A photograph of a smiling Jasmine Sleigh the podcast guest expert
Episode 7 – Guest Expert Jasmine Sleigh Discusses Her Work and Understanding Hoarding

Our guest today is Jasmine Sleigh, Owner of Change Your Space, based in Devon. Since 2014, Jasmine has been working with local councils, social services, mental health teams, and the Fire Service with clients who are living in dangerously full homes. She has worked with many people who have a pronounced hoarding issue in their homes, sorting their belongings and making spaces safer. In this podcast, we begin understanding hoarding.
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Transcript of this podcast episode
0:07  
Welcome to today's episode of The Declutter Hub Podcast, your channel for super easy, no nonsense advice on how to declutter and organise your home. Please welcome your host, professional organisers, Ingrid Jansen and Lesley Spellman.

0:25  
Hello and welcome listeners to episode seven of the Declutter Hub Podcast. I'm Lesley and I'm delighted to welcome good friend and colleague Jasmine Sleigh, who's going to give us some insight into the work she does with people who have a hoarding issue in their home. In Britain, I worked with Jasmine on the board of the Association of Professional decluttering and organisers, and she has since become a UK specialist in and expert in hoarding. Jasmine owns change your space, a professional organising business based in Devon. She spent the last five years working with local councils, social services, mental health teams and the fire service with clients who are living in dangerously full homes. She has worked with many people who have a pronounced hoarding issue in their homes, sorting their belongings and making spaces safer. Welcome, Jasmine. Hi, Lesley. Thanks for having me. You're very welcome. It's great to have you here. So Jasmine, the aim of today's podcast is to try and explain to our listeners what traits a hoarder has compared to someone who is overwhelmed with stuff and disorganisation. Because there's a very big difference. So you've done lots of work with both types of people. How do you actually know if someone is a hoarder? I think that's a really important question, because we see people at all ends of the spectrum when we're working. But there's a real giveaway for me, I think, when I'm, when I'm speaking to somebody, whether they've got a very much more pronounced hoarding tendency, or even perhaps hoarding disorder, rather than, you know, simply perhaps being overwhelmed, a bit overwhelmed with unresolved stuff. I can often even tell this on the telephone, as the sort of first giveaway for me is that the person might have a really detailed explanation and a full rationale for why items in their home or they're in the first place and cannot be moved. So kind of in the conversation, you get a real pronounced sense that they are stuck without any window to let some items go, there's an explanation for why every item, there's going to be a problem with it being let go. And it just you can get a sense that it's a more full on compulsion that's running their thinking,

2:32  
as sort of integrated itself into the sense of who they are and their home. So it's much more of a kind of permanent modes mindset that takes a lot of working through to resolve. Yeah, it is. I mean, it's,

2:46  
you know, everyone's nervous if they're speaking to a professional organiser for the first time. But you can really tell if somebody is finding this, hugely more problematic, because they're, they're suffering with a hoarding issue than somebody who's coming to you, because they've got stuff that they need to just sort out in their home. So I'll give you an example.

3:10  
So last month, I had a call from a lady, she was ready to make a change in our home. I mean, she's very brave picking up the phone in the first place. But she spoke to me and she explained, she hadn't got any central heating, and was embarrassed to have the engineers round due to newspapers being stacked around in her home. So I asked her the question, What's holding you back from recycling most of those new newspapers, I mean, we're very careful. And we do so why not checking out the whole lot, we say kindly, what's holding you back from recycling most of those newspapers. And she explained to me that she has to read every paper, that it would be wasteful in her mind to be wasteful, not to have made sure she'd looked through each page, it wasn't going to be straightforward. So I suppose the next question for me is to ask her, okay, so how many papers are coming into your home per week? And she said to me, around four, I buy two at the weekend, and I get the two free papers that come through the door anyway. So in that conversation, you're getting a real sense that not only is the backlog, filling her home so much that she's having personal problems. Not only is she having to have an explanation of why they're all there, and why they can't just go, but also she's got a compulsion that she still has to acquire papers. Yeah. And I suppose for most of us that that combat compulsion and that attachment to those newspapers, we most of us would regard that as irrational and that's the difference, isn't it? I guess. So. That's, that's an example that you've got with someone with newspapers. And that carries on through with other things in the home appreciate him as well. So things like clothes, books, food, even stationery, that kind of thing. So

5:00  
can be any type, or it could be everything as well as that, you know, copy and attachments, everything in the home. Absolutely, sometimes it's a very specific type of item. So I've met people who have really strong attachments to certain types of things in their home. But other items you've got a bit more leeway with in terms of addressing, sorting and potentially letting some items go. But you can go into homes where the anxiety around holding on to belongings has bled in, if you like, to every aspect of their home. So it can be anything, and it's anything where they made a reason in their mind for the acquisition, and non disposal is so crucial to them.

5:46  
So that draw is really powerful as well, as I've mentioned there, you know, it can allow a person in that circumstance to, to swap daily comforts and safety that we take for granted in our homes for that what I would call hoard to you, you know, to you. But I mean, obviously, that's not why I call it to the client.

