A photo of a man in a white shirt - Peter Walsh - smiling at the camera surrounded by clutter
Episode 280 – Peter Walsh: TV shows, neurodiversity and downsizing

For over 20 years, Peter Walsh has been working internationally helping families declutter and organise their homes and their lives. Peter believes that clutter is anything that stands in the way of people living their best lives and we could not agree more.

Peter has always managed to encourage people to declutter using the perfect balance of empathy and understanding coupled with some tough love. If you’re an American TV fan you’re likely to know Peter from Clean Sweep, Oprah and the Rachel Ray show in the States and Oprah dubbed Peter as the “Get your Whole Life Organized Guy”. He’s also a New York Times Best selling author of 7 books. Today in Part 2 of a two part podcast we’re talking about TV shows on decluttering, downsizing and his views (which incidentally I don't share) on neurodiversity.
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Transcript of this podcast episode
00:00
In today's podcast, we are delighted to welcome back Peter Walsh. Now, if you remember, we talked to Peter in Episode 270, all about the power of clutter and the holes that it has upon us. Now we're here to talk a little bit more about TV shows how he puts them together and how it differs from a real life organizing projects. We talk about the decluttering TV show that is an executive producer on we talk downsizing, and we talk neuro divergence say, so what a treat we're going to have today, let's dive straight in.

00:39
You're listening to the declutter hub podcast, bringing you tried and tested no nonsense tips and advice from the leading experts in decluttering and organizing your home. Now, here's your host, Lesley Spellman.

01:01
Hello, and welcome, listeners. I'm Lesley, we're delighted you're here to join us as part of your decluttering journey. So whether you're brand new today, or have been listening for ages, we want to say thank you so much for being here. It means so much to Ingrid. And now that you turn up every week to listen to and support us. While we talk all things decluttering and organizing. We'd love to help more people with their quest for a clutter free home. And our podcast is a fantastic way for people to be inspired to take action, we have a favor to ask. If you like what you hear, be sure to hit the follow subscribe or like button on your podcast player, share us with your friends, or share your thoughts on the podcast by leaving a review. So we're back. It's part two, and we've got the incredible Peter Walsh here talking about us. I hope that you've all listened to part one where we unpacked some of the emotions relating to clutter. And we've talked about lots of different things. So you need to tune in to that podcast to find out all about it. So we're just going to carry on this brilliant conversation, we started to talk about the role of a professional organizer, and how empathy and non judgement are the key skills involved in that. So I want to talk about your world as a professional organizer. So obviously, you come from a background of caring about people and understanding the psyche of people. So how did this all begin?

02:22
It's a great question. Look, by accident. I mean, my back, I have a very, very mixed background. I'm not sure anyone, you know, anyone woke up one morning and said, I'd like to be a professional organizer. I mean, maybe they did, I certainly did not. I mean, either. You know, I was originally a teacher, I trained initially, as a primary school teacher, I worked in drug abuse prevention, I worked in health promotion, I worked producing interpersonal skills training for corporations. And 20 years ago, I was asked to audition in the United States. And then I was doing organizational change, producing training programs for organizational change in in businesses. That's why I went to the United States from Australia, nearly 30 years ago. And about 20 years ago, I was asked to audition for a television program around organizing in the US. And I did so largely because I knew nothing would ever come of it. And here I am 20 years later. And weirdly, that program was a weird confluence of the teaching kindergarten kids. Health Promotion, risk reduction in drug abuse prevention, interpersonal skills training, you know, a love of architecture, you know, all of it, weirdly, came together in a confluence as a professional organizer. So, you know, serendipity, I guess is the is the best word to describe how it all came together. And I have a master's in educational psychology, all about

04:02
the psychology, right? So it's all of those things are about people, the emotions of people in the situations that they find themselves in, and trying to.

04:11
But to be honest, I think the best training was, you know, teaching primary school children back. You know, and I think it's just, you know, I realized this year, in the fourth season of Space Invaders, I think I was I was declutter, I think my 5000 space. Oh, wow, working on the show. So, you know, I've been doing it for a very, very long time, and it's just working with people. You know, I love working with people. I love helping people get out from under, you know, the, the crush of their stuff. You know, I think it's very liberating. And you know, it's great. I think I've learned more from the people that I've worked with, and they have for me, for sure. Privilege.

