A photograph of a smiling Leslie Josel the podcast guest talking about decluttering and ADHD
Episode 9 – Guest Expert Leslie Josel Discusses Her Work with ADHD and Its Symptoms

This podcast is an interview with Leslie Josel, owner of Order Out of Chaos. Leslie is a professional organiser living in New York and she is a specialist in working virtually with clients struggling with ADHD and chronic disorganisation. Today, we discuss Leslie's work with decluttering and ADHD symptoms.
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Transcript of this podcast episode
Intro  0:07  
Welcome to today's episode of The Declutter Hub Podcast, your channel for super easy, no nonsense advice on how to declutter and organise your home. Please welcome your host professional organisers, Ingrid Jansen and Lesley Spellman.

Ingrid  0:27  
Hello, and welcome listeners to Episode Nine of the Declutter Hub Podcast. I'm your host Ingrid. If you have clutter and want to sort it out, this is the show for you. In today's episode, we're talking to Leslie Josel, owner of order out of chaos working in and around New York. She's a professional organiser specialising in ADHD, and today we are chatting to her about getting organised when you have ADHD. Leslie launched her professional organising business order out of chaos in 2004. Originally, she focused on working with the chronically disorganised ADHD students with learning challenges and hoarding behaviours. She then added coaching services and educational products for students and parents. Leslie is the creator of the award winning Academic Planner, a tool for time management, and she writes articles for attitude magazine, and family circle magazine. She's an accomplished speaker, both nationally and internationally. She's an author and co author of two books. And most recently, she was awarded the naipo National Association of productivity and organising professionals 2018 award. I've had the pleasure to hear Lesley speak at the UK Association's conference last March, and I'm lucky enough to be her friend. Oh, thank you so much for being Leslie.

Leslie Josel  1:50  
Okay, not the way you want to start a podcast with crying. Unbelievably, I hope I live up to that. Thank you. I'm so so so excited to be here.

Ingrid  2:00  
We are delighted to have you. And we can't wait to to get a recording of this podcast started. And I'm going to ask you loads of questions. All right, fire away, honey. All right. Leslie, my first question is, I would like to know a little bit about your background and how you became a professional organiser.

Leslie Josel  2:20  
Okay, I'm gonna give you the Reader's Digest version, because I don't want you could be here all day. So my, my son Eli is 20. And when he was five, so we're going back about 15 years ago, he was diagnosed with ADHD, executive dysfunction, and a whole host of learning, you know, differences. He's there he was, that's much now your quintessential gifted student with learning differences. And back then, this is super important. There weren't podcasts like yours. There weren't conferences, there wasn't a tonne of information. So I really had to rely a lot on my instinct and my gut to figure out ways to untangle his worlds both at home and at school. And to make a very long story very short, but I did back then was considered pretty revolutionary. I took doors off closets, I took dressers out of rooms and lined them with clear plastic bins, I coded things in my home blue, because that content, so maybe not so much now, but back then people weren't really doing those types of, of hacks you might call them. Anyway, people saw what I was doing, a friends of friends of friends of friends, and all of a sudden, I started getting phone calls going, I saw what you did in Lisa's house, because I did something for a very good friend of mine. Can you come and do it for me? And the calls kept coming. And I remember I turned to my husband and I said but and I was working at the time. And I said but I don't do this for a living and ever the entrepreneurial spirit My husband has he went well, I think you do now. And that is literally the true story of how order out of chaos was born. And at the time. I was a solo entrepreneur, you know, home to home house to have ADHD family, ADHD family. That was really what I focused on. I didn't do the, you know, garage basement. That wasn't my thing. It was really ADHD, family, creating homes that would work systems and supports and scaffolding and now 15 years later, I'm an academic life coach for teens and college students with ADHD and learning disabilities. And we are actually a virtual company. Everything we do is virtual we do no longer. We do coaching but again, virtual we do nothing in homes anymore. More global audience.

Ingrid  4:29  
So you weren't an organiser who specialises in ADHD. Actually, you you were confronted with ADHD and your son and kind of then became a professional organiser and ADHD.