6:07  
So that hoard becomes so important to them, that they will swap it for being comfortable in their home. So my clients will pronounced hoarding issues, will often have no heating in their home, they're perhaps unable to have people and family over, they may not even be able to have

6:28  
carers over to look after their physical needs, because there's nowhere for them to sit down and address their their physical needs, for example. So they may not be having access to their bed or otter, not able to boil the kettle and make a cup of tea, or they're putting themselves at considerable risk just moving around their home, it's really pronounced. So what's happening really, is that this stuff is becoming more important to them than their own well being and sort of general health and, you know, feeling good about their life, really, and this stuff is sort of taken over, isn't it? Yeah. And it's, it's one of the real difficulties with hoarding, that makes it so markedly different to working with somebody who's ready to make a change and is not so held back by that in creating anxiety that hoarding has, which is that for them. It's personally more painful to address the hoard the items, they're stockpiling with that full, full rationale that that won't allow them to let things go. It's more painful to address that than live with the

7:37  
inconvenience of being without heat and water. Most of us, no matter how hard we find the decluttering process would not make that swap. So that's why we real hoarding is so rare. They reckon it affects I don't know, about between two and 5% of the population, but the impact on the person, their whole life, their family and environment can be considerable.

8:04  
I just wanted to jump back to something that you just said before, Jasmine, you talked about that you wouldn't address it as a hoard to the hoarder. And that you would call it something differently. Do you think that's a really important thing? Or do you think that the hoarder

8:21  
knows that that knows that they are you are a trying to sort of brush over that? Why do you why would you not call it Hoard? I think I try and avoid the word hoarder and hoard because I think

8:34  
it then steps into them and our situation obviously, in in working with somebody, I do want to be on their side and want to beat them to feel as if I understand where they are.

8:46  
And so starting to use that terminology does, it feels a bit judgmental. The only difference is when I'm working with people where, you know, I might say, Look, this looks like a to me a much more pronounced hoarding issue. Would you like me to help you phrase a letter for your GP, for example, because some people are living in an environment that, you know, they're, they're not getting the right support. And, you know, sometimes it can be helpful to say, I think you need to acknowledge you, you do have this issue, it looks to me like you've got this issue. I'm not a psychologist. I can't make the diagnosis. But I would only use that terminology, if we were seeking to get some of the support and calling their belongings that they've invested themselves in so much a hoard does diminish it, I think a little bit. It's quite disrespectful then working with it. Yeah. I think sort of for the purposes of this podcast, then it's quite important for us to distinguish between the two. And there's very blurred lines, you know, it's very, very, there's no where where that point crosses and it can pull back and move around and so on. So it's really blurred lines, isn't it? When I've always tried not to label anybody that I work with, with anything. It's all about what we can do for you and in your circumstances, but some

10:00  
times it's important where that psychology kicks in to understand that there's a there's there's going to be more needed than just a professional organiser in someone's Yeah, absolutely. Right. Yeah. So once you've gone gone through that process then so we've worked out those very irrational and holding on to things by someone who's got a hoarding issue. So how can how do you actually work with somebody as a professional organiser, if they don't want to let anything go?

10:27  
I didn't know, the first thing that I can do is I try and

10:34  
acknowledge those explanations and that full rationale that they have around their belongings, like you say, no matter how unreasonable I think it is, or how hindering hugely hindering it is their life, I have to go at it. Knowing that this is a construct, if you like, that's allowing this person to stay on top of things is, is allowing them to function and stay in control. So

11:02  
you know, I acknowledge it's part of their full on anxiety about their life and,

11:11  
and things that are might have happened to them. And so they might sound a bit defensive, they might be a bit abrupt, it might feel like you're wading through mud, if you like in terms of trying to

11:26  
make some progress. But I think the starting point for me, is always trying to say, look, I hear you, I don't, you know, I'm not judging those, those explanations. I'm hearing what you say I'll perhaps repeat back to them what those those reasons are.

11:46  
And just acknowledge them rather than dismiss them. And that's quite hard to do. Even as a professional organiser and five years of experience, I still have situations where you just you get on the edge of just saying, honestly, the newspapers need to go. You can't. And I, I can very much understand why family and friends find it really tricky, because they care more about the person than they do about the items that are being stockpiled. And so it must get very frustrating for that first starting point. You know, I hear you, I understand what you're saying the reasons why this and that can't go. I think that's so right, as well. And I think the anxiety that you talk about and the way that that affects the way that people work with you. That's true of people who are overwhelmed with clutter as well. So you know, more so perhaps people who've got a pronounced hoarding issue, but anxiety definitely plays a part of a big part of life with my clients. Because ultimately, we're pushing people or taking people on a journey out of their comfort zone really. And that anxiety can be so debilitating and really affects someone's mood and how they interact with you on a day to day basis, really. So it's so important to know that whoever you're working with, might have those ups and downs and mood swings throughout the day, and that it's nothing personal. Would you agree with that? I do. And I think you're exactly right, that it does cover the full spectrum of working with somebody and sometimes you can be really surprised you can be working with somebody, and you know, something comes up where people have got big defences around it. And that can take you by surprise with with people who really sort of pronounced with hoarding. When I have the first session i i expect doors to be closed, not like literally. But like all options to be rolled out. And I it's taken me a long time to to just get over that as a sort of problem solving kind of person, she would be as a professional organiser not to go, Well, why don't you try this? Or why don't you try this, alright, it's just expect that they're going they have their reasons, they're gonna close the doors and just, if you stay on side with them, there is going to be an opportunity because they've often approached you or they're ready to make a change for some reason. So just to be patient and to be

14:07  
and be kind, you know, kindness, acceptance and humour, and a sense of personal connection. They are a long way to build trust. If somebody who wants to retain they really want to retain control more than your sort of more average client, they absolutely would be terrified at the idea of losing control. But it's, it's tricky work for sure.

