A split screen - on the left a book cover 'Keep the Memories, Lose the Stuff' by Matt Paxton and on the right a photograph of Matt Paxton wearing a navy blue shirt
Episode 176 – Keep the Memories, Lose the Stuff with Guest Matt Paxton

Episode 372 – The Opposite of Swedish Death Cleaning with Guest Alison Binney
Episode 371 – 10 Areas of Your Home Where the 80/20 Principle of Decluttering is Holding You Back
Your boxes of photos, family’s china, and even the kids' height charts aren’t just stuff; they’re attached to a lifetime of memories--and letting them go can be scary. In this podcast we are chatting with Matt Paxton of tv shows Hoarders and the Legacy List about his brand new book Keep the Memories, Lose the Stuff.
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Transcript of this podcast episode
[00:00:00] Ingrid: Your boxes of photos, family's china, and even your kid's high charts aren't just stuff. They're attached to a lifetime of memories and letting them go can be scary. In this podcast we are chatting with Matt Paxton of the TV shows Hoarders and the Legacy List about his brand new book, Keep the Memories

[00:00:24] Well, you could probably hear the excitement in my voice.

[00:00:28] Everyone. I'm absolutely thrilled to bits because I am talking to Matt Paxton. How cool is that? I mean, you kind of see somebody on television for like over a decade and you think you know them. But you don't, but I feel like I know you. Welcome, 

[00:00:44] Matt: Matt. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here. Well, 

[00:00:47] Ingrid: trust me.

[00:00:48] I've absolutely like it. Bunny burst of an excitement here. 

[00:00:52] Matt: So I realized I still can't believe people watch me on TV, more or less get excited to talk to me. So this is fun for me still. 

[00:00:59] Ingrid: Oh, thank you. No, it's, you know what? It's like. It's really weird, isn't it? We see people on television and we're like, we think we know you, we don't.

[00:01:08] But I think because you've been in our lives and we watch your shows and then it's like, oh, this is so exciting. 

[00:01:14] Matt: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I remember the time I met Peter Walsh and like, I mean, he was like, you know, I don't like the word, you know, he was just everything, you know, because when I was a kid, he was on, he was the first person on TV doing organising and I was cleaning people's houses, but I didn't know.

[00:01:26] What I was doing I was just trying to eat, you know, I was trying to get some money and uh And I see this guy that's really nice on tv and then I met him 10 years later, you know And it was like, oh my god, peter, you know, and you know, we've become friends since but it's like It's crazy when you get to meet your heroes, you know, and you turn out.

[00:01:42] Oh, yeah, man, they're They're like crazy, just like me, you know, but I like them, you know, but now I just like the guy, you know, so yeah, I get it. I love it. 

[00:01:50] Ingrid: Thank you. Well, we really appreciate you being here and you are one of the top downsizing, decluttering, cleaning and hoarding experts in the U. S. And you now host the Emmy nominated show The Legacy List with Max Paxton after having been featured on HBO Hoarders for 12 years.

[00:02:11] Matt: Oh my gosh, I mean. Yeah. 13 seasons of Hoarders, man. We cleaned a lot of houses and I realized about probably six years ago I've been cleaning houses for 20 years. Yeah, and about halfway through it, you know, most of my calls were hey I'm not a hoarder, but I got a lot of stuff right and you know, people saw me on TV But I was cleaning another 200 houses a year You know, when I wasn't on TV.

[00:02:35] And, and so, I mean, we really got, you know, got your feet wet, really learned the business over a decade, and um, and most people were just, you know, it's a very American thing where you have a lot of stuff. And it's a very consumeristic society. And we, these people are like, I'm not a hoarder. And some were, some weren't.

[00:02:50] Um, but 20 years ago when we started this journey, hoarding was a really negative thing, right? It was like the, it had just a horrible, horrible, you know, opinion against it. And now people are like, you know, Oh yeah, I like pizza. I like to draw, I'm a good, I make quilts, and I might be a whore. Like, it's not that big a deal like it used to be, but I'll tell you, we've really seen the business change to just, people are just kind of overwhelmed with so much stuff, and they just want a simpler life.

[00:03:16] Ingrid: Well, that's not only in the US, Matt. I mean, I think it's around the world. I mean, the Declutter Hub, we get listened to all over the world in our membership, we got people from all over the world. But I think it kind of got known. Because it was in the States that it was on television and it kind of then it came into our television screens as well.

[00:03:36] Matt: Yeah. Yeah, it sure came in loudly, right? Like, hoarding is a very loud disorder. Like, it's, it's, you know, we did six episodes at the beginning and I did the last two. In fact, I watched the first episode at home. I was just, I was just a viewer and I was like, Oh, I do that. And, and then they had not, it took them six months to find the last two families, and they happened to reach out to me through a long line of people.

[00:04:03] And so, the first episode I watched as a viewer, I ended up being on the first season finale, episode six. And, it ended up, you know, we just thought that was it. Two episodes would be done. And, of course now, like, the other day someone sent it to me, and um, In Greece and somebody sent it to me from Mexico and from Brazil, you know, it's like somebody else's voice, but it's my face, you know, you're like, oh my God, like, this is crazy.

[00:04:27] Like it went worldwide. And, you know, I think one, it's, it's, it's a train wreck. People like to watch it, but then also it let people, it did. Secondarily, help people find their way and help people learn how to communicate and help people learn how to, you know, get help when they needed it. 

[00:04:40] Ingrid: So tell me a little bit then how you got started because I mean, I've read your book.

