A photograph of a smiling Alison Lush, guest expert on chronic disorganisation
Episode 86 – What is chronic disorganisation with guest expert Alison Lush?

What is chronic disorganisation and how do I know whether I am living with it? Our guest, Alison Lush, is a Professional Organiser specialising in working with clients with Chronic Disorganisation.
If we are struggling with clutter and disorganisation, it can be tough to understand why. Alison Lush explains some of the signs that someone may be living with Chronic Disorganisation and why it can be hard to navigate your way through.
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Transcript of this podcast episode
Intro  0:07  
Welcome to today's episode of The declutter hub podcast, your channel for super easy, no nonsense advice on how to declutter and organise your home. Please welcome your host professional organisers, Ingrid Jansen and Lesley Spellman.

Ingrid  0:31  
Hello, and welcome listeners to Episode 86 of the declutter hub Podcast. I'm Ingrid. In today's episode, I'm talking to Alison lush, a certified professional organiser from Montreal, Canada about chronic disorganisation. Alison became a professional organiser in 2010. And as she studied, Ellison came to realise that she herself was affected by chronic disorganisation. Allison is currently the president of ICD, and she's an accomplished and respected international speaker. She has also appeared numerous times on television. Alison loves working with clients affected by chronic disorganisation. So welcome, Ellison. I'm so happy you're here.

Alison  1:20  
Well, I'm absolutely thrilled to be here. Thank you so much Ingrid, for the generous invitation. It's an honour to speak with you and your audience.

Ingrid  1:27  
Thank you very much. Now we've known each other for about three and a half years now. But I feel like I've known you forever since we met in Canada only three and a half years ago. And we've seen each other in UK in the UK here for a conference. But I feel like I've known you forever. We've we should just instantly clicked didn't we?

Alison  1:47  
I think I felt the same thing. It helps that we met in a conference. And we got to spend a lot of time together over the four days and we really got a good chance to know each other right from the get go. And then we connected instantly online, which was so great. We're lucky to have this possibility to create and maintain relationships online. And then, with your volunteer work in my volunteer work, we've had lots of overlap and our interests, our mutual interests and always wanting to create positive content for people online. So I don't think it's very surprising that we have a lot in common.

Ingrid  2:20  
I agree. I agree. Now, it's very interesting, Alison, because in today's podcast, we're gonna talk about chronic disorganisation. And our listeners might be thinking chronic disorganisation. What is that? I've heard about clutter. I've heard about decluttering and organising. I've heard about hoarding. But I've never heard about chronic disorganisation. So I think we should start there. What is chronic disorganisation?