14:31  
So So we've gotten to this point. So can you give us a specific example of where you've been asked to step in? I think I think a lot of your work is referred by agencies, isn't it? A lot of my holding work that I've done in the past is private clients or people that are coming to me directly, which sometimes is a little bit easier because they then made the decision that they want to change for themselves, rather than that being forced onto them by a third party. Not that you know, it's with the best of intentions of course it is

15:00  
But it's a very different psychological feeling, isn't it when you've made that decision for yourself, so because your a lot of your work is referred by the fire service or social services, have you? Can you give any examples of where you've where you've done that and worked in the home? Yeah, so there's, we've had

15:17  
many cases where we've perhaps been called in. Because there's no clear route from the lounge to the kitchen, for example, an items or stockpile a stockpile downstairs, chances are they've been items have been significantly stockpiled upstairs, it is more common than not, if it's a full home, that person's actually sleeping downstairs. So they are bringing their clothes down, because that's where they're getting dressed and doing everything.

15:45  
So it's normally the for housing officers gone in, they've seen it's really full, I don't know, there's, there's not safe around the fire, although they've perhaps I'm not even using the fire. But, you know, they're it's making their tenancy start to be at risk. So with Housing Offices with their visit, you know, when they have their electrical checks, it's in council housing, that might flag up a problem that the

16:11  
electricians and plumbers and for example, weren't able to gain access. So we get called in,

16:17  
to perhaps start working with the tenant to making the through ways better. I mean, they don't call us in obviously, we're not clearance, we're not going to magic away what's there, but to start to work with the person on on starting to make things a little bit safer in their home. We've we've recently had a lovely case, where we've been working with somebody who couldn't be discharged from hospital. So you're working with the hospital discharge team, mental health case.

16:50  
So mental health Ward, and the gentleman in question, ad had a pronounced issue over a number of years. But the fundamental difference was, obviously say explaining to, to the agencies that yes, the person does have to be involved. So So you know, I have to go and collect the person from hospital and they have to work with us. It's we don't make the decisions for him. I think, London, isn't it, Jasmine? Yeah, very valid point. There are a lot of people, and particularly because of the hoarding the TV programmes that have been on about hoarding, a lot of people will jump automatically to the conclusion that we're going to just clear and check everything in the skip, and not work sensitively through things. And that's really important. And that's why people are sort of scared to ask for help, because someone's going to take over and make them make decisions that they don't want to make. Absolutely, or they reckon of that sort of, potentially 2% of the population that suffer with really pronounced hoarding disorder. So that's where they've, they absolutely have swapped quality of life for stockpiling belongings, and they, they really feel anxious about letting them go of that 2% Only 5% are known to support agencies. So there's very few people coming forward. And the most important thing, no matter how people have come to me, whether that's been their

18:10  
physiotherapist, it's recommended. They make the contact, whether it's the housing officer, or it's sometimes we do get private calls. You know, because this lady, you know, she wasn't able to get a central heating address, he knows that's the imperative. Most important thing for me is that a huge step they've made most hoarding goes completely hidden.

18:33  
And if you think of the risk those people are potentially in in their homes, that's quite significant. And most important thing that I'd want to sort of relay is, is hugely important that they've made that step, and that now they are on that route, they need to be treated with respect and dignity and where possible, they retain control of what happens to their belongings. It's so useful now here down in Devon, to be

18:57  
an I know, it's happening across the country, which fantastic is to be recognised as a service that is useful before things get to absolute crisis level. And for me, that's, that's really helpful, you know, before people are unable to make decisions, because structurally, something's happened to the house or there's been nothing, you know, there's something has happened in the home that's led to that only being a fast paced clearance option, which is going to be deeply traumatic for them.

19:27  
So obviously, we've talked so much about trust and how important it is trust and respect, I think isn't out of people's belongings. So once you've made that leap, when you've actually started working with someone, how do you get them to believe that you're not just going to throw everything away when they're not looking?

19:44  
It's really important.

19:46  
You know, I think I know I know when I'm in a home where you know, I was today, for example, I worked with somebody whose home was very full, but they left me to fulfil beanbags in the other room while they were working.

20:00  
Given somebody else, and they were not about to check the bags or anything, she trusts me I have been working with for a while she trusts me to put things in the bag. But

20:08  
with somebody with hoarding disorder, you will have to you pick things up from the floor, and you have to present it out in your hand them to pick out what's useful and what's not useful. It's, you have to find ways slows the process right down, of course, but you must keep doing it no matter how frustrating it might seem. The process is more important than the outcome. And that's hard for me sometimes, because I've been tasked by your

20:35  
social services to show results from the time that I'm there. But I think if I don't keep them on side of that process, if I don't show that I'm not just putting things in beanbags. And they're not looking if I don't keep asking, checking. Okay, you're absolutely closing this door to me that we can't look through the books. You're absolutely sure. So, recently,

21:00  
you exploring those areas, if they give you a blanket, they say no, then you move on to something else you respect that. And when I say that, I worked with a lady and her daughter recently.

21:12  
And it was the first session that I worked with her and

21:16  
it was a counsel referral. And I said to her right from the outset, I'm gonna make mistakes today, because I don't know you well enough, yet, I'm going to ask the questions that you're gonna be saying, absolutely, I'm not going to do that. I said, I've got to ask, and you tell me and I will listen. But let me try certain things out and stay comfortable. I, you know, always feels like a harsher sort of session.

21:42  
But, you know, she knows that I am treating her like an adult. So the interaction is adult to adult, as opposed to I've stormed in, like, mum who's telling a child to tidy up their room. So it's keeping that non judgmental tone, asking, checking, and man, you've got to be quite clever

22:05  
about making spaces when people don't want to make spaces. So is, is finding any avenues of possible flexibility and say, right, let's see what we can do here. Even if it's kind of just right, this first session, we're gonna organise things, we're not looking to you to let go of anything, we're just going to make it make your belongings more accessible to you. So keeping it nice and positive, as opposed to a big stick, you know, you've got to do this, because otherwise your housing officer is gonna escalate the issue. So keeping it nice and positive, then, yeah, definitely. So it's kind of working on and focusing on progress, rather than the amounts of stuff that's going out, I guess, and then ultimately, then they can keep control and know that that's moved on in the way that they wanted it to.