Leslie Josel  4:41  
Is that amazing? I always say I'm an accidental entrepreneur. I did not know how much to charge what to cost. I just knew that the work I was doing was transformational. That for my own home and for homes that I walked into. I really had a knack. I think I can say that. At for understanding how to think out of the box to create systems and structures that worked not only for the student, but also for the family. So I was really working with individuals and we still do that that will always be our mission is to work with families who are really suffering and really don't know what to do next, and how to create ways to untangle. I love saying untangle. I think that is just a great visual and untangle there the world. And we do both at home and at school. So we only, we don't only coach students, we also spend a great deal of time working with parents, helping them on a multitude of things, let's say their child was first just recently diagnosed are navigating the school system or ways to set up structures and systems. And I think to create sanity and peace and systems in a household.

Ingrid  5:48  
Okay, so just for clarity, can you tell us the exact definition of what ADHD means?

Leslie Josel  5:56  
Well, you know what, I'm gonna say this, that I don't know if there's an exact everyone has a different definition these days of what ADHD is. So I don't know if I could give you an exact. But here's what we do know about ADHD, we know that the main symptoms were the main things we say, with Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder, is impulsivity, inattention and hyperactivity. But what we're actually seeing more and more of these days is that it's really not a I want to say this correctly, it's not an interest in attention. Because those that have ADHD actually can attend, they can focus, it's actually what they call a self regulation. It's those that are almost there are those that are so hyper focus that we can't bring them down to where they need to be. And there are those that can activate. And we need to bring them up to where they need to be. So actually, what we're seeing more and more of is they're calling ADHD, more about self regulation. It's that impulsivity, and inattention and bringing it to balance. So that's, I think, a great way to, to look at it. Okay.

Ingrid  7:08  
And have you got any idea? I mean, I know you might not know these figures, but I was wondering this when we were talking. How many people have ADHD? Do we know that actually, is there any?

Leslie Josel  7:18  
Well, I do know for you, I actually know you're based in the United Kingdom? Oh, I actually know that answer. Isn't that interesting? Actually, this was about a year ago, the stats and they came off of the ad a UK and I wrote it down. So I'm going to read it, it's three to 7%, which is really, I think, an amazing number considering how many people live in the UK. But here's the interesting statistic is 60. That's that's for children. But 65% of that three to 7% will continue with their ADHD symptoms through adulthood. Oh, wow. So it is prevalent, very, very prevalent. And I would guess that in the United States, there'd be even more just by because of the number, you know, the population, you bring in a bigger population, you're going to bring in a bigger percentage. But for me, it's not so much how many students have it, it's the continuation into adulthood with those symptoms. So it is paramount that we really get to our, and I call them students, that's just my language, we get to those students early on to really give them the support and scaffolding that they need. So that when they do enter into adult adulthood, they've kind of learned what it is that, you know, they're self aware, and they're, you know, they really understand what works best for them.

Ingrid  8:40  
Yeah, and I think also, the three to 7% is to people that we know of, but of course, there's a lot of people who aren't even diagnosed yet, right?

Leslie Josel  8:48  
Yes. And that's and so, you know, it's interesting, because you mentioned also the definition. And one thing I should have mentioned is that, and I think this is really, really important for those that are listening. So because if anyone takes anything away from this podcast, this is what I want you to hear me say, if you have attention deficit disorder, ADHD, ADHD, you automatically have executive dysfunction. So but you can have executive dysfunction, and not have ADHD. And particularly for, for our younger, you know, our younger population executive function. And some people even say, ADHD is an executive dysfunction disorder. executive function is what controls our actions. It's what controls our organising our time management, our effort, our focus, even our mood regulation, or working memory. So even though somebody might not be diagnosed with ADHD, the numbers to me don't represent because you can have executive dysfunction and not have ADHD and still present with symptoms. So excellent question and a really important point distinction to make.

Ingrid  9:57  
Thank you. So um, you are a chronic disorganised and hoarding specialists. Yes. Now have you found like addicts? I think it's kind of an extension to this question. Have you found people who have ADHD are typically chronically disorganised or is that a generalisation? You can't make I think

