you're not scared to say tough things to people? We are. So we're kind of generally in the declutter hub, you know, we are, you're going on a journey, be kind to yourself, but then sometimes when we see that people are not making the progress that they need, we'll kind of fly in there with a little bit of tough talk. On occasion. This is all online, right? Which is different as well. In one to one with people. But what what in your experience has been the toughest emotions related to clutter to crack so like, is it guilt? Is it worry? Is it aspirational? Clutter, sentimental clutter? I know it's hard and it's different for everybody. But which do you think is the most difficult one to crack? The great

29:39
question I found in dealing with people that that the there can be two there can be two ways of going into working with people that that you have to you have two choices when you step into another person's space. When you step into a space working with someone You have a choice. And not just you or me, but anyone in dealing with with with another person and their stuff. You can choose to judge someone. And the moment you choose to judge someone, and it's the easiest response, you put a barrier between yourself and that person. And in judging someone, what you're saying to them is, I am separate from you, I am different from you. And in some ways, I'm better than you that I don't suffer from, from whatever it is you suffer from, or you can choose to be empathetic. And in choosing to be empathetic, to show empathy, you place yourself in the same circle as that person. And I've found that if you show empathy, you can say pretty much anything you want to that person. And that's what that's perhaps been one of the most amazing things that I've discovered over the years that in not judging, I've found that I can say pretty much anything to the person I'm working with. And so the toughest thing, the strongest thing that I bring to a discussion with the people I've worked with, I only bring two things, I keep saying this, the two things that I bring in my work, working with other people are a helping hand and a mirror. And if another person, if the person I'm working with isn't ready or isn't prepared to do the work, there is nothing that I can do. Yeah, that, you know, they have to be, I can't change another person, I just, you know, I can't change someone else, you have to want to make those changes yourself. And so my job is simply to help them anyway I can, and to hold up a mirror to them and reflect back to them what I see. And it was my partner who actually said this to me once and I think it was one of the greatest insights I've ever had, that I often, my role is often to give people permission, that they won't give themselves, which I think was a really great insight on his part, that people often won't give themselves permission to let go of something or to to accept the fact that they have been hurt by someone or that something that they've held on to was aspirational. And that that aspiration is no longer real or valid in their life. And so that they have permission to let that go. But they could never give themselves that permission. But by me saying to them, it's okay now to let that go. And so, yeah,

32:49
working with a professional organizer, either one to one or online, is gives people that empowerment, I think can serve you you have it. Yeah, we have people, you know, we've definitely sit on a one to one basis where people like, you're stood next to me, and I've been looking at this thing for three years. But just because you're here, exactly able to make that decision. So in a context of one to one, we also see it in our q&a. So every we have a membership and every two weeks with us for questions and ask us more deeper questions about their individual circumstances. And quite often, we'll get a question. And I know that they've answered it, and they know the answer to that they just need us to go. It's okay. And then that's it. Lesley, I think would tell it was okay. If it goes it's just like, so people know it themselves, but just need to like, push through that fine. You're,

33:39
you're saying exactly the same thing. I'm saying you give them permission that they won't or cart or an able unable to give themselves? And it's I don't know, it's one of the it's one of the wonderful mysteries of what we do. Absolutely. That being an empathy and empathy is in there that you're saying to them. I'm in this with you. And I understand this with you. I'm not judging you. See, and that's the hold. If you're judging them, you're apart from them. But if you're in this with them, you can say, I understand, I'm with you. It's okay. Let it go. And they can and so that I don't know the answer to your original question. But I know that being there with someone and holding their hand and giving them permission that they can't give themselves is a really magical moment.

34:37
Yeah, exactly. I think it's the non judgement side of it is so critical. When, when people I've got a team of organizers that go out and work around the northwest of England and you know, the skills that I'm looking for are coming from a background of empathy care, understanding mental health, you know, probation work, the fact that we're not there can fold a pair of knickers is irrelevant to me because that can be learned that can always be learned but to be able to interact one to one with somebody who's got nothing and, you know, well, they have got still got loads of stuff in the house. But you know, feel like they've got absolutely nothing need to cling on to everything or working with a multimillionaire the next stage just got an excess of stuff just because they could, and being able to interact with those people in exactly the same way and bring something and have breakthroughs. That's the skill of a professional organizer.