Alison  2:52  
Well, I'd be happy to share the official definition with you in a couple of minutes. But I think it might be easier to help your listeners come towards an understanding of what it is if I share a little story with you. So if you allow me I will share a story with you. It's an analogy, please solely, if we think about if we think about five basic resources that we all have to manage in our lives, we manage our money, we manage our space, we manage our belongings, or energy and our food. For example, every single one of us is familiar with this, we manage those resources. So if we take someone if we think about just food, for example, let's just talk about food. How well does someone manage the need for food in their lives? If you take someone for example, that their statuses, they're well nourished, and they have all the nutrients that they need, they have no food issues like allergies or intolerance, and they're basically healthy. So that's the status of someone, for example, in terms of food, and then if you look at that same person, and you say, what kind of a routine might that person have, it's very likely that that person has identified what they need to stay in good health, and what they what they need to eat that makes them feel good on an ongoing basis. And so they've created routines in their life that support that continuing good status, for example. So the routine and the status support the individual, and that leaves the person feeling confident and strong. If they have a healthy status, and if they have good routine, they feel healthy and strong and confident. And then you take someone with a completely different status. Take someone who might be missing basic nutrient nutrients, take someone who might have an underlying food issue that they might not even be aware of. Maybe they've already identified it, maybe they haven't identified it yet. So maybe food is very difficult for this person. They go to a restaurant and they're very uncomfortable with the menu they don't know what to order because they know from previous experience that it's going to be difficult so just going to a restaurant could be stressful. If this person is walking down the street and they feel a bit peckish, they want to eat something They can't necessarily just step into the chippy and just buy some some french fries and just feel satisfied, like the healthy person might do. Because this person has all these underlying issues that make it so that it's complicated. The food issue is complicated. And also the routines of this second individual will be different because they might be kind of exploring. Why is it that I am not comfortable in a restaurant? Why is it that I get a stomachache? Why is it that I don't feel satisfied? Why is it that I'm tired all the time? Why is it so complicated for me, and it's not complicated for my spouse or my partner or my friend or my daughter? This is what chronic disorganisation feels like. It's mysterious, and it's different for every individual. So for example, if we think about how a person manages their clutter, if a person does not experience chronic disorganisation, and they have a little bit of clutter in their house, maybe they have a backlog or they have a closet that needs decluttering. If it's a person that has a basic, healthy, strong status in terms of managing their belongings, they're going to be able to attack that closet, open that drawer deal with that pile, because they're going to start with some confidence. They're going to start with some good routines and some basic self knowledge and understanding. And they can dive in and actually do it and finish it and say, Okay, I did it. Now I'm feeling good again. But someone who comes to that closet or backlog with chronic disorganisation in their lives, this person is going to have a lack of confidence, they're going to have a history of failed attempts at improving their own situation, they're going to be lacking structure and routines that they might need in order to address this challenge successfully. They might be lacking self knowledge. Why is it that I struggle so much with this? decluttering why is it that I struggled so much, everybody else seems to have no difficulty decluttering a closet or a drawer? They just do it and they turn the page and they move on and they feel good. But every time I try it's so difficult for me. That's like when the person goes to the restaurant and they're confused. Why is it that everybody else is satisfied with this menu? And it's so difficult for me. It's because on an individual basis, the person is arriving at the challenge with different routines and status and and challenges basically. Okay, chronic disorganisation, which there's three three criteria. It persists over a long period of time. So it's not just since the baby was born two months ago, it's not just since you I moved six months ago, we're talking about disorganisation that exists for a long time. Second of all, the chronic disorganisation frequently undermines quality of life. Which means that I'm trying to do things on a daily basis and the disorganisation gets in my way on a daily basis. And third, the disorganisation recurs despite my repeated self help attempts, I tried to declutter, I try to get organised again and again, and I keep trying and I just never seem to get on top of it. So that is the official current definition of chronic disorganisation. According to the Institute for challenging disorganisation. So what does it feel like to have chronic to be living with chronic disorganisation? It feels uncomfortable. That's the easiest word to say. For starters, it feels very uncomfortable. People frequently feel frustrated. They try and try to improve their situation. And they don't seem to make feel that they're making progress. So they're frustrated because they keep investing effort and energy and time. And they don't feel they're making progress. People can feel that it's unfair. Why is it so hard for me, and it doesn't seem to be hard for the person next to me. So it can feel very unfair. It can feel very confusing, because I'm doing everything that they told me to do. I'm following all the suggestions, and it's not working for me. So it can feel very confusing. It can feel mysterious for the same reason. It can also feel frightening, because I'm following all the instructions. I'm doing everything that everyone is saying I bought all the books I bought what I think are all the right containers and everything. And yet I just don't seem to be getting a handle on it. So I'm investing all this time and energy and I'm not getting any results that can feel frightening for a person. And then there's also the aspect where sometimes other people look at us or pointed us and they go Why Why aren't you picking up after yourself? Why do you use your home so untidy are so disorganised. So there can be an aspect of blame or shame involved? People can feel embarrassed people can feel there's something wrong with me because I can't manage To get this under control and other people seem to be managing, so I feel embarrassed or shameful. And sometimes other people judge us. And so we feel we're being blamed and shamed from other people. And that's a very heavy thing to be living with and dealing with. So that's a little bit of like, what it feels like, haven't talked yet about what it looks like. But I'd like to give you an opportunity to jump in in case I need to clarify anything or in case you have questions about what I've said so far, Ingrid?

Ingrid  10:27  
Yes, for sure. First of all, because in the bio when I introduced you, I said that when you were studying to become a professional organiser, you came to realise yourself that you were affected by chronic disorganisation. So all the things you've just been describing into how does it feel like, I'm sure you can relate to them, because you were there,