04:50
You know, the bottom line is it's a privilege to be able to go into people's homes and help them this way. And just to see the types of people the jobs that people do in your life is that I think my, my sort of, you're absolutely right that people don't wake up one day and say I want to be a professional organizer, although a lot of people seeing things now and going, that sounds like a job that I would absolutely love. The way that I came into professional organizer spent a couple of years in my early in my early 30s in the States, and that was the first time so I was in New Jersey for a couple of years. And that's the first time I think, where I saw you on TV for a start. And the first time that I knew that professional organizing was a thing, because it's in the States it was, it's been around a lot longer than it has in the UK and Australia as well. And so that's so to seed and then I came back from the States. We bought, we renovated a derelict property that was lived in by a compulsive hoarder. And so the person so the house was cleared when we bought it, but it was in real wreck and ruin really. And people in the neighborhood was so excited to see the change in the house, because obviously it had been an eyesore, people liked it, people had things to say people have talked about this, this quote, this is 1517 years ago as well. So people weren't quite as enlightened as they are today. And people used to stop me and go, and just the judgment involved in the way that they were speaking about somebody who had such a severe mental health issue bothered me. And so that's when after that, I really want to do something in that field. Exclusively work with people with hoarding behaviors, that sowed the seed of decluttering in an emotional sense, and can really dig into the emotions. I think I got the emotional side of things, right from the get go really, because I probably wouldn't, wouldn't have if I had not listened to all of those people. And it was relentless. You know, it's like, That's so mean. Because he's obviously struggling, right?

06:52
Well, you know, I think I think hoarding is the best example of people seeing only the stuff. Yeah, and judging, judging from that point of view, you know, if you just clean up the stuff, then everything will be okay. Yeah, you know, and the level of judging around that, you know, is astounding, and you see it constantly, even in family members, you know, who will take, you know, who will take someone away for a weekend and clear all the stuff out of the house and think well, that's the problem. So and you know, who fail to understand that that exacerbates the problem beyond belief? And that's actually a very cool thing to do. Oh,

07:31
yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. The most important thing about a decluttering journey is that people need to feel in control of the decisions that we're making. And as soon as you have that lack of control, that's when you start to get nervous and worried, for example, and, you know, you're the same as us, Peter, you will see people, you know, 2025 years down the line when somebody has wrestled something away from them when they didn't expect it. And they're still talking about that one item today, 20 years later. And that's the crux of why they've continued to keep stuff for so long. And so it's tough. So yeah, hoarding behaviors is a tough thing to work through, and definitely needs intervention from more than just a professional organizer. But how do you think then, so you came into it from a sort of, you know, you had the skill set, obviously required to be a professional organizer, then you learned the practical application of that you had the TV working alongside? Let's talk about the TV shows, because I think professional organizers in general, have a little bit of a love hate relationship with TV shows.

08:34
Sure. With good with good reason. Yeah, the first time I spoke, not, not long after Clean Sweep aired, I was invited to speak at the National Association, what was then the National Association of professional organizers in the United States. And I was not received very well at all. And I actually started I was given I gave the keynote talk at that conference. I think it was in San Francisco, if I remember correctly. And I think there were more than 800 people, maybe close to 1000 people. And I started my keynote by asking how many of you think I should not be here speaking and a good number of people put their hand up. And there are quite a number of people who felt I was absolutely should not be the keynote. And I understood that, because what you see on TV is not real. In some senses that, you know, I have a team behind me helping me and this was in the early like, this is 20 years ago. Audiences are way more sophisticated now and understand that, you know, how things work. It's interesting that, you know, generally one has to be I'm not known for my subtlety, but you know, a lot of TV shows are absolute bullshit in terms of the way what you see. I fortunately have enough X Experience and enough. I mean power, I guess is the word that I'm an executive producer of the TV shows that I'm now on the TV shows that I'm now on are absolutely factual. There's no faking the TV shows that I'm on there's no, there's no pretend. So they're what you see absolutely happens. And there's no, there's no stacking of the rooms, there's no faking of the emotion, there's none of that on the shows that I made, am I? Yeah, there's none of that. So, and that's, I'm very proud of that. So but there are people who help in and what you see done, like I, for example, go through, fight over 500, boxes of clutter, moving boxes in two and a half days with the with the family. And it's a massive amount of work. But that can't be done. Normally, with a client, I mean, what's done on TV is done for TV. So it's a very different, it's a very different style. And I think TV shows serve a purpose in that they present, what can be done. But a lot of TV shows you have to understand a done for TV. And I would think that I think that people are smart enough to see shows that are basically fabricated, and there are some TV shows that I think are just absurd. And I'm not going to name those. But I think that a lot of shows around hoarding that are more damaging, that should never be on television, particularly hoarding shows that are just, you know, if you were to produce shows, if you were to replace the hoarding component with someone who wasn't a hoarder, but who was believing, for example, and to replace the clutter with food, that show would never make it to air. Right. And yet, we're and yet we're prepared to watch the torture of that person with their stuff. But we would never watch that same program, if it was someone and we were playing with their food, if they had a, you know, a food related problem. And yet, it's either