22:53  
Absolutely right. I mean,

22:56  
you know, when I say look at the different avenues that this with this particular household recently, you know, I might ask, So, what's the cupboard like, at the back? What's that got in it, and the lady said, oh, there's books in there. Some I want to keep, and I'm hearing the word some.

23:16  
That's like, she said, some I want to get this, that's a real winner. Because you know, she said, right, all of those I need to keep I can I respect

23:23  
all of those, there's no point even opening the cupboard. So there was some of them I want to keep.

23:28  
And I think that is a breakthrough, Jasmine, because

23:32  
people who are not necessarily got taught in issues, tend to view books as a complete collection, you know, so quite often, we'll definitely get a kind of don't touch my books at all. So rather than seeing them as individual items, like everything else, they very much see them as a complete collection. And so that is an untouchable collection. So no, when I'm working with clients, I have to sort of push people a little bit more to maybe look at them on an individual basis. And then once we get going, a lot of them will go naturally, but people have that, you know, resistance at first because they're so special. And that can be the case, you know, books it is for a lot of people, it can be shoes, for some people, it can be clothes, etc, whatever it is, it can be toys, but for some people to, um, kids toys and things. So no, it's really important that you talk about books, and that must be incredibly hard for someone who is a hoarder. Absolutely. Right. And I think I mean, don't get me wrong, I think she meant in that particular situation, I think she meant somebody wants to keep and somebody wants to sell or, you know, there was something else he wanted to happen very specific. And, and in that. So right, let's look through the cupboard, pull out the ones because it's right at the bat. They're the ones you want to sell. Let's get those out. So you've got chance to sell them. So, you know, honouring the fact that she wants to do something particular by but actually, when she started to look through there were some that she was happy to let go. There was a specific charity that she wanted to support with them. And I did have to check each of the books individually, make sure she hadn't put

25:00  
things in it. It's a, it's a much more careful,

25:05  
protracted process. But importantly, as I focused for her, she knew she had the books the way that she wants to keep

25:14  
identified some she wants to sell. And you know, to two or three bags are going out for charity, which I was, there was no expectation for me and I leave the bags there. So there's no expectation. But if you know that there's some books, and it's just making it, it's okay. It's okay, if nothing goes in the bag today, first session. But actually, I was really, I was really pleased because it was difficult for her, but she wasn't being forced. And that's the important thing. Yeah, it's just making some progresses and positive progress in that day. Because it's hard, isn't it, because you have to keep them, they keep the momentum going. You have to keep you have to motivate people forward by making progress. But you've got to find that find that balance, I guess, to make it make it happen. So why why are people hoarding? So what where does that come from?

26:03  
Well,

26:04  
I mean, I think it's important for me to say right from the outset, I don't always get to the bottom of it, I'm not there really to, to psychoanalyse them, and there to help them with their belongings and don't always really get to the bottom. But I mean, there are plenty of academic papers that examine the sort of triggers of trauma and deprivation, to starting this cycle of relying on acquiring stuff to make you feel better and in control in what would feel to them as an otherwise sort of crazy, chaotic and unforgiving world. So there's plenty written on that. But in my experience, my clients that that hoard, they have a deep sense that the world out there is not going to look after them, that they are on their own, and they need to protect themselves. So that might be something recent, they allude to,

26:56  
you know, sometimes people have said, Oh, I've been broken into, and I can see that they've stockpiled things right up against the front and back door. But actually, if they're holding as well, chances, are they they were highly anxious before that.

27:10  
So yeah, they have this sort of sense where the world is out there is not going to look after them. And purchasing of items has become a coping strategy for that intense anxiety.

27:24  
But yeah, we don't always get to the bottom of what the trigger has been.

27:28  
But certainly try to focus on the here and now really, yeah, it's about drawing a line under it really isn't. And forward. Obviously, the psychological side of it is more important, perhaps them with people with hoarding issues, because it is going to need some kind of psychological involvement. But you know, it's interesting that you're talking about deprivation,

27:52  
and trauma, really. So those are in my experiences, the two things and it's not, it's often not just one trauma, it's often trauma after trauma, after trauma. And sometimes when you hear the stories and the things that people have to go through in their lives, you don't know how they're even getting out of bed in the day.

28:09  
For some people who are who are hoarding, that, that trauma, it feels like it happened yesterday to them, Do you know who you are, right? Those, those.

28:23  
There are people who've had all sorts of really terrible things, and they and sometimes they will share those with you. And in my experience, those people are really in a really difficult situation. They, it's as fresh today. That trauma, as it was, you know, as it was 10 years ago, whenever it feels really all encompassing. And so that's that makes it really difficult. Now, you know, people will find, then it's more understandable, isn't it, people will find some way in which they're going to try and get through the day and see some control over over a world that's kind of made these horrible things happen to them. Yeah, it's because there's a thought process, isn't it, that stuff is never going to let you down, you know, it's gonna be the control over buying, you've got control over where you store it and put it and look at it so on and so it's just that, that stuff's not going to let you down in the same way that perhaps people or circumstances have in the past. Absolutely. And that sort of self soothing, I mean, you know, we all know what it's like to I don't know what a glass of wine after a long week is a sense of a coping strategy. But we can't know what it's like in this we've lived it. Or we've had a family member to know what it's like to be an alcoholic. And so I think in the same way I kind of think of it the same way with with with hoarding is that we all know what it's like to self soothe with going and buying something and getting that dopamine hits that kind of feel good brain hit of, Oh, I've treated myself you know, I deserve something and self soothing