[00:04:44] We're going to definitely talk about your book a little bit later in this podcast. But tell me about how you got started in 

[00:04:50] Matt: all of this. Yeah, I think like a lot of people that do this professionally, it ended up being out of necessity, not out of choice. My dad and my stepdad, both my grandfathers, passed in about 18 months, about a year and a half.

[00:05:03] So I had four houses to clean out. And I was at a low point in my life anyway, professionally. I really was a very immature young kid. And I was, um, all the men that had raised me passed away. And I was not... Really particularly ready to be the man of the family, and I just started cleaning houses, and it was awful.

[00:05:23] It was horrible, you know, and I was, I was grieving, and I was sad, and I was alone, and all these people I loved just died, and I'm going through their stuff, and You know, you find a lot of great stuff when you clean out your lost, uh, one's homes. But you also find stuff you're not supposed to find. Yeah.

[00:05:38] You know, and so like, I found, you know, some really intense things about my father. And so I was just, I mean, lost, man. And, uh, and then I remember my grandpa had told me, if something sucks, do it as a job. Because people will pay you to do it. And, sure enough... 20 now going on 22 years later. He was totally right.

[00:05:57] I mean it ended up where it really hit for me was that you know I did those four houses took me about a year and then like little old ladies at church would call me and say hey I know you did your dad's house. Would you come help me do my attic and I thought they were just being nice I thought they were just trying to help me and it probably took four or five houses before I realized Oh, no, these ladies actually need my help.

[00:06:18] And I mean this was This was early 2000s, and um, and then I just fell in love with the stories. I mean, I really did. Like, I just, the cleaning was fine. It's easy work if you enjoy talking to people, which I do. And um, but I just fell in love with these people. The people that needed my help. And then I talked, I think I talked about it in the book.

[00:06:38] Like, they would give me a hug. Like a big hug. We'd spend a week together. We'd really get to know each other. They'd give me a big hug. And then they would hand me a check. And I just thought, oh my god. This is awesome! Like I get to connect with this person, I hear all these incredible stories. It was like being in a podcast before podcasts existed because you'd hear these incredible stories for like a week.

[00:06:59] And then you'd go away and, and I just fell in love with these families that I was helping. And I was like, I think I'm just going to do this as a job. And then it just, one thing after another. And then here we are 20 some years later, still helping families. And now, you know, teaching a lot of professionals how to do it more, but I think it was a calling, not necessarily like a, I wasn't like, Hey, I want to go start a business.

[00:07:17] I just wanted to help people. And, and I'll be honest, I lost my way along the 20 years and I got really focused on the money and I failed. Like when you, when I, I tried to get so big because I wanted to get rich helping people and helping people is not about getting rich. Helping people is about helping people and, and I, so I kind of lost my way for a couple of years there and it really set me back.

[00:07:39] And so I went back to a smaller business and just focused on helping people and, and that's when. Life really got good. Yeah. 

[00:07:46] Ingrid: I really loved one of the quotes in your book that the word listen has the same letters as the word silent. And it just, it just hit me. I was like, yes, that is so. And I had never realized it before.

[00:08:02] I don't know why, but it just really resonated with me. I thought, Oh, What an amazing thing to write down because we do, I'm a chatterbox. I mean, everybody knows me a loads and I love to talk when I'm with my clients or when I'm in the membership, you know, with the members, I, I want to hear what they've got to say because it's so interesting and they want to tell their stories and I.

[00:08:25] I just feel good when I can 

[00:08:27] Matt: listen to people. Yeah, and that's not my line. My wife tells me that all the time. And, and my kids would laugh if I told, if you told my kids that I'm teaching people to listen and be quiet, they would absolutely, you know, just keel over laughing. But like, that is a, that is a really important tool.

[00:08:43] You know, it's advice, and it's a great quote, but it's really a tool, right? Like, when you get, especially when you're helping someone, whether you're doing it yourself. Or you're doing it as a professional. That first day, I can't stress, that's the most important thing. Is to listen. Because when you listen, you earn their trust.

[00:08:58] And what I've learned in business really, especially this business, the more you talk at the beginning, Actually, the less likely they are to trust you. Because they think you're trying to, you know, they start to think, well, gosh, this guy's talking so much, is he trying to make me think I should trust him?

[00:09:14] You know, and like, the listening, it's not really about you, it's about them. Yeah. And a lot, I bet a lot of your members are listening thinking, well, but those people's stories are interesting. I'm going to argue right now. Everybody has a fascinating story. Everybody. You and I have had enough time in people's houses to know that.

[00:09:32] You may not think your story is interesting, but a total stranger will think you are fascinating. 

[00:09:39] Ingrid: Very true. Very true. So, you've worked with a lot of clients with a lot of full homes. I have done the same. Why are people so afraid to let go of their stuff? 

[00:09:51] Matt: Oh, so here's the little secret about this whole industry of organising.

[00:09:57] It's never about the stuff, right? It's never about the stuff. In our whole business, we get paid to move the stuff. It's about the people and the memories behind it. And that's why we get stuck, right? We're so afraid to let go because it's new. And I learned this with our hoarders, you know, they would actually create walls, like actual walls to hide behind because it was safer behind the, to hide inside there.

[00:10:21] And this is an extreme example, but they would hide behind their stuff with an eight foot wall of clothes because no one could hurt them inside that house. Right. And that's an extreme example, but take it down to our house. Even you and me, we don't like to let go of everything because some of those things make us feel safe.