Leslie Josel  10:16  
it's a generalisation. So as I'm so in the interest of to disclosure, you asked fabulous questions and I thought that was one of the best questions I've ever been asked by anyone but have to say that because people assume just because you have chronic disorganisation, that or ADHD excuse me that you're automatically disorganised so number one I look at all disorganisation not just about your stuff and space but also in time. So that's something that's also like there are a lot so I have come across. I've been doing this for 15 years, where I've met a lot of people with executive dysfunction and ADHD, who are actually organised they're organising their stuff, my son would be one of them. I always say this My son My son came out of the womb organised Believe it or not, and his stuff, but time management he was not organised in his time. So yes, you can absolutely have ADHD or EF which is easier to say EF and actually have organising skills because for some organisation helps to calm the mind. So I don't think one always goes hand in hand. I don't know when it comes to those that Hoard. I do think organisation is a tremendous problem but I don't think but I think it stems from other things I think it stems from maybe not being know how to category categorise things not how to you know how to relate your your items to each other. I also think a lot of it is that everything has great importance. So if you don't have it, so if not everything has the same importance nothing has the same have nothing has it so that everything is in your eyeline, you know, because there isn't the distinction of I can put that away because it's not as important in the end keep out what is. So what's hoarding? I've never seen anyone be a super organised, you know, order. Right. But ADHD I have that is

Ingrid  12:11  
really interesting, because I Gosh, and I've been an organiser for eight years, I always I'm so glad we're actually talking about this because I always assumed there you go assumed that if you have ADHD, you are chronically disorganised, but in your audience, it can be not the stuff, or the space, or time frame or all three of them. One of them. So

Leslie Josel  12:38  
here's here's the way to understand it, which I think might really help your your listeners. So if you have eighth member, you have ADHD, you automatically have executive dysfunction. Now, one of those executive dysfunctions is organisation. But there's time management, there's working memory, there's effort, there's focus, you do not necessarily have to have all of them. There are people that have executive dysfunction, who might be super organised, but have absolutely no time management, or they're super disorganised, but their working memory is, is is working. So I have actually worked with individuals on particularly students, it's really amazing to me, organisation for their stuff, and space is not their issue. It's time and effort and working memory that is so no. Interesting, right?

Ingrid  13:31  
Yeah, very, very, very interesting. And of course, I've heard you speak you speak about this as well. So I already feel that I've got quite a basic knowledge of this. But I think just to have it so clearly explained, it makes it really, really much more comprehensible, I think for people. So if somebody has, how can people who have ADHD recognise they might need help? Or maybe, I think also, if people don't have ADHD or not diagnosed as having ADHD, how, what kind of things you they look for? Yeah. What kind of examples can you give me of the challenges? So what do you see, you know, you already mentioned time and space, but what in a typical, what if somebody said, Hold on, one of our listeners is at home and thinks, Okay, I've got ADHD or Wow, I'm hearing Leslie talk, and I'm thinking I might have ADHD. So what are the things that you see over and over

Leslie Josel  14:35  
again? Okay, so I think that, you know, we can go granular and we can go broad, I want to go broad first, I really think that, you know, sometimes we miss, you know, we're funny and we misdiagnosed and we say, Oh, I lost my keys today. Oh my god, I have ADHD, okay, losing your keys, on occasion does not mean you have ADHD. I think you know what I mean? It's kind of like the person that says I have boxes from my childhood in the in the basement. I must be a hoarder. That's not what that's not what hoarding is. But so on a granular level, I'm sorry, on a on a big level on a wide scope. You have to see how these things that I just mentioned to is, are they affecting your quality of life? Is it so? Do we do we all misplace our keys every now and then? Yes, but are you constantly like losing your keys or not on time and not have that relationship, let's say to time where you are getting out the door half an hour, 45 minutes to an hour late showing up at work. Your boss is very much, you know, upset with you and you're at the brink of losing your job. Is your disorganisation really affecting and impacting your relationship with the people you live with in the house? I'm not talking about a little clutter here and there. But is it such a, you know, such a disaster in your home that it's really created so much, you know, strife between you and the people that live there. So when we talk about chronic disorganisation to know if we really truly have that we talk about how is it affecting us? How is it truly affecting? Can we get out the door in the morning? Can we get to work on time? Can we get our kids out the door in the morning? Are you having trouble on a daily basis? Completing your tasks? Now, I'm not saying you know, to do you, can you understand a true understanding between time and task? You have a relationship with time. That's a big one. Because I think organisation is much easier because we see it I think time is very hard to like, feel time and see time. So can you see your time? Do you understand how long things take? I always want people to ask questions on the bigger end, and then on the granular because I think that's how you start to say you know what, I think I might need help. That's that's how I do it.