30:00  
We know what that feels like, but we can't understand them what it's like to have, it's such a pronounced issue for us that, you know, we go into homes where there are literally hundreds, if not nearly dozens of carrier bags of things that have been purchased as a self soothing coping strategy that clearly is now out of control. And that's the difference, I think, between hoarding and, and just collecting a bit too much stuff because, you know, and, and self soothing in that way, it's become much more compulsive, I suppose. Yeah, I think it's, it's fair to say that the general public are less accepting perhaps of hoarding disorder than than alcohol or drug misuse, because that's very much in the headlines, and people tend to have come across people that have suffered from that. But hoarding disorder is, is still quite hidden, and people are quite secretive about it. And people don't understand it as well and judge it quite harshly in general of people, don't they? So we've got a long way to go to sort of address that and get over it. But it has gotten much better, hasn't it in the past, you know, other things with this social services getting involved and waiting before, like you said, before it gets to crisis points, and so on. So people are waking up to the fact that this needs to properly be addressed, and that people need to be treated appropriately to get to get through that. Absolutely, I think,

31:22  
because a hoarding can go hand in hand with self neglect. And because, you know, somebody's neglecting themselves,

31:32  
that you know, how houses can be a little bit

31:36  
unkept is how I'm going to say it, but you know, even on the television, there's sort of, it becomes a bit voyeuristic or the sense of squalor in our home. And some people say, I can't understand how people would live like that.

31:51  
And though it looks like a choice, it isn't a choice, like I said, right at the start that these people have, they have chosen to wait, but there is far more personally painful to them to, to live differently than, than it is to face up to that full pelt of the anxiety that they're feeling. So it's, I suppose, when you start explaining to people, their own sort of inclinations. So, you know, and how they can spiral out of control. So, you know, my mother in law will say, Oh, you know, I always used to have, you know, a pencil would be really special when I was younger, and, and so when we we moved, moved to Arizona moved house, she said, I don't want you to judge me, but I, you know, I've got a whole load of a whole box for those special pencils, I'm going to be like one of your clients, you know, so and I said, you know, she knows what it's like to have something special and to collect it, not irrationally, and we just got a box, a massive box for pencils. I said, the difference is, if you had so many pencils, you couldn't help but collect them. And then you couldn't get into your own bed because you had so many pencils. That's where my that's where my clients get to. And I think then that tips it from, you know, being something that's

33:13  
not to poke financial wasn't poking fun, but something very unusual and kind of otherworldly to kind of actually, that that a bit of sympathy

33:24  
to have got out of control in that way. And it's really important to make that distinction distinction, I think, isn't it and there are so many peoples who kind of maybe flippantly sometimes will call themselves a hoarder, you know, and that's just a kind of tenants become quite jokey, I think, for some people as well.

33:42  
So,

33:44  
yes, do your clients always tell you why then, I think we've alluded to that. So I think you've said that sometimes they will share and sometimes they won't share. And it's not always entail. It's not that it's irrelevant, because of course, it's not irrelevant, but it's not always necessary to achieve success in the decluttering processes. Because it is about that kind of drawing a line under things and moving forward.

34:07  
Absolutely. I mean, I don't press them. I mean, I think I try and stay stay on task with them about what it is that they want to achieve themselves. So we're like, you know, alongside each other on the project, I'm not trying to probe them for for information about why this is started is and I sometimes have to be very clear in in my sort of aims and objectives for support agencies, they're like, Well, you know, did you get to the bottom of you know,

34:39  
now, working with them on getting a bit more three way space, what I am working with them on is

34:46  
you know, it this has become a holding has become a very much an integral part of their identity and place in the world. Then I can only work with them and try and find, find what's going to work for them in that time.

35:00  
face. And also, like a lot of decluttering, I suppose for them to experience is a bit like behavioural therapy, you know, like,

35:08  
like phobia therapy, they get exposed to the thing that frightens them the most, in a kind of safe environment. And going through their belongings is what frightens them the most, the fear of it just being got rid of is what frightens them the most.

35:24  
Making decisions sometimes is what frightens them the most. And they've been in that environment, it's not been as bad as they thought they've survived it. And they'll let you in next week. For me, that's, that's so massive progress. And that's why I need to sort of make sure I relate to agencies and to family members and things like that, that that is a good point of call. You don't have these sort of breakthrough moments where suddenly there's a reflection, it may be too complicated for them to ever understand where that compulsions come from

35:57  
where there's, you know, there's rarely that breakthrough moments because of this, that I do this, and then it all goes away. I mean, I don't know, if anyone has ever ever experienced that. It's just about each day making some sort of sense. I'm, I'm gaining control back on my life. And actually, it's, it's all right, I'm still alright, in all that. That's what I hope for them anyway. Yeah, definitely. So that so there's there are going to be people then listening to this podcast who have

36:26  
might know that they've got hoarding disorder themselves, or they've got a loved one, and are absolutely scared to death, about what might happen if someone comes into the home to tackle the clutter. Have you got any? So you've talked a lot about your clients and small amounts of progress. Can you talk about any success stories?

36:45  
Yeah, I can. I mean, obviously, as any sort of reflective practitioner, I know, right in the front of my mind, the ones where it didn't work, and they weren't ready. And I do wonder how they've got on, you know, two years later, I drove past houses, and it's even more significant, sort of outside of their property. And I

37:06  
you know, I always feel quite sad that that's it we've we've not got to a better option for them. And chances are, it's going to escalate for clearance to be an only option, for example.