12:19
watch it as a professional organizer, so I stopped watching they know people imagine that we watch them. And I'm like, as a professional, I find some TV programs, not not yours, I'm not seeing yours. And I know people love yours. And I'd love it to be in the UK that it's not and I'm and know that you're doing the right way. But you need to be an executive producer to make sure that happens for a piece of which a lot of people have not got. But I stopped watching the programmers because I found it so distressing to think about what that person was feeling like behind the scenes as all this stuff, just the very fact that there is a skip there and the stuff is 15 people and it's just like, oh, this is just so fast. But I guess people that choose to then go on to TV shows, we'll know what that represents in terms of the volume. So for some people it is, you know, you will have done it as well, you know, when we're looking at different strategies with clients is about a volume, sometimes we go down to 80% of the stuff in your home is going to leave. Are you ready for that? I mean, that's not my first line, of course. But, you know, to me, that's something that we might use further down the line. And so I guess that people understand that, because they will have seen the show people talking to them and all that kind of stuff. But yeah, sometimes it's too tricky to watch. And so I say, but we do have a love hate relationship, because equally there are people who watch shows like that, who pick up the phone to ask for professional help as well. So, you know, it shows people that that's possible, as you say, but it also you see,

13:48
the thing is with when you're when you're working on a TV show, you know, I have a team of 30 people working with me who can move stuff, you know, who can lay stuff out? Yeah, who can, you know, who can facilitate the whole process who could arrange things in like categories, so you can move through things very quickly, it's a whole different process than if you're working with them, you know, with a small team one on one. And in truth, when I haven't I have never done a show, you know, in the last four series, for example of Space Invaders, when people haven't let go of 80% of the stuff they've started with. You know, that's, that's the benchmark I usually aim for. And we've pretty much always reach that benchmark. And that has often come with, you know, a lot of tears, but that's, that's the benchmark I aim for the people coming into the process, understand that are often very reluctant. But again, you know, it's a process that I've honed down, you know, over 20 years and you know, that's that's what people expect

14:54
to be able to do that in that kind of TV format is another Yeah, which is dead. trends, normal professional organizing and professional organized can see what that represents and how those things as well. But

15:06
if I were working with an individual client, I would never, I would never expect to do that over a three day period. Now, with a person, you know, it's just it would be insanity. It's just completely unreasonable to expect to be able to do that kind of that speed. And that process within that timeframe. It's just completely impractical.

15:30
Exactly. So we're gonna go to another break, we're gonna pop back in a minute, and we're going to finish off this conversation with Peter. So we've talked a little bit about what's changed in the last 20 years and your growth through the industry. One of the things that I've sort of noticed, I mean, I've been in the business 13 years, and I think one of the things that I've really noticed is that the awareness around neuro divergence and how that affects decluttering and organizing in particular. Do you think that's a good thing that people are aware that neurodivergent conditions like ADHD, chronic, you know, chronic disorganization, things like that? Is that the first step? Do you think that's helpful to people? Have you seen a growth in that? I've definitely. When I started out, even if I thought somebody may have ADHD, I would never have broach that subject. Whereas now, it's 13 years later, I might, if I felt like it was the right thing to say, Have you ever thought about talking to somebody about whether you're neurodivergent, for example, and that might might be hindering your organizing efforts? That's definitely something that's changed for me in 13 years, and I'm sure you've seen more change. And you're 20?

16:44
Yeah, look, I think it's important to understand that. Well, there are a couple of things here. Let me answer it in two ways.