Alison  10:54  
I was there. And I am still there to be perfectly frank, not to scare people off. But I think it's important to be very honest, I believe in being frank with people. So when I discovered professional organising 10 years ago, and I started taking classes to become a professional organiser, because I do have very strong innate organising ability, I started taking all these classes, and I started looking around more critically at my own environment and my own belongings, and I came to the understanding that looking around me, there was actually quite a lot of clutter and much more volume of belongings, then would be recommended. And I started understanding better the consequences of all of this around me, I became more sensitive, before we went on air, you were telling me about feedback that you get from people in the membership of the decluttering. Hub, and how so many people tell you that when they're in in this membership, that they end up developing more understanding about the power of clutter and the relationship they have with their things, and the value of learning about these things and getting a handle on it? Well, it's so it's a learning curve, it takes a while. And it's a personal journey, because everybody is starting from a different place. And everybody has different resources. So they're going to advance at a different speed and et cetera. So I started 10 years ago, and what I came to the conclusion, what I learned over time is I had some notions that were unhelpful. Some beliefs that I should be living a certain way. And so I was bringing certain items into my home because I thought that I should be having these kinds of items in my home, I realised that to a certain extent, shopping for me was a soothing activity, it made me feel like I wasn't hard done by financially that I didn't have financial challenges. If I could bring home two or three bags from the charity shop, then I don't have a problem with money, I'm not poor. I think that's a very, very common reaction for people. Often people who feel that they're struggling with money want to bring home bags of things, because it feels a bit reassuring, and I was doing a lot of that. So I was filling up my home, unnecessarily with Volume and Volume and Volume, I did not have any notion about the impact of the size of a collection. So we all have collections in our homes, you have a collection of books, and a collection of tools and a collection of clothes, etc, I did not have a notion of the importance of keeping limits on those collections. So they just spread and spread and spread. And I did not realise how the negative impact the cost to me and my family because of that lack. So there were a number of different issues for me, that I identified over the years and I made tremendous progress. So for example, now, I do not bring home too much stuff, I do not shop unnecessarily in order to make myself feel better. I have learned and understood and modified my behaviour and the volume of things in my home is very reasonable. Now you could come into my home in five minutes, I would not feel the need to run around and hide things or make it company ready. So that's completely different from before. But there are still some things I've struggled with. It's been 10 years now. And there are a couple of categories that are still difficult for me to manage. I still struggle with time management. And when there is a big challenge in my life, a new demand on my time that occurs. I sometimes find myself becoming overwhelmed all over again, like I did a number of years ago. So chronic disorganisation does not go away overnight. We can develop skills and routines and self knowledge and we can talk about that later in the conversation. But it starts with self knowledge, I think and the recognition that it's okay that it's different for me than for someone else. Getting back to the analogy of food. It's like saying, okay, maybe I have a lactose intolerance or maybe I have a vitamin D deficiency, or maybe I don't like eating mushrooms, so I have to make adjustments. In what I eat in order to feel good, it's the same thing with our belongings and our management of our space and our time. If I understand myself better, I can make the good choices for me so that I can manage my resources best for me, and it'll make me feel better on a daily basis.

Ingrid  15:17  
So interest, it's so interesting, I find it so interesting.