37:19  
But the success working in a home of somebody at hoses is small stuff that really sticks in your mind. It may not be as conclusive as you get from the TV programmes where, you know, there's a team of people persons volunteer, I know none of my clients would ever agree to being on TV. You know, the skips outside that have been agreed to it's all isn't large projects stuff. For me when I'm working with somebody one on one who it's take them a lot to get to the stage where you're in their home. It's so small things that have happened for them that's that's really stuck in my mind. So you know, we've avoided we've avoided eviction for householders we know we've been there and got to a situation where it's been discussed, de escalated and persons able to stay in their home rather than what it really terrifies them which has been moved without their say so

38:14  
we've allowed people to come home from the hospital. We recently worked with a gentleman

38:21  
it seems to my mind because he was unable to go home after a spell in mental health ward in hospital is homeless so fallen inaccessible and thankfully the hospital had heard about us and and asked us to work with him. He'd had years of mental health issues and he was ready to he was ready to work with SCE had really no option and he wanted to go home. So we did this work with him we conducted like you know short 30 minute bursts with him of one category of belongings let him have a break for some food and then did another 30 minutes kept as straightforward for him as possible. We made sure he was comfortable. We honoured as options for waste or charitable donation we helped him recycle what we could reopen even helped him sell a couple of items. We stayed on side basically and had this this sort of mantra with him that if you are unsure then keep so you say you know what, what about this item. So if you're unsure then keep it in that environment ie only field loads for blue bags of charitable donations and things were coming out of his home bit that he found the process really personally difficult. And he was in a safe place with us and we really enjoyed working with him. We really saw trust builds over the the four sessions that we were funded for. And recently we've we've been back to do some small scale work with him and we stood in his kitchen and it made a put the radio on and made us a cup of tea and

40:00  
And

40:01  
it's a huge deal. Because a month ago he couldn't get into his kitchen. And through his work it's not clearance his work with that's supporting him facilitating and fast tracking the decisions he was ready to make. He's got some pride back in his home and pride back some dignity back for himself as well. And so

40:25  
I just is isn't full scale we have we finished in his home, no, we haven't finished in his home,

40:32  
is he going to have some difficulties, when he tries to find the it's going to be a little bit?

40:38  
You know, it's gonna be there's gonna be moments where he's gonna go, I think that's probably gone out.

40:44  
I'm not saying it's perfect process. But he just that moment of him having some been able to make himself a cup of tea. Those are the sorts of progress points for people whose homes have been just inaccessible. And they found the process so difficult, that you really take a lot of pride in. Oh, it's such a lovely story that and so nice to be able to be part of that as well, isn't it, you know, to be, you know, instrumental in making that happen. So, as part of our podcast series, we always try and let someone have some takeaways, really some actions that might do so. So what would you say to someone listening to this podcast? Who is heard and knows, or know someone who is forward? And if you've got any words of advice for them?

41:28  
Yeah, I mean, if they are the person who's holding, then I'd say, you know, five years of working in in this sort of situation, I uniquely appreciate that they've taken a really important first brave step in acknowledging it in some way. They're clearly thinking about it clearly thinking, How do I address this, even if it's a tentative stage, because they've signed into this podcast, they're involved in, you know, researching and finding out more about what they can do with their belongings and decluttering. So I'd say well done. You know, that's a really important step to have taken to get to this point. The other thing I'd say is, you know, have you spoken to your GP?

42:16  
You know, it's a really

42:20  
big anxiety issue that's going on there for you. And so, you know, some people have got involved with their GP to deal with anxiety, does the GP really fully understand how it's happening effect on your home?

42:34  
Because that's perhaps worth having a conversation about.

42:39  
And for some, they've not approach their GP at all, they've kind of mentioned themselves, but if you feel like you are hoarding to the point where you are now, you know, it's becoming really a pronounced issue for you. And your household, it's worth having a conversation with the GP?

42:58  
I would say, Yeah, I think it's definitely going to need support and involvement from the medical profession in some way. But I think it's sometimes it's easier said than done, because I think some GPAs are definitely more understanding and others who didn't? That's fair. Yeah, it is. And I think so changing a little as it's been recognised, that that hoarding is a,

43:18  
you know, it has, it's a medical issue, hoarding disorder is a medical issue, it affects the brain so much that it's something that does need medical intervention. So it's starting to change where it's been taken as not just a sort of lifestyle choice, which I hear a lot, of course, and that's starting to change, we will recognise that this is something that's, that's very different. So, you know, obviously, you've got to trust your GP, but it's worth having that conversation with them. Sometimes I get involved in writing letters to go to them to take to their GPS explaining what the sort of the hold is that they've that that anxiety is having over them, and how their holdings affecting them. The other thing I would say is, you know, beyond the GP,

44:04  
to try and find someone to help you. in it. This might seem really frightening, because some people have not had somebody in their home to see how awful their homes become, for example, potentially because of hoarding, or because they're worried about people being judgmental or starting to move things around. But it is simply too going to be too much for you to do on your own. You're you're hoarding compulsions will fight tooth and nail to keep you stuck as you are. And change takes great energy and can feel painful. So you do need somebody alongside you.

44:41  
You know,

44:42  
it's if you're feeling like you need to make changes. Now this, finding somebody fairly soon is really important so you can stay on top of things and keep sort of safe living going on as long as possible. Try not to put it off really, but you do need a trusted person. Someone who's not

45:00  
In a sort of wrestle control from you and treat you like a naughty child.