[00:10:40] They make us, they remind us of the past. They remind us of someone that we love, but they bring us a little bit of happiness. And so when times are tough, you tend to hold on to more of those things. When, and when. You know, no one calls us and says, Hey, I got a lot of extra time. I got a ton of money. Like, let's just knock this problem out, right?

[00:10:57] Like, it's always like, hey, I got to move on Friday. And I haven't cleaned my house in 25 years. And I got no money. Right, that's usually the phone call I get. And it's, and what's happening is we're throwing up excuses. Excuses are just roadblocks. Excuses are just really, it's just procrastination. That's all it is.

[00:11:14] You want to do this. You wouldn't be calling us, you wouldn't be listening to the podcast, you wouldn't be reading our books if you didn't want the change. But it turns out it's hard. And so when things get hard, you hold on to things that you know. And that's our stuff. The stuff that you, because it's everywhere.

[00:11:29] Right? It's everywhere. And you feel more comfortable with it. And so it's, it's fear of change, it's fear of loss. It's unfounded honestly like if you you know And this is what we talk a lot about this in the book and on all my shows like you've got to be very clear On what you want in life before you start cleaning because if you don't you're never going to actually succeed 

[00:11:49] Ingrid: And you just very briefly mentioned procrastination and I've read a quote in your book that I I loved as well.

[00:11:56] And it says when we procrastinate or simply avoid making a decision at all, we are giving up the ability to control our own destiny. In fact, because of the fear of losing control, we are actually losing control by not taking action on our own. 

[00:12:14] Matt: That's my favorite quote in the book. 

[00:12:15] Ingrid: One. Yeah. I mean, I've, I've literally copied it because I read your book on a, on a Kindle device.

[00:12:22] Yeah. So normally I would have underlined it, but I actually had to write it down on a piece so I wouldn't forget. I love this. And I thought it is so true because we think because by procrastinating, we are like, oh, which is no, but we actually lose the control of where we want 

[00:12:36] Matt: to go. We, we, most of us look, most of us are control freaks, especially the professional organisers just so you know, we're all control freaks.

[00:12:43] And that's why we do this for a living. And, but I'm telling you, I've seen it. I've seen it myself. I tried to control my own move. And you know, spoiler alert, in this book, I actually have to move halfway through it. I'd written half the book, and then I had to move. And it turns out, I was better at giving advice than actually following it.

[00:13:00] And, and it was really challenging. And I procrastinated a little bit. Almost to the point where I almost... Didn't move and I was like, oh my god I'm going to miss out on a new family and the love of my life and a better life for my children If I don't just let go of this dumb stuff, you know And it was like I was like crap when I met when I realized it excuse my language I was like, oh no, like I am my client and I got really upset and I was like I am literally going to miss and that's when I work that quote I mean, I ended up writing it that night.

[00:13:29] I actually put it in my phone. I, I talked about, I, my writing process is, I just, I say, I record a lot of thoughts like that, and then I hammer them out, you know, and I was like, oh no. Have we really been, we're going to lose our life if we try to over control it and it turns out, yeah, we are, in 

[00:13:45] Ingrid: the end. So interesting.

[00:13:46] Another quote that I really, really liked, uh, Matt, was people don't miss the stuff, they miss the people behind the stuff. And it, I think it was in either in, in your book or in one of the emails that we have been doing back and forth. And it really resonated with me. And of course your book, Keep the Memories, Lose the Stuff, has just come out a couple of days ago, hasn't it?

[00:14:05] Matt: Yeah, it's out. Finally. Two year, two year process, man. I mean, it's my, it's my 20 year career. Yeah, right wrapped up in that book and all my advice and all my thoughts and all my expertise and yeah Um, I think it's right about it. I mean the title is right It's it's really never about the stuff. It's about the people attached to the stuff and that's what holds us back and Understandably, I mean we love people and that's what we hold on to these things But we get wrapped up in the materialistic part of it and it's really just the emotional part And so that's why I really you know, this book really focuses on telling the stories Really celebrating the memories as opposed to focusing on how much did that item cost because that doesn't matter What matters is okay your grandma gave that to you.

[00:14:47] Tell me about your grandma Let's tell me some awesome stuff about your grandma, and I'm sorry that she passed I want to hear about her and I think you know you and I we do that All the time with our clients, we, we hear their stories and we get to know them. And, and we hear these incredible stories. And for me, it just hit me one day.

[00:15:03] I was like, Oh, I got to, I got to talk more and listen more. Not because these people would be like, we got to speed it up. We got to go faster or we're not going to get through this house. And I was like, nah, I disagree. I've actually realized the more we share, the slower we are at first, the more we share the stories, the more successful the cleanouts are.

[00:15:17] And I was able to prove that, you know, in small downsizing houses where people it's just, you know, either someone's passed away. Or people are moving to a smaller apartment, um, all the way to a massive hoard, you know, 100, 000 clean out a massive, you know, eight, eight acre property. I also found if you just slow the beginning, take your time, hear the stories, earn trust, get to know these people, celebrate the people that are behind all this stuff.

[00:15:42] Then it turns out the clean outs go pretty fast and it's all about separating. the stories and the memories from the physical item. 

[00:15:50] Ingrid: Yeah. Yeah. Now you in your book describe an eight step process and I, I, that is your main of your first step is indeed uncover the stories behind the clutter, isn't it? It's so important to, to listen and to talk and to find out.

[00:16:05] Matt: Well, that's actually the, that's the second step. My first step, believe it or not is. To know where you're going. And I think this is the mistake people make all the time. People will call us and say, hey, I need to start cleaning. Great. Where are you moving to? Oh, I don't know. I'll do it that later. And I'm like, no, we're going to find out what you're doing.