Alison  15:21  
I think that the easiest way to describe what does it look like I will give you two images. And one image is because I'm a professional organiser, so I'm going to describe what it could look like if I walk into someone's home and I get to meet them. And I come to the conclusion that they are affected by chronic disorganisation. And I will also draw you a picture of what it looks like in comparison. A person who I come to the conclusion they are not affected by chronic disorganisation, because I think holding those two images up side by side is going to help people understand, okay, so if I go and meet a person, and they take me on a tour of their house, and they describe what their challenges are in there, they're wanting to hire me as a professional organiser. And they, the first thing we do is we take a tour of the apartment of the home. And I say, just talk to me, just tell me about this space, tell me what makes you feel good. And tell me what doesn't make you feel good. And so they'll say, Okay, this whole shelving unit here, I have no problem with it. It's not a problem. And it works. For me, it's no problem. This thing over here, this box over here, this really bothers me, I don't know what to do with this box. It's a problem for me, I'm stuck. This drawer over here, it's a problem for me, this cupboard over here, it's fine. I don't have a problem with it. And as we go through the home, what I try to do is I this is important, this took me a couple of years to figure out, in a sense, I try not to get overwhelmed by what I'm seeing. Because it can be very misleading. I could be seeing things that look very tidy. But underlying there could be something else, I could see things that look very cluttered, but actually it's working well for the person. So I consider the most important information that the client is telling me is how do they feel about it. So if a person says, I feel good about this, I say okay, they don't need my help. It's working for them. I trust what they say it's working for me, it's not a problem. If the person says, this is a problem for me, it doesn't matter what it looks like, they're telling me it's a problem for them, therefore, we're going to work on it. So if I go into a person's home, and most of the home, they say I don't have a problem, I don't have a problem. I don't have a problem. I don't have a problem, but the kitchen, and they've hired me for the kitchen. And that's the only area that's really bothering them. And it's just the kitchen and everything else is fine. I would probably come to the conclusion that this is not a person affected by chronic disorganisation. Because they have already figured out systems that work for them in their office and in their clothing and in their bedroom and in their front hallway and in their basement and in their storage, etc. They don't need me for all that stuff. They obviously have the skills and the understanding. In order to manage most of their life, they just have this one area where they're stuck for whatever reason. So that's probably not a situation where there's any chronic disorganisation. So that's one person, the other individual, if I go into their home, and we do a tour, they show me the front hall closet, and there's going to be some probably some clutter, they're going to show me the kitchen, and there's going to be some discomfort and confusion. And I don't I'm stuck here and I don't know what to do there. They're going to show me the bedroom and there's going to be issues, they're going to show me the papers and probably there's going to be issues, they're going to show me the basement, there's probably going to be issues. Basically, most of the zones in the house are probably going to have issues of discomfort and confusion. And one of the things that I've come I've come to understand is that one of the reasons why it may be everywhere the issues is because people who experience chronic disorganisation frequently struggle with boundaries. So for example, a person you might keep all of your books in a bookshelf, you might keep all of your books in a bookshelf, and you might put them all the way in the bookshelf, and therefore there's no issue. But a person who experiences chronic disorganisation might not have that same comprehension of the container of the bookshelf and the value of always putting the books away in the bookshelf. They might have looser boundaries, and they might leave books lying around, or store them on a windowsill or something and not understand the consequences of how that creates clutter and how it blurs the lines and it affects other areas. So when I'm doing the tour of the house, what I'm going to see with someone affected by chronic disorganisation is lots of overlap. So there's going to be clothes where I wouldn't normally expect to see clothes. I'm gonna see books where I wouldn't normally and it's all kind of mixed up and unclear. And the person is telling me that they're feeling overwhelmed and they don't know what to do. So there's a feeling a general feeling of CHAOS a little bit and confusion. I don't know what to do. And this is important to me here, but I don't understand why. So that's that's it. That's a visual image of what the two homes might look like and what the client would report to me.

Ingrid  20:14  
Okay, so one professional organiser to the other. I know the answer to this question, but I'm going to ask it anyway, because I think my listeners, our listeners will be interested in this. What you're describing is kind of a chaotic home. So would people from the outside possibly saying this person is maybe a person with a hoarding disorder because it looks very chaotic, and possibly a lot of stuff in the wrong place. So what then if you please enlighten us is the difference between a person who is struggling with hoarding disorder, and a person who's got chronic disorganisation? I'm sure that it's a little bit of overlap, but I can very clearly understand how you're explaining this to me, but if our listeners are gonna think you do, but but that sounds like a hoarder house. Can you can you shed some light on that? eligibles I think that will be very interesting for our listeners.