Ingrid  16:56  
And so with your son, for example, how did you realise? I mean, you said he got diagnosed? Yes. So what kinds of things happens that

Leslie Josel  17:05  
you thought? Okay, so he was younger? You remember, I'm just what I just gave you were more for adults? Yes. So when you know, for a young student, is, you know, just does your child hear you that not only hear, can your child process what you're saying? Can Can your child sit still even can they focus in school? Are they distracted? Easily? Do they hype and and people will say oh, Mike doesn't have ADHD because he can sit in front of a video game. That doesn't mean he doesn't have ADHD. And just because your child is super smart, okay, your academic ability has nothing to do with whether you haven't yet for ADHD. So you want to look at those types of things like, you know, kangaroo, kangaroo child to even to the granular level, can they remember the three or four instructions that you might have given them? I hear that so much with my with my parents who say, I gave my child a four step instruction, and you only remember the first thing you know, Can Can they sit and focus you distraction is a big one. hyperactivity is a big one. I think as parents, you really, you start to hone in and like for my son, I just knew I knew, I knew that sitting still was very difficult. Being able to focus was super, super difficult. The focusing, being able to process what I was saying. was really hard to Yeah, yeah.

Ingrid  18:30  
So you gave me some examples for when your son was young? Right? also gave me some examples for an adult, right. But you also specialised in students, so you can see is that teens? And yes, teams? What kind of things do you see there then?

Leslie Josel  18:45  
Okay, so what I see, the biggest thing I see with students would be time management for that. It's a very again, interesting, you know, when a team comes to me, again, it's not about organism. This is what it's not about organisation of stuff and space there, they're pretty much have figured that out. It's about their time, it's about seeing time, it's about future awareness. It is about understanding that something that is due a week from now, even a month from now needs to be in their horizon, and might even have to be dealt with now. That is by far the number one, number two, number three. And Number four thing I see with students, it's view or what I call future awareness is not just looking and saying, Oh, this is what I have to do today. I did everything today I'm done. It's being able to look to the future and say, Okay, I need to get prepared now for what's coming next. Okay, it's that and procrastination. Those are my two biggest, biggest things that when I when I am with a student, and then also study skills, but that's a whole other conversation. And that's, that's a whole other thing is really understanding how to study.

Ingrid  19:57  
Yes. And it's interesting that you say because I have a, you know, a 12 year old son, who's now in secondary school. And I'm also trying to teach him to go, Okay, what was in your planner for today for homework for tomorrow? And he's like, oh, okay, I'm done. I can play video games, or I can go do a little while on the computer or to watch that video. And I'm like, okay, that's nice, Max. But what else? Is there in your diary? Is there any something you can do now? So I'm trying to teach him right? Is there anything and he started to grasp the idea that if a project is bigger, you have to do a little bit now and a little bit at the end of the week and a little bit,

Leslie Josel  20:36  
you have to break it down into manageable chunks? Yes. But what's even more important is that, um, this is, you know, this is my, you know, this is my mantra, this is what people hear me say all the time. And this doesn't matter if you're a student, or even an adult, if you cannot see your time, you cannot learn to manage it. So if you don't know what else you have going on, you need to be able to see the whole picture. So if you have, let's say, if you are a student, and it's Monday night, and you don't have a test till Friday, you might say, no problem, I don't need to deal with this. Now, it's in the future, I'll do with them. But if you don't see that Thursday evening, you don't get home till nine o'clock at night from let's say, you know, theatre practice or soccer, whatever it is recite. And you're not going to study then that work for that exam needs to happen now. So not only do you need to see what you have, like your assignment or appointments, you also need to see when you have the time to do it. So that is my big thing. It's it's you have to be able to see your time in order to learn how to manage it, whether you're an adult or a student,

Ingrid  21:51  
is because I know, I'm going to skip my other question that I keep a question. But I want to know, we're talking about time. I know that besides helping your clients, decluttering writing articles and coaching students, you also created the Academic Planner. Yes, the tool for time management. So now we're talking about time all the time. Can you tell me a bit more about this planner, because it's a big, it's,