[00:16:24] Because, because believe it or not, I call it define your finish line, right? Believe it or not, I think your finish line really matters. Sometimes your finish line might be you're going to stay in this house. You're going to age in place. Finish line might be, I'm moving into my adult son's apartment, right? Or I'm going to have a co partner, I'm going to have a co worker, or someone's going to come live with me.

[00:16:42] So a housing, you know, co housing project. The finish line, it's so important to know where you're going, because like, you can't pack for a trip. If you're going on holiday, you can't pack for a trip that you don't know where you're going. Am I packing for the beach or for the snow? And most of our clients call us and they're like, I don't, I don't know where I'm going, but I really got to start cleaning.

[00:16:59] And I'll even argue, believe it or not, that is a form of procrastination because the only thing worse than cleaning. Is deciding where you're going to go. Yeah. 

[00:17:07] Ingrid: You know what? This actually reminds me of my, my own honeymoon. I did not pick out the honeymoon destination. And normally I'm the one who kind of says, this is what, let's do this.

[00:17:16] Let's do that. Where are we going? And in this time, my husband said, you've done a lot of the wedding. I'm going to do the honeymoon. And this is a long time ago. We're talking, you know, 2004. But at one point, I was like, like two days before, like a day after the wedding, two days before the honeymoon, I'm like, I need to know where we're going because I can't pack.

[00:17:36] Are we going to cold hikings? Beach? What's going 

[00:17:40] Matt: on here? That's pretty awesome that you were able to pull that off. I love it. Um, yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a common mistake I see people find. And that's why I had to really, I had to fight with my editors, honestly, um, at AARP and at Penguin Rearing House to put that first.

[00:17:52] They were like, really? And I go, I'm telling you, everybody makes this mistake. It's, you got to know what you're doing first, and then you got to set that goal. And I think the why is really important. That's the second part of that. Like, okay, I know where I'm going, and then why. And like, I tell this example right now.

[00:18:06] I'm, I'm on my own kind of a weight loss journey right now. I kind of had to come to Jesus at the end of, uh, last year. Two things happened. One, I finished the book, and I realized I was going to be going on a book tour, and I was really overweight, and I was like, and it's bothered me for a long time, and I was like, I can't.

[00:18:24] Tell people to make their life better by getting rid of their stuff if I can't take control of the one thing that bothers me the most, which is my weight. You know, I was like, who am I to give advice if I'm not following it myself? And the second part was my 12 year old son said to me one night, he said, Daddy, are you going to die the same time that your dad did?

[00:18:42] And I said, what do you mean? And he goes, well, your dad was 52 when he died. He goes, Daddy, you're only 46. So that means you'll be, if you die at the same time, that's six years. He goes, Daddy, I won't even be in college yet. And I was like, do you think about that? And he goes, I think about it all the time.

[00:18:56] Oh, and I was like, Oh my God, I got, I got to get healthy. And he was like, cause daddy, you say you're going to get healthy. And then, like, I see you eating really bad food. And I was just like, okay. I, and I was like, I got to, I got to be a grandpa. Like, that's what this is about. And so my why, believe it or not, is I want to be a grandpa.

[00:19:16] Like, I want to be around for my kids forever. Because my dad wasn't able to do that for me. And so I put on my wall, I put a big sign that says grandpa. And so anytime I don't, I want to give up on working out. And that's why I was late for this interview. I was walking. I was doing my exercises, right? And I was like, I've got to be able to come back to my why which is I want to be a grandpa and so for anyone cleaning I want you to know where you're going and then the why it might be independence.

[00:19:39] It might be closer to family It might be that's everyone's passed away. You just got to clean the house out to settle the estate I don't care what your why is but put it on the wall put it in front of you like write it on a piece of paper and literally tape that on the wall because that why will keep you motivated when it gets hard and I'm telling you This is a really hard process.

[00:19:58] Most of us have probably been struggling with clutter longer than we've been struggling with weight, believe it or not. And, um, I, I mean, the only thing worse than a really messy hoarder's house is actually a kind of clean house, right? Like a, a house that's not that cluttered. Because you can actually shut the doors.

[00:20:15] You can shut all the doors, and you can ignore the clutter for another five years. That's the worst, because it doesn't affect your life, you know, horribly. A hoarding house, dude, their life's over. Like, until we clean it up, they can't even move forward. But, you know, and a lot of my seniors, you know, work with the downsizing clients, they have to move to a, for medical reasons, they have to move to a, you know, safety reason, they got to move somewhere else.

[00:20:37] But, it's that sweet spot, that 45 to 65, where everything's fine. It's just I got too much stuff and I'm unhappy. That's the most dangerous situation because you can close the door and ignore it. And you can procrastinate for more years. And that's quitting. That's mental quitting in your head over and over and over.

[00:20:53] And so I tell people put that Y up so you don't quit. Because the secret to, believe it or not, the secret to decluttering is just not quitting. It's not really about being, like, the best at it. There's no trophy in, in, I mean, there should be. But there's not, right, it's just about not quitting and finish, getting to the finish line.

[00:21:11] And so I think it's really important to sit on that why. Um, but, to your point, the book is about telling the stories because that'll get you to the finish line faster. I really believe that. And the stories, and, and, the challenging part about telling the stories is you got to have an audience. You got to have somebody there with you.