16:52
I love it. Yeah. Always thinking always thinking, Well, the

16:55
first one is that I think a lot of people will throw in the neurodivergent thing as a distraction, that people will say, you know, I, you know, I'm ADHD or I'm, you know, neurodivergent, you know, and it's kind of like, well, hang on for a second says, who, you know, and it's like this self diagnosis, that is an excuse for inaction, or an excuse for delay or an excuse for procrastination, like, people will self diagnose, based on God knows what. And, you know, I'm not as ready to accept. I'm very reluctant to accept a self diagnosis based on on, you know, a, you know, a Google search, and a quiz that they've done online. That that enables him to sidestep personal responsibility. No, you know, you're not ADHD, you just you just breathe, you're not prepared to do the work. You know, so I'm not, I'm sorry. But no, that's not the way diagnosis of neuro divergence see works. That's not the way it works.

18:04
Right. And so you think about personal responsibility? Yes.

18:08
Often? Yes. Often it is, you know, you know, who says your ad? Who says your ADHD? Well, you know, my sister's brother says, I act like he that well, no, that's not how it works.

18:22
So if people have gotten to that stage of a diagnosis, then do

18:26
you who but who has diagnose them? Like, that's, that's the first question who has diagnosed you? Right? Okay. So you don't just accept a diagnosis, who has diagnosed? And when you ask that question, that the the level of professional diagnosis drops very dramatically, trust me, it's like, Oh, well. So, you know, you're not you're not ADHD, because you tell me you are. So slow the bus down for a second Tiger, slow the bus down. So that's one, two, if you're seriously neurodivergent, then let's look at different strategies. I'm all for looking at different strategies for dealing with that. And that, you know, in the same way that, you know, if if you have, you know, if you have a bad back, then let's sit you down, rather than stand you up. For working with your stuff, you know, you have to look at strategies tailored for the individual, whether that's, you know, whether that's a, you know, a psychological issue, you know, a physiological issue or mental issue, then clearly, we have to take account of that, depending on on the issues for that specific client. So, yes, of course, I take into account there, but not based on a self diagnosis that basically is fantasy. And unfortunately, in this day and age, there are way too many fantasy diagnose. Horses? Don't just accept it because someone tells you that. So,

20:05
I mean, I suppose it's a bigger question than just in the organizing world, isn't it? Whether it's, it kind of runs a little bit deeper. And so I think that, you know, my experience of it is certainly that, you know, predominantly people in our world are women, probably middle aged women, there are, you know, certainly in the UK, you're hard pressed to get a diagnosis that are coming from nowhere, you know, it's hard to get, it's hard to get into that into the kind of mechanics of getting that. And so, but yeah, people are, there's an enlightenment, this comment, and that people, it's explaining some of their behaviors, sometimes, obviously, things are on a spectrum. There are people who are really, really struggling with it. But we've always been, even though in that 13 years that I've been working, I've always worked particularly ADHD is a strong one, I guess, in this. But we've always found individual strategies, because no two people with ADHD are going to operate in the same way. Factors that are coming in. So yes, there are things that are going to work well for ADHD people that are distracted labels, whatever, and shelving, all that kind of thing. But in general, the principles are exactly the same, whether or not you're neurodivergent, or not, in terms of the way that you organize, and things that are going to make your life that a little bit easier. So okay, so we're nearly done, Peter, before we go, pitch, I really want to talk about your latest book, which is all about downsizing, because that's something that you went through with your own family recently. And one of the things that you talked about in the book was that you are reframing downsizing from an overwhelming chore to a rejuvenating life change, which I absolutely love. Because it's something that people with clutter, it fills them with fear and dread having to try and chop their house with bedrooms into a two bedroom retirement property. So how did you explain the concept of the book a little bit and how you think you can change that mindset into something that feels rejuvenating? Yeah, it's