Leslie Josel  22:13  
I mean, it's a big deal. I love how you said good time to talk about time. And it's exactly what you just is exactly what we just talked about. Again, I always say and I think we're all like this, we're all accidental entrepreneurs, in the sense of if we don't see something we need, we just created ourselves. It's just kind of how we are. And so very similar I was same exact thing I was working with students, I've been trying to make the story short to working with students. And my thing, again, is the time management piece, that's again, what you have to remember is time management is a life skill. It's not a school skill, it is a school, it is a skill that we all need, whether we are 18, or 80. And I could not find anything on the market. And I like paper planners, at least to be able to, even if you're using a computer to see what you have, I still want you to put it into paper. So you can see everything as a whole, I couldn't find. And I started creating my own I was buying things and cutting and pasting. And I, you know, eventually people saw it, and I gave them to my clients. And then my parents and my clients do have more of them and more of them in it. I don't need to tell you that story. But the point of it was that what I put on that planner was the piece that I just described, which is when you have the time, say this to parents all the time. It's not about asking your student what they have to do. It's about asking them when they have the time to do it. Then you know, they have future awareness, then, you know, they understand what their time management, you know that that time management piece is happening, because most students will just look linearly they'll say, Okay, it's Monday, I got to Tuesday, but I need you to look further down the road than that. And to do that you need to see when you have time you need to see when you have dance class or sports or grandma's coming for dinner or do you know what I'm saying? You need to be have that piece so our planners marry what you have to do and when you have time by putting in that piece natural blocks of time appear so a student can naturally see when time when they have time for something.

Ingrid  24:28  
Yeah, yeah, it's really amazing because I looked at I looked at your planners online, and I know they are developed for the American market obviously, because you have a weekly schedule, don't you? And here in the UK, my son had a two weekly schedule. So I thought oh, I mean after the planner is great. But of course we have a two weekly schedule so you can't put the his tasks whose school in on the left.

Leslie Josel  24:54  
But having said that, I have some UK students so we do we have people who Do we have people? Well, Canada is our second largest market after the US. But Australia, New Zealand, UK any right now any English speaking country because people have asked us to to take them and what's the word I'm looking for? translate them, but we're not going to do that.

Ingrid  25:17  
Yeah, I think though I think you're right, though, because a lot of the afternoon, the school hours are still the same. But afternoons are every week. So it could actually yeah, you're right. It could of course, it could work. Of

Leslie Josel  25:31  
course, we have students in university over in the UK who use them? Absolutely. So. So yes. And listen, we hit on something because they have? Well, one of the things we're seeing is more and more people are going back to paper planners, which is a very interesting thing, because they find them less distracting and easier to use than opening an app. And students say that when they go into their phones to try to write something down, they get very distracted. So we are seeing that, but um, it's uh, it goes back to this whole thing that our biggest thing is teaching people time. And seeing time is not easy, because you can't you can't hold it. But what I what my mission was, was to try to make time very visual.

Ingrid  26:14  
Yeah, it's interesting, because I love the thing about time you what you're saying it's not visual, because I do ask my clients sometimes. I talked to them about when they did jobs in the day, you know, and they said, Okay, you need to know how often you change your beds, for example. And they're like, Well, I don't I only do it once every two or three weeks, because it takes me forever. And I'm like, Well, how long does it take you?

Leslie Josel  26:39  
Right? How long is forever? Yes, it's forever? Yes.

Ingrid  26:43  
And that's all I say, why don't you in the morning, alert your dishwasher? I don't have time. And I'm like, but it takes about five to seven minutes to unload the dishwasher. And they're like, No, it takes me much longer. I said, Well, why don't you time yourself and yourself. We do that. And then you can see how long it takes? Because then you realise that some things take much shorter than you think. While other things have a bit longer than you think.

Leslie Josel  27:07  
Yes, right? Well, my joke is when I work with students, I give them a list of different activities in their life, not school, meaning not how long it takes you to but possibly, if you're in charge of let's say emptying a dishwasher, taking a shower, walking your dog making a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. Sorry, here in the States, that's a big thing. So like all just all different things, but that are not school related, like meaning not like or not like how long does it take you to write a paragraph? Yeah, I want them to be more like, cognitive is cognizant of their time and just everyday tasks. Everyone Answers 20 minutes, everything for 20 minutes, which shows me exactly to your point that they don't, they're not Time Aware. And the first step is figuring is knowing how long something takes you to do. Yeah, that's that's that is like if I was like putting together a list of like steps to become more time management, savvy. The first thing is understanding to your point exactly how long something takes. Even, you know, even your people at home, it's a great exercise, like pick the 10 things that you do on a daily basis, like making your bed emptying a dishwasher, possibly walking your dog. Any of those things and and write down what you think how long it takes how long you think it takes you to do. And then time yourself. It's it's it's it's very, very eye opening at the end of the month. And it's a little game like two if you think about it. So I would I would that challenge in a bad way. But give that exercise to all of your listeners to do Pignon. How long? How long you think? And how long it actually does.