[00:21:28] And that's why I think it's a lot of times important to hire a professional. Because, we're professional declutters. We got a lot of the... Little tips and techniques, but we also have all the contacts of the people you need to work with to get rid of the stuff But we're also really good listeners and we know how to listen and we're not a tech We don't have negative spins.

[00:21:45] Like if you're telling your adult daughter about this piano. Well, there's a good chance She's angry about this piano, right? She has a negative association to said item. I mean, I've seen families I had one fan and I mean this didn't even make the book. It makes me so mad I had one family that was two adult sisters And they were figh I mean, straight up arguing over a piano.

[00:22:06] Like, straight up. They were It was bad. And these women are in their 60s. And first they start yelling, and they're like, Well, I don't want you to have the piano. I'm like, Well, who plays the piano? Neither of them play the piano. Right? And I'm like, so what, is this just going to be like a coffee table? Like, what's in there?

[00:22:23] Just like, well, and finally the one sister's like, I just don't want her to have it. She finally fessed up, right? She's like, I don't want it. I don't have space for it. I just don't want her to have it. And I'm like, what? And then one of the daughters yells, well, you, your daddy loved you more. These are grown women, right?

[00:22:38] And it comes down to daddy loved one more than the other one. And then I really get to the bottom of it. It was about some boy, right? When they were 16. And these women are now 65. Yeah. One of the girls have kissed a guy and I'm like, fine, let's go on Facebook. So we go on Facebook and I'm like, let's find this dude.

[00:22:54] I want to see what you guys have been fighting over for the last 50 years. Right. And it was like the ugliest man we had ever seen. Like it was God like hooked me up big time because he was like, no. I'm going to show you a picture. This man was so unattractive, and it was like, women, really? This is what we're fighting over?

[00:23:09] And they finally started laughing, you know, and they were like, all right, I don't need a piano. And it was just like, okay, we had to listen to that story, right? And that's not a, that's actually not a positive story. It was hilarious later. At the time, it was really sad and really overwhelming, but these two women just needed someone to kind of listen to them and get past it.

[00:23:27] By the way, we sold the piano. Neither of them kept it. They didn't need it. And they were able to get out of those stories. And that's, what's so challenging about downsizing is these crazy memories and associations. And in that situation, she and her sister thought they were going to clean the house together, man.

[00:23:43] They couldn't have driven to the grocery store together. You know, like, I mean, they just weren't going to. They were not, they were fighting so much about growing up together. So sometimes it's good. Sometimes it's bad, but you need an audience and you know, need someone else to listen, because then that means you can get the stories out and you can like laugh and have fun.

[00:23:59] Ingrid: Let's go for a quick break and we'll be back after break with some more fabulous story from Matt's book.

[00:24:06] Hi, everyone. Welcome back. We are chatting to Matt Paxton from the TV show Hoarders and from his legacy list, and he has written a fantastic book called Keep the Memories, Lose the Stuff, and we are talking about his eight step process, and let's move on to the next part, Matt, because I think that is really important, and that's what the message that Lesley and I I always say in the declutter hub as well, you need to take baby steps, right?

[00:24:34] You need to start small. You can't start with, I'm going to clean out a whole room. I haven't touched these wardrobes in 12 years and I'm going to tackle it all. That's the mistakes we see people make. And it's the same. I love, I was like. It's like in your book reading. I was like, yes, Matt, I completely agree with 

[00:24:51] Matt: you.

[00:24:52] I mean, it's, it's people do. They're like, well, we're going to knock out the garage today. And I even say, look, do a 10 minute sweep. That's probably small for some people. I say, start 10 minutes a night for a week. Um, you might want to pick 20 minutes, 30 minutes. I don't care what time don't let, don't let it be more than an hour.

[00:25:08] Um, the reason I do, it's not about what you successfully clean. It's just about it being consistent. You're getting used to it. It's you're warming up, you're getting used to it and you need to succeed. It needs to be a small area. And so small time, small area. And because I want you to feel, to see like, Oh, I can do this.

[00:25:26] Because if you start in that garage. You're going to fail, and then you're going to quit, and it's over. And so, just, it took you 50 years. This is what I love doing in my speeches. Like, I'll do a big, you know, I'll have three or four hundred people in the room, and I'll say, Hey, how many of you have lived in your house five years?

[00:25:40] And everyone raises their hand and goes, 10, 15, 20. And you always get to like, there's one or two people who have been there 75 years. And, it's amazing. And, If it took you 50 years to fill the house, are you really going to clean it out in a long weekend? Yeah. No! I mean, just no. So, like, don't even try. So I really say, yeah, focus small.

[00:25:59] And you guys see that. And I know a lot of professional organisers that start with a one hour session. Just to get started and to see how it feels. And so I want you to do that consistently for a couple, you know, for maybe a week or two. Do 45 minutes, 30 minutes, something like that. And then just be proud of what you've done and see the success.

[00:26:14] Um, If you can't do anything, my belief is just make sure the sink is clear every night. To me, the sink is the core of the home, right? It's where all the dishes are. You can't eat the next morning if you don't have clean dishes. And if you go to bed with a sink full of dirty dishes, you have already given up.

[00:26:33] You're waking up with homework you haven't completed. Alright, and so you're already starting on the negative. So just, before you go to bed, Finish the dishes if you can do that every night for five days I promise you that will actually make you realize I can do this and it'll make you have a better day 

[00:26:51] Ingrid: Yeah, we call them the resets here in the declutter hub, but I I hear you I'm with you Um, interestingly you go to pictures and documents next in your book and you're like you need to sort those through Why 

[00:27:02] Matt: is it so important?