45:05  
We've mentioned before it is difficult for close friends and family, not to become overwhelmed in the process because they care more about you than they do about the things that are around you. But that's just that takes a bit of understanding, I suppose that's what I'd say to people who are your friends and family is,

45:24  
you know, if you go into fast trying to make changes, because you're doing it for their well being, and they are hoarding, you're dismantling the very constructs that are keeping that person safe and well, psychologically. So just to just to remember that as you're going into the process, but finding someone to support is, is really important. I think that's a really important message. So the person who hoards the person who is doing the hoarding in their family or friends, or looking at the situation from two completely different perspectives, they care more for you and your well being, or you care more for your belongings. And that's where there's this sort of dilemma isn't there, and then there's always going to be this wrestling between the two, really. So it doesn't necessarily need to be a professional that you call in to help. But it's got to be someone who understands it and is willing to work with you with your, your needs, and your psychology really, isn't it? Yeah, you need to be patient. And I think, you know, being really upfront about that dilemma that you're both in that, you know, some people eating, you're tackling a room, you know, it feels like a project, you're both on it at the from the same viewpoint, but this is going to be different.

46:35  
Acknowledging like you say that you're coming at it from different avenues, it's just going to allow you to treat with humour and respect the times when you're not going to get it quite right for each other without being annoyed. So somebody says, No, I'm not opening that box. And now the person, the family member wants them to open that box, you know, that's when the tensions could occur, you know, all these things need to go, I don't want those things to go there. But knowing that they're going to come up against those those feelings is going to help, I think as well as understanding that there will be some winds that will leave you both feeling, okay. So you know, the family member or the friend, there is going to be able to make things a bit safer little small steps, and be happy to be engaged in the process. And the person who's living in that household with the with the belongings to sort through is going to be feeling okay, but you need to find those wins that are going to make you happy, there might be things on there, that you're not so attached to, for example, spaces where things can be stored better, without difficult decisions, just starting to do that process without going straight in with all the difficult decisions and a big push,

47:48  
just start, you know, really gently, and like they both acknowledge that, you know, that you might trip over each other a little bit, literally, but you might trip over each other in your different approaches. But just to know that it's okay to then, you know, ease off and come back at it another day. I think that's right. I mean, when I've worked with people who have got hoarding disorder that just tend to be something in the house that they're happy to tackle with about with it without it being too distressing. And it's very much got to be done in a phased approach. I mean, I've got clients that I've worked with for over eight years now. And I still work with them every sort of six, eight weeks. And it's probably never ever going to be a normal in inverted commas home, which other people consider to be a normal home. But their homes were very, very different place than they were eight years ago. And they're and I know, and they know that they've made colossal progress. But you know, even in the home that I'm talking about, there are some things that are still off limits, but there are a lot of things that are not. And, you know, because I know the crux of where the problem is, and that's not going to be tackled yet. So we'll still keep working on that make small steps towards that.

48:56  
Absolutely. And I think, you know, if you've worked long term with somebody, you know, there are things that they found problematic start with that they are starting to even look at an address. And I think that's, that's, you know, that's significant progress. But that's why the patient's whoever's working with you needs to have that patience to be to be mindful that you're not going to magic it all away. That's not what the person wants.

49:21  
It's actually just to make things manageable, and importantly, that they are staying in control of the process. So yeah, you know, it can be long term work.

49:33  
It's one of those things that we face, we don't necessarily get long term public funding, so you have to have people if they're working with a professional organiser need to be ready to,

49:44  
for us to relay things that they can carry on doing themselves but it's you know, small incremental steps are what are going to be required to keep them safe in their home, which is what we're looking for a safe and, and okay, and you know, off

50:00  
I'm not in a situation where their home is at risk, basically, I think it's so important to get the right person involved as Nam because he but you know, we're professionals and we deal with, with decision making all the time. And patience is obviously a big part of what we do. But even we sometimes can find it quite frustrating. If it's, you know, it's, it progresses very, very slow. And that takes a bit of getting used to for us as professionals. And so someone that's never done, done that, and he's not coming into that day after day like we are, it's going to be a learning curve, isn't it? Absolutely. And I mean,

50:35  
for the person who's hoarding, they need to acknowledge as well, that it's,

50:41  
they need to use all the tricks they've got in their repertoire for their own brain to keep thinking keep themselves going. And, and all sorts of things know making sure in the same way that if you were tackling any project, make sure you know, they eating properly, make sure you, you know, you're keeping things very time limited for yourself, and you've got this buddy with you, hopefully, that's keeping you motivated and supported on task.

51:06  
But, you know, it's realistic to say that you can expect relapse. And I think that's to help people take a deep breath. And stand yesterday is a journey. But there are some times, you know, two steps forward and one step back, your mind is not always your friend. And for those that are working with somebody who is hurting, I think that's important, that isn't going to go in one trajectory to improvement in their home, sometimes, when things are not going so well for the person, they will relapse to those to those holding habits, those coping mechanisms that have been, you know, with them for so long and are reliable friends when they're anxious. So do a little, you know, more themselves, relax and repeat. But do understand that the bad days will come where you'll slip up, and you'll end up coming back with, you know, six or seven carrier bags or you know, you're not going to be able to do sorting out that week, that month, perhaps expect those times take a deep breath and be ready to go at it again, further down the line.

52:14  
But you know, the thing that I would say, roughly so you've got if you have the right person involved,

52:21  
it will count for a lot.