Ingrid  28:52  
I think that's interesting, because I think that's why people who are dis organised, run late because they want to cram a task into something which can't be crammed in anymore, because it takes longer than they think it will take

Leslie Josel  29:07  
100% Yeah. So there's an exercise action called time mapping. And I do this a lot too, with with students. But again, this, these exercises can easily be done if you're an adult at home. So perfect example is I had a parent call me and say I need to help my daughter with time management. You know, she just doesn't have enough time to get her work done. So I said, Alright, let me let me let me see what's going on. And here was a student, I'm going to make the story short, that had to go play. She played tennis every day and had to be at the, you know, at the tennis place at five o'clock and she got out of school every day at 245. So I asked her how many hours do you think or how much time do you think you have to do your homework prior to getting to tennis? And her answer was two hours. I'm like really? Okay, let's break it down. And we time Matt. By the time she got out of school by the time she At home, by the time she ate a snack, or the time she walked the dog, by the time she changed her clothes, by the time they drove the 20 minutes, she basically only had at home. 40 minutes. Yeah. So there's that time awareness of thinking, I have two hours to get homework done, I really only have 40 No wonder why she wasn't getting anything done. We made some changes, we left her at school, sometimes we got rid of the having her having to walk the dog, so she would have more time. But during that time mapping really created the awareness for both the parent and the student.

Ingrid  30:33  
Yeah. Little sites that that I want to ask, you know, can you give me advice about clocks, because I know you have a very big thing about clocks. And I want to, I want our listeners to know that as well. What's your thing about cool

Leslie Josel  30:48  
thing about clocks. And it's so funny, because I'm in my office, and I have my big clock right on to my right, which I'm looking at. So I try to find things that work for everybody and that are not expensive. So I'm a big, you've heard me say this, that every home, every home that you spend, and every room in the home that you spend time in has to have what I call an analogue clock. And for those that might not remember what I just had, I just spoke a week ago, when I asked parents in the room who knows what an analogue is, I have the room didn't is the clock that has the, you know, the hand that goes around, it cannot be digital, it must be that old fashioned clock, you need to hang one of those in every room of your house. And I would say particularly the rooms at your children spend time in their bedrooms, the bathroom, even kitchen, because again, we they need to be able to see time move. It's where we start teaching time management time. Time is three dimensional. It has a beginning it has an end, it has a middle it has a future it has a past. So unless you know I always do this, I always show a digital and I say you can only see one time on a digital. And that's the present with an analogue, you get this really nice organic feel of time, you can see 15 minutes go by, you can see 15 minutes ahead. So analogue clocks, not expensive and a great way to start training the brain on time management.

Ingrid  32:11  
Yeah, yeah. Do you think it takes longer for people with ADHD to get organised or to grasp the time space? Yes, stuff? Yeah,

Leslie Josel  32:27  
I do, but for a different reason than you probably think. Okay, I think that I think it's not set, it's not so much that it takes them time to actually organise. I think it's, I think for those with ADHD or executive dysfunction, I think it's harder for for them to find systems that work for them. Because for so long they have been granted I am. I'm not trying to group everybody. Obviously, nothing's an absolute I need to say that, uh, you know, please don't, don't yell and say, that's not true for me. I know that. We all know that. But. But I think for so long that what happens is we all go, even those with ADHD, if we try what's conventional, we try what's typical. All right, I'll try a filing system, or oh, I'll try the basket on the kitchen table. They try the more conventional, the more typical, and those might not work. For those of us that have ADHD, we have challenges. So I think it takes longer to find those systems, those scaffolds and those structures that really work for us. And they're sometimes they're still quirky, and out of the box, and completely different one, someone who might not have that. But I think once you find what works for you, then we're good to go. So it's not, it's not so much that I think it's really finding the system that takes the time and that's where the professional organiser comes in. And my bulk, they're the one who's trained to really listen to you hear what you're saying, hear what you're not saying, ask the right questions, and really present you with some things that you might not have thought of yourself. You know, I always say this about organisers, if they're trained correctly. And our know our group is, they're not going to come in with typical answers. They're going to come them come in with things that are so like, out of the box and fit just customised just for you. That that's, I think, where we do our best work.

Ingrid  34:30  
Yeah, I think it's true, because as a professional organiser, you don't do the same thing with every different clients. Exactly. Because you need you need to figure out what works for them, right? Because when a client says to me, Ingrid, what's where should I put it? And I'm like, I can give you lots of different options, but where will you go and look for it?