[00:27:03] Yeah, the worst so pictures and documents are the worst It's the thing I get asked about the most it's actually what I'm not very good at I really have always struggled with pictures myself. Um, a note to listeners, a, uh, an inch thick, uh, what's, we're, I know, we always, we're the only ones that don't, that use the wrong, uh, we don't use metric.

[00:27:24] It's okay, it's okay. Um, you know, a thumb high, a thumb high of your pictures is 200 pictures. Alright, from the base of your thumb to the top of your thumb. That's 200 pictures. So most of us probably have 5, pictures. And you, you can't tell those stories, right? And so I argue you can get down to about 500 to 600 pictures.

[00:27:45] And, um, the reason I have you go, and in the book we talk about the pictures first, and give you all the techniques on that, and then we go into the documents that you need to keep. I actually prefer to get The hardest stuff over first and a lot of people disagree with me on this and and that's okay There's there's a million ways Yeah, you know, there's a million ways to get to the other side of the country You just got to get on a map and I'm and this is the way I do it And so I never say if you have a professional you work with it's better great use their method whatever works for you But I like to get the pictures out of the way because it's usually something that's really held you back for a long time and it weighs heavily on your brain and And it's easy to tell the stories behind the pictures.

[00:28:24] And believe it or not... Not many of the pictures matter. There's a hundred pictures that matter, right? And I'm going to make the, and I've really kind of settled on this in the last two months after I wrote the book. If you're telling stories, you know, you can really only tell about a hundred stories, especially on pictures.

[00:28:42] And so I would rather have a hundred pictures that I know the stories behind than ten thousand pictures that I don't know any of the stories behind. And a lot of times the person that knows the stories, is near end of life, right? And so, I mean, maybe two or three years, but they're not, you know, you've got to get some of the stories out of people.

[00:29:01] And so, I mean, time is of the essence on pictures. So I say, I mean, like, I have a lot of quick, do you want me to go into quick tips? Like, get rid of your duplicates. So everybody has duplicates from the 80s and 90s. Get rid of the duplicates. Get rid of the generic landscapes, which is like, oh, this is a beach.

[00:29:15] I don't know which beach. Oh, this is a mountain or oh, this is a train. I have there's no markings. There's no people You don't know what they're from get rid of those I do throw away the negatives because I've never used them in my 46 years I don't know that I'm going to start now Some people disagree with that, but I say get rid of the negatives and then the fourth topic is Get rid of the people you don't know or don't like I can't tell you how many clients have had they say Oh, that's my ex husband Great.

[00:29:41] Did that end well? No. Haven't spoken to him in 20 years. Why do we have those pictures? Well, I mean, he might need them someday. I'm like, you don't even like the person. Throw him away, man. Like, you're allowed. Get rid of it. And, um, you know, over the age of 50, there's still, this is a, I don't, I actually want your opinion on this.

[00:30:00] Because I was really clear on this in the book. There's a guilt over 50. And I wonder how many of your clients you see that. I, like, My mom, who's, she's still pretty young, she's in her 70s, and I just helped her clean out, and she's like, Oh, the whole time. She's like, well, what would your grandfather think?

[00:30:14] What would your grandfather think? And I'm like, dude, he's been dead 23 years. Like, I think he's okay with it. Like, I don't think he's spending a lot of time worrying about this vase. I got to be honest. You know, and I just see a guilt of 50 and older where they have a really hard time letting go of people, stuff that are dead.

[00:30:32] Yeah, and that sounds really You know blunt and hurtful, but like these people are dead. They don't care. They're not here anymore You need to tell the story celebrate it and then you're allowed to let go of the item You don't have to keep so many people keep these old couches this old brown furniture That they just think they like have an obligation to keep it and you don't your life is your life You need to live it the way you want and so I I, I wonder how much do you see that in the field, like when you're actually helping families?

[00:30:57] Everywhere. Everywhere. Everywhere. And 

[00:30:57] Ingrid: with younger people, um, people that have been given wedding gifts that they haven't used. Yeah. But then later, like you see the, the, the, the over fifties, all the gifts that they've received cupboards and sideboards full of stuff that never comes out. Which, 

[00:31:15] Matt: by the way, you don't even need that cupboard or sideboard.

[00:31:19] More or less the stuff in it, right? Like, I, so I got, I personally, while I was writing this book, I got rid of about 80 percent of my stuff. I, I moved in with a minimalist, uh, my now wife is a minimalist, and our family, we have No stuff. And it's glorious. It's amazing. I love it. But it was really scary at first.

[00:31:37] And we got rid of, I didn't bring any furniture. I brought no furniture. And, except two chairs for my grandma. Um, beautiful mid modern love chairs. Um, but those are things that we can fold up. We can put them everywhere. I love it. I'm telling you that guilt, it will really hold you back. And so I spent a lot of time in the book on that.

[00:31:54] Ingrid: Yeah, because I really want to talk about your legacy list because of course here in the UK, we don't have your show. I watched a couple of clips on yet. Hopefully I'm, I'm, I would love it if it would come here in the UK and I watched a couple of clips on, on, on YouTube just to kind of see what it was all about.

[00:32:11] The legacy list. You say only keep handful of essential items. You mentioned five or six and even I was a little bit like, 

[00:32:22] Matt: wow, it's okay. And I'm an organiser. Yeah, no, I'm all right. So let's talk about it. This is really good. It's not that I want you to only keep five or six items. I want you to designate and identify five or six items that really matter to you that tell your or your family's legacy, their story.