52:24  
But

52:26  
the person involved needs to see what's happening for them as again,

52:31  
and, and keep control over what's happening for them. And I would say you aren't, you know, you're braver than you think, you know, but just to be gentle and kind to yourself, but keep persevering and things will will get better, they will get better. I think it's really important as well to be I mean, motivation is absolutely critical, isn't it to this process and having somebody to help motivate you. I think being part it's sort of proven, really, that being part of a community of people with the same goal as you is absolutely essential, when to be honest with you. That's why we've got our declutter hub, really, because we've got our Facebook page where there's lots of people on there talking about their decluttering goals. And not everybody on there is going to be hoarding disorder. In fact, not many of them will. But it doesn't mean to say that the processes and the thought process is still the same really. And so it's important to have that that community, we've got a private community, within our member sites equal to help as well. And I think it's just this kind of old mantra of a problem shared is a problem half really, so. So yeah, so it's we've got things in our site that hopefully can help as well, or those people for people with hoarding disorder is more pronounced, and it probably will need more intervention than just us, we're probably not going to be able to fix that problem overnight. But hopefully, there'll be certain snippets of information that people will be able to take and use as practical solutions to things. Well, Jasmine that was so fantastic and enlightened, I'm full of insight, you're so skilled at what you're doing, and making such a brilliant positive impact on your clients. And I'm sure that's come across to our listeners. I hope our listeners are enjoyed your stories and understand a little bit better now the difference between someone that's overwhelmed with clutter, and then someone who actually sort of tipped over the balance into suffering from hoarding disorder. I've loved chatting to you, as always Jasmine, and no

54:20  
more podcast, there's so much more. We've only just scratched the surface of hoarding today. And there's so much more that we can talk about. So thank you so much, Jasmine, and we'll see you next time. Where can people find out a little bit more about you? Yeah, so so you can look at my website, change your space.co.uk So change your space.co.uk and I do post up on Instagram, sometimes very unusual things that I find on Instagram for people to guess, obviously with a client's permission.

54:54  
What you won't find there is lots of, you know,

54:58  
homes that are very full

55:00  
All people are very private. But you know, it's quite interesting, I think, to get an insight in the sort of day to day life that we have down here in Devon, helping people in their homes. So yeah, but have a look in Instagram, but it's changed your space.co.uk. And there's some tips and pointers there. And a chance to chat to me some more, if you wish. Oh, thanks, Jasmine. And we'll make sure all those details of all your different social media feeds and website and so on are in the show notes as well. So that's it for today. If you've enjoyed listening, please don't forget to follow us on social media as well as Jasmine. And if you don't want to miss next week's episode, subscribe to our podcast. Thank you and see you next time.

55:39  
Thanks for listening to this week's episode of the declutter hub podcast. Check out declutter hub.com For more inspiration, don't forget to tune in next week.
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THE REALITY OF HOARDING – A GUEST BLOG BY JASMINE SLEIGH

Jasmine Sleigh from Change Your Space shares her thoughts on the reality of hoarding in this guest blog.
In my book, Being Owned: A Decade in Professional Decluttering, I wanted to sensitively reflect the world of tackling belongings when people are at crisis level. It is a set of stories to challenge the stigma and misunderstandings around people who are overwhelmed by their possessions. The crisis work we do is when there is no room in the home to sleep in beds or access the kitchen. I suspect this is what we know as hoarding. But I wanted to distinguish what we do as professional declutterers in these environments compared to that presented on our television screens.
Hidden away

3 million people are estimated to have hoarding disorder in the UK, extrapolated from American research, but only 5% of those are known to support agencies. Even less will be able to accept anyone to come in the home to assist them to tackle the issue, many too embarrassed or afraid to let someone cross the threshold of their home. So only a tiny fraction of people who are in crisis in their homes due to stockpiling items end up with any professional decluttering support. Most of my clients will just about allow me to enter their home, they would not entertain the idea of cameras.
Hoarding as a label

I deliberately steer away from the formal labels as often people are not formally diagnosed as having hoarding disorder, which has only become a recognised mental health condition in recent years. The person themselves may not want that title as it is laden with negative stereotyping associated with squalor and derision. Crucially, my clients often have a considered rationale for keeping all their items that can have a broader logic, so they may not see it as irrational stockpiling. We also work with people who may have other mental health issues or cognitive processing conditions that then make it tremendously hard to sort and make decisions on their belongings, which means they may not be hoarding as such, but the home is full and compromising their safety.
This is not eccentric behaviour

The reason I wanted to tell the real stories of the people we have worked with, is that we focus on what they have achieved and the breakthrough moments they have had with us that show them claiming back power over their belongings. Where they can let go and balance their future wellbeing is more important to us that what they cannot let go of. Each person has their own background that has shaped them. They are sometimes able to open up and link the behaviour with an early trauma, and sometimes the reasons are lost even to themselves. But they are people in complex situations trying to make sense of their lives and the hoarding is often a safety blanket for some underlying reason.
The work

The quick turn around format on television decluttering cannot match the reality of addressing hoarding which is a slow and careful process with ups and downs, revelations, and retreats. The funded support that people are offered by support agencies is often very short-term projects that are about simply clearing a throughway in the home and access to key facilities. But the real sustainable change takes time, patience, and endless perseverance. We have clients who find the work tremendously hard, and small gains are to be celebrated, even if they do not make great before and after pictures at this stage.
If you are affected by hoarding issues, or have a family member or friend struggling in this way, then there is support out there to help take steps to being more safe and well in their home. Contact the Association of Professional Declutterers and Organisers UK and search for those with hoarding specialism in your area.
Jasmine Sleigh is the owner of Change Your Space, a professional decluttering service based serving Devon and Somerset. www.changeyourspace.co.uk.
You can check out her book, Being Owned: A Decade in Professional Decluttering here
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