Leslie Josel  34:52  
Right? Right, exactly. So let's ask you some really good questions. And some of them are fun like I asked, Are you a revealer Are or a concealer? Meaning? Do you need to have everything out? Or do you like that? You know, you know, are you a Pilar? Are you a filer? And they're funny. They're great questions. They're funny. Who else in the home has to have access? Do you look down? Or do you look up? I have a client from years ago that everything hangs on the wall. Because that's her eyeline, she doesn't look down. She only wanted things on her wall. So everything is hum. Which is a little quirky and different. But for her works, do not I'm saying I so my point is like we are schooled and trained to come in there and work with you to figure out what is going to be just for you. And I think once we find that system, yes, things need tweaking. And, you know, you might get bored of a system where I don't know board is the right word. But we also have to remember as life goes on, things happen. So we constantly have to be moving along with that. But I think what you just said is key is it's it's about creating the system that works. Once we do that, I think people can stay organised.

Ingrid  36:06  
Now, exactly. And you mentioned of course, professional organisers being able to help. But of course, our declutter hub community is all about motivating people to get started on their declutter journey. So I would love some of your advice, or what our listeners with ADHD can do themselves at home, if they want to get started. And they're at the beginning of this podcast, you already mentioned a few things you did at home. So I want to do a limit. Okay. We'll delve a little deeper into those things. What can somebody who has ADHD realises that besides an analogue clock and every what other examples? Can you give me? What can they do themselves?

Leslie Josel  36:51  
Well, a couple of things. I mean, I'm gonna give you little different little things. My one of the things and I think I literally just said it, if you want to get started on your own journey of coming up with systems that work for you, I want you to ask yourself some of the questions that I just even posed, like, Are you a filer? Or Pilar, do you need? Do you need to have things out? Do you not out in a disorganised way? But do you need to see it because for some of us with ADHD, what we what we don't see doesn't exist. So that's a big one, I find that to be a very big one. And maybe the way for that is things are clearer. I think you need to look at your home and ask this question, too. This is a big one does everything in your house have a home, everything needs to have at home. And so that should help you zero in on maybe the hotspots that that don't. Again, with time management, I'm all about the clock, here's the one of my favourite tips for getting you started on on actually decluttering I find some times with like an organising project for an individual trying it at home, they get overwhelmed by the sheer like, like enormity of what they might have to do. So here's two tips, I like to separate out the setup from the task. So to make it easier for you at home, I want you when you're starting, let's say you just want to de clutter your closet, or you're just going to declutter the pantry, but we'll just use that, I want you to just focus on getting yourself set up for one day that that's all you're going to do. So possibly that could mean getting all your supplies together, let's say you need bins for donate or the bin for the garbage, you know, because there might be things that are spoiled, and we want to get rid of them. That's what I'm saying here, things like that. My point is when you do that, when you when when you do that, the beauty of it is you're only focusing on the setup, which makes getting started easier, you're not as overwhelmed. And now as you walk by the next day, you see the visual of this project needs to get started. And you have everything around you to get started. I see so many times when someone wants to get started on an organising project on their own. And they're like, oh, but but I don't have my labels or I don't have the bin or Oh, I forgot the port. So all I want you to do at home is think about what you need to get started not meaning what you need to set up not get started. That's the first thing separate and that also helps with the procrastination separate out the setup from the task. Okay, that that to me is huge. And then another one that we use that I used to use all the time is if you were going into let's say your dining room and it's filled with like stuff and papers and and you are just spinning in circles and try covering everything with black tablecloths because what happens is a lot of us open up open up a door to a room and we see oh, I should be working on that. You know the dresser and the top of the dresser oh but but look at the pile on the floor but oh no look at that. That chair over there and we spin into Our calls and we walk back out and we pour ourselves some wine. At least I do

Ingrid  40:05  
here in England is probably tea.