[00:32:39] Originally, I called this a fire list when, you know, 20 years ago when I started cleaning, I would have my hoarders. So a lot of these tips and techniques I learned with hoarders in the extreme case, and now we, you know, brought them back to the just regular. But with a hoarder, I'd try to get them to say, Hey, you can't get it, you can't buy your stuff.

[00:32:54] And what I would do is I'd say, Hey, write on a piece of paper the items you'd want to keep if your house burned down. And they'd be like, Oh, okay. And they would start writing and they'd be like, Well, you know, can I write on the back? And I'm like, sure, do whatever you want. Or, you know, and they would, they would fill two sheets of paper.

[00:33:09] I'd be like, great, your house is on fire. And I would pull out an old stopwatch, like an old track, you know, stopwatch. And I'd, I'd hit it. I'd say, your house is on fire. You got two minutes. Go find those items. You got to be out of the house in two minutes. And at the end of the day, it's basically your pet, your spouse, and maybe one other item.

[00:33:25] That's what you can get out of it. And so the legacy list was kind of rooted in that. And then when I started working with seniors, I was like, wait a minute. I want the six, five to six most important items. And they need to be displayed. And what happens is when you identify that list, and my new show is all about that, it will be, um, it will be overseas international next year.

[00:33:44] We're in negotiations now, so you'll, hopefully it's going to be on Sky, I hope, but we'll know where it's going to end, but you'll all be able to see season 1, next year, which is good. It's a great show, and we go into houses, and I say, I don't care what this item is worth. Tell me the story behind it. Tell me the legacy.

[00:34:00] And so we've helped people downsize and they find, we find five or six items that really matter to them and tell their family's story. And what, what now is happening is you're seeing families identify this legacy list and then they display them in their house. And I, and I'll argue that's what your coverage is for, right?

[00:34:14] That's what the sideboard is for. Like, I want to, I want those items out there. And so it tells you and your family's story. And so you actually live on after. you've passed away because these five or six items tell the family's story. And the show has really taken off in a positive way and we'll talk a lot about it in the book, but I want you to identify those legacy list items first because then it lets you know like the next round of items are just kind of like I'd like to keep.

[00:34:38] They're not must haves. It establishes your first five or six that you must Have and it gets you in the habit of telling all these great stories And what will happen is you'll realize like oh, I don't need as much stuff I really don't because those top five or six items are there i've seen people go to 10 I'll be honest, the reason it's not 10 is I can't put 10 on a TV show in an hour.

[00:34:58] And so, I keep it at 5. So, that's a little, I mean, but I would say keep your list at 10. And then you got to share those stories. You know, you've got to tell the stories. If you put them in a box and put them in storage, that's not a legacy item. That's storage. You've got to clear the space in your house, they've got to be prominent for people to see, so you can tell those stories and share them.

[00:35:17] Ingrid: Well, when I was reading your book, Matt, I, and I really enjoyed it. Really fantastic book. I know, I know we can't go through everything that you talked about, but I really, really wanted to talk about the legacy list because I found it fascinating. And it's really now made me realize, I mean, my mom is going to be 80 next year.

[00:35:33] Yeah. And I thought I need to. Have she is very organised. I know exactly who I got it from. She is like super organised has been her whole life. She doesn't have a lot of stuff, but I need to figure out what her legacy items are, and I want to get those stories because the stories that you describe in the book are just.

[00:35:52] I know they're the stories that I know as well, but it's so lovely to read about them. And it's really kind of made me think I need to get that from my mom. I need to know her stories. I've been asking her for a long time to write a book. She about her life. She said she started, but she doesn't want to finish it now.

[00:36:08] Um, but I still want to get those stories because there's such interesting things in her house. I 

[00:36:14] Matt: can't tell you how many half finished books I found in families where the person dies, they didn't finish it. And so, believe it or not, I use what you and I use right now, Zoom. Uh, I had a lot of families during the pandemic that would do...

[00:36:26] Uh, basically, a legacy less night, which, and what they would, and I didn't know, I mean, this was created on their own by fans, I didn't know, I didn't, I wasn't a part of this, and I started getting messages, people were like, oh yeah, we put my grandma on Zoom, we all watched, and she would, she basically did a show and tell, she'd show four or five items that she just loved, and what she loved about them, and she'd tell the story, and they recorded them, and what I love about this is, you know, it's getting harder to write, look, I just wrote a book, and it was really hard, um, This is 

[00:36:55] Ingrid: one of the reasons why Lesley and I haven't written a book yet!

[00:36:59] Matt: I mean, look, any professional listening to this, 90 percent of the stuff in the book, you're going to be like, yeah, I've experienced that. But what we do is we put it in one place, right? There's a few new techniques, and we stress a few things. I think there's some really good quotes, like you said. Um, the resource section is really, really important here.

[00:37:15] But for most professionals, we know a lot of this. For the independents, for people that are helping their families, I promise you, you'll find everything you need to get started. But at the end of the day, if you do your legacy list... And that's all that you do. You will be a lot further down the journey.

[00:37:28] Because you'll know the four or five items that really matter. And you'll know the stories behind them. And I say record it on Zoom. Because when you do that, it time stamps these stories, right? You've got Grandma, this year, telling the story. And there are grandkids that don't even exist yet, that are going to watch that video.

[00:37:46] In 15 years. And they'll be like, Oh my god, look at Uncle Jimmy, he had hair! You know, like, oh my god! Like, you know, and they'll be like, Look at, that's grandma? Like, I mean, so like, For me, my whole family, except for my mom, Died when I was 24. Right? And my grandma. Who's still alive. My, my 96 year old grandma is still alive.