22:06
interesting after, after my mother passed away, you know, I have three brothers and three sisters. And basically, you know, it's one thing to talk in the third person about downsizing. And it's another thing to kind of do it personally, you know, and if you have siblings, you know, in this case was a little bit like, you know, the united nations coming together to, to downsize the family home, you know, and it was kind of bringing together 20 years of experience and downsize the family home, you know, and it really helped me to focus laser focus, the whole question of, you know, downsizing, and what it's about, and to look at my work with, with, particularly older people moving into retirement, and again, to bring together a whole lot of different threads that that the largest hurdle to downsizing, when you look at no matter where you are, whether it's, you know, in the UK, or whether it's in North America, or in Australia, that time and again, the research shows that the largest hurdle to downsizing is letting go of the stuff in our homes, you know, the this fear of dealing with the stuff in our homes, you know, you could call it clutter, you know, it doesn't matter what you call it, but the accumulated stuff of lives in our homes. And it's because all the stuff in our homes represents this life journey of ourselves and our families. And so to, to be able to take the the what I call the treasures of that journey, to be able to pull from all of that, the best of the best. And to distill from there, the items that best represent the highlights of our lives journey, and to use that as the foundation for stepping into what's next. Like you can either surround yourself with that stuff, and sit amongst that as a shrine to the pass all of that, or to pull out the treasures, and to use that as a foundation for stepping into what's next. So you can see that either either as an anchor holding you in the past, or as the foundation to remind you of what was most wonderful of your life and to use that as the basis for saying this has been the most fabulous, these are the most fabulous things that represent what's come before. Now let's use this as the foundation for stepping into the wonderful things I still have to create. There your two choices. And for me, that's what the books about this is how you can take the latter part. Find the treasures, extract them and use them for creating your new future. And that's basically the summary of the book. And this is the process for doing that. And the book is the book is all about letting, letting go of the things from the past, but holding on to the most important stuff, and using that as building blocks for the future. And, you know, I've spoken internationally about this. And again, and again, people have come back and said, well, distilled, it's basically a very simple step by step process for how to handle there. And it's really helped me to do that. Because, you know, your life's not over by hate the term retirement. You know, it's such an awful word. And we're of an age now, we're at a stage in life development where we don't read people don't retire anymore. You know, my dad retired, I will never retire. We don't retire. Retire suggests withdrawal. Yeah, you know, and we just don't retire. I'm never going to retire. You know, there's, there's now early childhood, there's adolescence, there's middle essence, that's the new term for, you know, 40s and 50s. Well, this, I now call this 60s Plus, I don't call that retirement, I now call that effervescence. That's the term I'm using for that age group. That's effervescence, because it's all new. You know, we're sparking newness, so you have to get prepared for effervescence. And that's what this books about preparing for effervescence. And, you know, it's easy to do. So choose that rather than sitting at home surrounded by all the stuff from the past, but use the best of that to propel yourself into the future.

26:47
Amazing. Well, thank you so much, Peter. It's been an absolute pleasure to have you podcast. My Ingrid would be will be devastated, of course that she is not here. Let's do this. Let's do this again. My turn next time for sure. So thank you so much. Tell everybody where they can find out a little bit more about you spoken about

27:11
my website, Peter Walsh, design feederwatch design.com Or my Facebook page, everything's there. Just please jump on board. Join my Facebook page. I regularly post there and if you're in Australia or New Zealand or French speaking Canada, Space Invaders or Manasa tois rendus. Title, but now, you see me speak see me speaking French, ma and lovely to be part of this. Thank you so much for the invitation.

27:39
Thank you.

27:45
Thanks so much for listening to the declutter hop podcast. Don't forget to subscribe to us in your podcast player so you don't miss an episode. And we'll see you next week.
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Rye Saavedra says:

25 April 2024 at 1:09 PM

In this journey of cleansing and renewal, Peter Walsh stands out as a beacon of guidance. With his unique blend of empathy, understanding, and a dash of tough love, Peter has inspired countless individuals to reclaim their spaces and, by extension, their minds. His approach reminds us that decluttering is not just about tidying up; it's a deeply emotional process that, when navigated with care, can be incredibly liberating and healing. Let's channel our inner Peter Walsh and embark on this transformative journey, embracing decluttering as a tool for enhancing our mental health and rejuvenating our lives.

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1. Ingrid Jansen says:
  
  25 April 2024 at 7:19 PM
  
  We're glad you enjoyed this podcast episode Rye.
  
  Reply
Episode 280 – Peter Walsh: TV shows, neurodiversity and downsizing

Episode 312 – 10 clutter hotspots and how to fix them

Episode 311 – How to declutter when everything in your home feels sentimental

Episode 310 – How to choose what to wear with Jennifer Mackey-Mary

Episode 309 – The evolution from chaotic to calm

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