35:33
See, that's because they've been surrounded by people, their husband, their wife, their neighbors, you know, their parents, who, who, every time they've stepped into their circle, have judged them, oh, you know, you're lazy. You're a slob. You know, you're disgusting. You have too much all this room's filthy, you know, because every interaction they've had, has been an interaction of judgment. And suddenly they have someone who's not judging. But who brings a whole different sense to that moment, a sense of empathy. And so the whole interaction is very different. And so that's, that's my point that anyone can be empathetic. But it's much more difficult. Judging is easy. Judging is is the easiest thing. Because as I say, it takes us out of the situation and places us on Hi, anyone could judge. being empathetic is much more difficult. Well,

36:34
Peter, I feel like we're only just getting started with this conversation. I'd love to come back and talk some more. So we've got so much to talk about that we're gonna there's gonna be a part two to this podcast, part one, do follow for part two, which will be coming in a few weeks time, and we'll see you in a moment.

36:55
Thanks so much for listening to the declutter hop podcast. Don't forget to subscribe to us in your podcast player so you don't miss an episode. And we'll see you next week.

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Recent Posts

Episode 363 – Before you blame the clutter are you doing these 10 things?

Episode 362 – The Roots of Clutter: How Britain became a nation of stuff with Professor Jane Hamlett

Episode 361 – Decluttering for yourself – why Swedish death cleaning might not be for you

Episode 360 – Gretchen Rubin – The secret to happiness in a cluttered world

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Chris Mitchell says:

8 December 2023 at 2:09 PM

Have listened and enjoyed well over 100 of your podcasts now but I'm afraid E270 with Peter Walsh left me cold! Maybe it was a cultural thing or maybe he just wasn't my cup of tea!
I think if he walked through my door as a professional organiser, I would immediately feel I'd made a big mistake. I found him closed, detached, arrogant, opinionated and slightly aggressive and I think he was probably a nightmare to interview. He had none of the empathy, charisma, down-to-earthness and humour that you, Lesley and Ingrid, have which makes me love you two even more and thankful that I am part of your lovely Declutter Hub community. All I can take from it is what I discovered early in my working career – that you learn just as much from negative experiences as you do from positive experiences.

Reply
1. Ingrid Jansen says:
  
  8 December 2023 at 5:42 PM
  
  We're so glad you're part of team Ingrid and Lesley. xx
  
  Reply
Vickie says:

1 December 2023 at 2:36 PM

Wow, an episode with decluttering and organizing guru, Peter Walsh! I was saddened to hear his opinion on the state of the environment (although he may be right) and hope his thoughts on the environment don't send people out to buy more fast fashion and single use plastics. Lesley, I have always felt your empathy in the membership. Thank you for doing what you do 💛

Reply
1. Ingrid Jansen says:
  
  1 December 2023 at 3:41 PM
  
  Thank you Vickie for your lovely comments. I will let Lesley know.
  
  Reply
Glorianne says:

1 December 2023 at 2:21 PM

Loved hearing from Peter Walsh (long-time fan from Clean Sweep days)! I had to pause the podcast several times to just sit with several of the topics- plastic waste, holidays about gift giving, decluttering- not minimalism, getting permission…
Thanks for a great episode, looking forward to part 2!

Reply
1. Ingrid Jansen says:
  
  1 December 2023 at 3:40 PM
  
  Glad you enjoyed this episode Glorianne.
  
  Reply

Episode 270 – Peter Walsh: The Power of Clutter and its hold on us

Episode 363 – Before you blame the clutter are you doing these 10 things?

Episode 362 – The Roots of Clutter: How Britain became a nation of stuff with Professor Jane Hamlett

Episode 361 – Decluttering for yourself – why Swedish death cleaning might not be for you

Episode 360 – Gretchen Rubin – The secret to happiness in a cluttered world

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