[00:38:06] And in fact, she gave away a lot of her stuff a couple, uh, like a year ago. She's like, well, I'm dying and I want everybody to see it. And she took, takes great pride in what I do for a career. And she goes on Facebook and comments on it. You'll know who my grandma is if you follow me on Facebook. And, uh, in fact, a e has asked her to stop commenting a few times because of the, the hoarders.

[00:38:24] She'll say mean things on the hoard because people will say mean things about me online. And she's like, no, that's my grandson. And she just sits in her bed all day online, but like, she gave all her stuff away. And then she got better and she's like, hey, um, I'd like some of that back Can you write some of the stuff back and we're like no nanny is done but like I just I I think if you time stamp this you'll really get to um, you get a you get a part of life that people won't Well, see, my kids don't know my grandparents, they know my grand, my great, their great grandma, but no one else.

[00:38:54] Like, they never met my dad, but they can tell you five or six stories about my dad and my grandpa. I mean, like, they, they'll come up to me, they're like, Dude, tell that story about the time a bear chased you in grandpa's truck, right? I was ten years old, and a bear chased us. And, moral of the story, I mean, literally, a bear was chasing us in an old mountain, a very old pickup truck.

[00:39:12] My grandpa, I think about it now, my grandpa must have been freaking out. Because a black bear is chasing us. And he's like, throw the fish out, throw the fish out. So my brother and I both threw out all of our fish. So we threw 16 fish on the road. And it made the bear stop. He started eating them. We got in the truck and we drove away.

[00:39:28] My grandpa was like, well, where's all the fish? And we were like, we threw it away for the bear. And he's like, you only had to throw one fish. You didn't have to throw 16. Right? And it's like, oh yeah, that's, that makes sense now, you know. And we were just, we were all scared to death, we couldn't believe it.

[00:39:41] But like, I tell that story, my grand, my kids tell that story, word for word. Right? And they, and then they never even met my grandfather. My grandfather died ten years before they were conceived. And I love that they do that. And that's a legacy, right? And so, I have my little, my grandpa's little fishing, uh, weight.

[00:39:57] It's a little, like a pocket fishing, uh, wear. And that's one of my legacy list items. And, it's because of that story. And my kids will, will tell it on it. So I tell you that legacy list, I promise you. You all have great stories. If you tell them and you document them, they will live on forever. And I think, I think this is kind of a weird way that I keep my dad alive.

[00:40:16] You know, I tell these stories. I mean, people now, they're like, I get on stage and they're like, Tell that story about your dad, man. Like, we love that story. And there's some good ones in the book about my dad. He's been dead. He's cooler dead than he was alive. You know? And it's because we've done a really good job building legacies.

[00:40:30] And everybody out there deserves to have a legacy. And it's the items that we're holding on to. to preserve these people. You don't need the items. Tell the stories. You can get rid of the items. You can move on and have a better life and tell more stories about your loved ones. And by the way, I mean, something we really learned a lot this year on the TV show Legacy List was you got to remember, I mean, a lot of my clients are 65 year old women and I'm like, hey, don't forget like Your Oma now, like your grandma now, like it is time for you to be the old lady.

[00:41:01] And you got to start telling the stories. You don't need to be holding your grandma's stuff all day long. Like don't miss out on the next 30 years. Preserving the past. 

[00:41:11] Ingrid: Thank you so much, Matt listeners. Are you inspired? Take action after listening to Matt. Are you going to create a legacy list? Are you going to think about the stories?

[00:41:23] Are you going to do a zoom with your grandma and listen to her stories and record all of those? Because that sounds like an amazing idea. We will definitely put a link to Matt's book in the show notes. Go to declutterhub. com forward slash one seven six, and you will find it there because it is a lovely book to read.

[00:41:41] Don't miss out on that. So Matt, thank you so much for being a guest on our show. It's been absolutely amazing that you were here talking to us, um, about your book and all your stories. I've really enjoyed it. Hey, 

[00:41:53] Matt: thank you so much for having me. And, uh, for all your listeners, man, just, I hope the, I hope the podcast finds you inspired.

[00:41:58] I know you keep listening because of that. And if you get the book, I promise you, you will laugh. You will cry. And you'll probably call your mom at the end of it, but you will be motivated to get up and do something. 

[00:42:08] Ingrid: Indeed. So we are back next week with sensible storage ideas for your clothing. So listen in next week.

[00:42:16] We can't wait to see you then listeners. So thank you so much and see you soon.
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Episode 369 – 10 items to declutter from your home office

Episode 366 – Turning my room of doom into a room of dreams with member Emma

Episode 365 – How long will it take me to declutter my house?

Episode 363 – Before you blame the clutter are you doing these 10 things?

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Cali says:

24 May 2022 at 10:43 AM

Loved this episode as a keen Family Historian and ongoing declutterer – so many things to think about and action

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1. Ingrid Jansen says:
  
  25 May 2022 at 10:38 AM
  
  Thank you Cali! It was such an honour to speak to Matt about this important topic. Can I suggest you also listen to episode 189 with Hazel Thornton? That one will be right up your street as well.
  
  Reply
Episode 176 – Keep the Memories, Lose the Stuff with Guest Matt Paxton

Episode 369 – 10 items to declutter from your home office

Episode 366 – Turning my room of doom into a room of dreams with member Emma

Episode 365 – How long will it take me to declutter my house?

Episode 363 – Before you blame the clutter are you doing these 10 things?

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