Leslie Josel  40:08  
Here in New York, baby, it's fine. So what we do is we have our clients cover everything. And I have to tell you, my clients say to me, this has helped them more than anything else. They cover things with a black tablecloth, everything in the room, other than what they're going to work on. Okay, because what we don't see doesn't exist. So if you can cover thing doesn't have to be black, it could be green, it could I'm just saying dark dark tablecloth opaque. So now all I want you to do is focus on what you say, only on that small thing. So what or the other thing you can do others is take it out of the room, that I find is very helpful, too. So if you are working on your pantry, and it is an utter mess and declutter and you haven't looked at it in years, but your kitchen tables pretty empty. Take it into another room where you're not visually distracted by all the other clutter. Okay,

Ingrid  41:04  
awesome. Nice. Also, I think was something stuck with me as well that I thought listeners might find very interesting. You set taking doors of cut Oh,

Leslie Josel  41:16  
so when I I still do this, I still even on virtually will say to a parent, um, again, I go back to that whole thing that what you what you don't, what you don't see doesn't exist. Yeah, though, if you're even an adult, and you can't and your closet is too difficult for you to manage. What I like to do immediately is I take the door off the closet, and for some who don't want to see the whole thing. I just had them hang like, you know, just gauzy curtains or plain white curtains on either side. So you can see you can do that. Because again, the I always say you have to look at your home as barrier to entries. What are you not seeing is this. And a closet door is a barrier to entry. So if it's too hard for you, and you're not putting things away could possibly be because you're it's too difficult for you to to open the door and see what's behind it. So get rid of a closet door. If you have a young child get rid of the dresser and put clear bins around the room with a little sign on top of it. What goes in the bed. Because the other thing I didn't say this, particularly for younger children, if it takes them more than a few steps to do, they're not going to do it. So they have to open a heavy dresser drawer and find a shirt or have the reverse fold it and put it back. How easy is it been with the genres in it that I can just in the morning? Take my pyjamas off as a kid. Just throw it in the bin. That's it. So organised enough.

Ingrid  42:47  
Yeah, yeah. I think it's the same with laundry baskets. If my clients say, oh my gosh, laundry isn't a nightmare. And I'm like, well, where's the laundry basket? Yeah, well, it's in the other room, right? Oh, wonder clothes don't end up in your laundry basket. Because they have to walk with stuff.

Leslie Josel  43:02  
Right? And he steps and so you're, it's too many steps and it's not there. So I love clear bins on a wall sometimes. And now your child will grow up. People ask me this all the time. I'm like my guess your child will, you know, graduate back to dressers and graduate but if you have a very young child, and it's very difficult, doing something like that can really help foster their independence and just foster systems. So I love that. I love that tip as well. Thank you.

Ingrid  43:30  
Fantastic, fantastic. What do you think listeners? Fantastic advice right? Now Leslie, if our listeners would like to know a lot more about you, your planners, maybe find out more about the Add magazine that you are applying to for? Where can they find out more about you?

Leslie Josel  43:48  
Okay, so I'm going to make this easy. The name of our company is order out of chaos. And if they just go to order, oh chaos.com. So everything we do we have other websites. Can you start there, you can find about our webinars or workshops, you can find our products, you can find the magazines you talked about even our you can get to our social media sites from there. So just go to order Oh ks.com. And you're good to go.

Ingrid  44:19  
We will put this in the show notes listener. So don't worry if you didn't have a pen. If you're driving around somewhere. You're listening to this in the car, don't worry. We'll put it in the show notes. We'll put the link to the website there. If you'd like to know more about time management ad ADHD, etc. Executive functions, maybe listen to a webinar that Leslie sometimes does. You can even register for that. She's got lots of lots of good stuff on our website. So anything else you would like to add or have we covered? Oh my God, my head

Leslie Josel  44:51  
is spinning. I don't want to over I don't want to over I don't want to overwhelm everyone I do One thing I want to say when it comes to parents who might be looking at their, that their their children, you know, I give parents parents don't give themselves enough credit you will not. You will know if if your child is struggling, listen to them. Listen to what they're saying, listen to what they're not saying. Ask them questions, call the school, find out what the teachers are saying. Just gather you know, do your due diligence, gather information. And take it from there. It's okay.

Ingrid  45:28  
All right. Well, thank you so much, Leslie. And that's it for this episode. We hope you've all enjoyed listening and are inspired to take action. Thank you, Leslie, for being our guest. I've loved talking to you. And finding out more about organisation and time management when you've got ADHD listeners. I hope you've learned a lot today as well unless these examples will be helpful for you, and you can implement them in your own home. Thanks for taking the time to listen to us today. If you'd like to get more tips and advice, please follow us on social media. And if you don't want to miss next episode, subscribe to the declutter podcast. See you next time. Thank you.

Outro  46:10  
Thanks for listening to this week's episode of The declutter hub podcast. Check out declutter hub.com For more inspiration. Don't forget to tune in next week.
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