Alison  21:13  
Well, I'm very I'm very grateful that you're asking this question in grid because I think it's hugely important that when we start talking about chronic disorganisation, that we do differentiate the difference between chronic disorganisation and hoarding because there is overlap you are absolutely correct, but there's also tremendous differentiation between the two. First thing is chronic disorganisation is a description of an environment. My home has chronic disorganisation. I am affected by chronic disorganisation. It's not a diagnosis on me. I am not I we always try to avoid in my world we try to avoid saying a person is chronically disorganised, because that's putting a label on the individual, and that's hard to escape. So I've talked about my clients as a client who is affected by chronic disorganisation. So that's one thing it separates the issue from the individual. Secondly, hoarding disorder is a mental health disorder that is identified in the the DSM, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual in 2013. It was diagnosed on its own right as a mental health disorder with specific criteria that psychiatrists this specially trained psychiatrists will use in order to identify if an individual is affected by hoarding disorder. I'm a professional organiser I specialise in chronic disorganisation. I do not have the right to walk into a home and say to a person or even to myself, you are experiencing hoarding disorder. I don't have the right to diagnose that only a trained mental health professional has the right so it's a very different thing. That's one thing. Second of all, when I'm working with people, and I go into their homes, and it looks kind of chaotic, and I come to the conclusion, this is probably chronic disorganisation, what I'm seeing and hearing I do ask myself, Is it possible that there's some hoarding disorder going on here as well? I asked myself the question, and the the the way that I have come to be able to differentiate. It's a very simplistic test, but it's a very helpful test. First of all, let's say that I work with a client for an hour. And we've created two bags for charity that the client says, I don't need those clothes or those books anymore. Here. They're in bags, let's put them by the door. Yes, they can go. As I'm walking out the door. I can say to the client, would you like me to drop those off at the charity shop for you? If the client responds and says, Oh, that would be such a big help. Thank you so much. Yes, please get them out of here. That to me says the person was experiencing chronic disorganisation, they were confused, they were overwhelmed. I've helped them clarify things, they're happy for the the excess clutter to go out the door. Because they've made the choices on the individual items. A person who might be might be affected by hoarding disorder, will see those two bags by the door and they will have probably tremendous difficulty to let those bags go. They will really not want me to walk out the door, they will say to them, they will it'll feel tremendously Discom a tremendous discomfort, almost like painful. And they will think of me walking out the door with those two bags and they will say, No, no, it's okay. I'll drop them off. It's okay. Don't worry about it. And frequently what happens is I come back the next week and those two bags are still sitting there. Or the client has taken the two bags and hidden them in a closet somewhere so that I wouldn't even see them. Because the person is struggling with a different nature of challenge. It's much more severe, and it's based in mental health issues and it comes from a background and it's it's much more complex. X. And that's not my specialty. My specialty is working with people who experience chronic disorganisation. And there's a lot that we can do to help these folks.

Ingrid  25:10  
Absolutely. Brilliantly explained Allison, and I think that will help a lot of our listeners as well. who are listening to the podcast and thinking, gosh, you know, I do have some stuff and wow, and how do I deal with it? And I think that has explained in very clear terms. And yes, we both know there is so much involved with with hoarding and chronic disorganisation. But we need to make sure that our listeners get on board and understand what we're talking about as well. But I think that it is really helpful. Thank you so much. Okay, so going back then to companies organisation, why are we even talking about this? I mean, did we even notice? What's the thing?

Alison  25:53  
Well, I would say that we're talking about it for the exact same reason that you and Lesley created the declutter hub. It's the exact same question. It's the exact same answer. Why did you create it, you created it because you recognise that when people live with Clutter and chaos in their homes, that it affects their well being, it affects their efficiency, it affects their finances, it affects their ability to do what they want in life. It affects their self esteem, it affects their relationships, it affects their time management, it affects everything, the way we manage our belongings, affects every part of our lives. And chronic disorganisation. All it is, is an identification, if you will, of people who are trying to address these very real issues, but they have additional challenges. So it's like they're hungry, they want to go to the restaurant, they want to have dinner just like everybody else, because we all need to eat. But it's just harder to go to a restaurant and find something on the menu that we can eat that will satisfy us and meet our nutritional needs. Because we arrive with these additional challenges, let's say. So it's all about supporting our life, trying to accomplish what we need in life. The I like to think of our belongings, the only reason that they are in my home is because they give something to my life, they add value to my life, they help me accomplish what I want in my life. If it's stored in a way that I can find it if it's things that I have actually evaluated, and I've decided they give me value than they should stay, and everything else is just extra and it's an it's in the way. And that's exactly I believe the same mentality that the declutter, have has its keep the things that serve you. There's no judgement about how much it should be. You decide what's good for you. It's your home, you're the expert in your own home. It's the exact same thing for people with challenging with chronic disorganisation. It's just that they need a little bit more help.

Ingrid  27:51  
Well, thank you, Alison. That is completely true. And that's why one of the reasons why unless you are set up to declutter, hope you realise that people needed help. And there's lots of people who can't have a professional organiser in their house, and we just want it to be there online for them. And that's why we have the videos and the quick wins. And we've got the checklists, and we've got a live q&a Every other week where our members can ask us questions. So listeners, if you're listening to this and think you know what I would love to be a part of the declutter membership. Have a look on members dot Declutter. hub.com. For more information, you can read all about it, what we do and why we love it so much. Okay, can you give me because I, we have so much to talk about, I realised when preparing this podcast, and I'm thinking to myself, You know what, this is so interesting. I want to talk to Ellison some more. So we've actually decided to do a second podcast. So I'm now going to ask the closing question for this podcast. But I'm already assuring you that we are going to come back with part number two. And we're going to record it with Allison. Because I want to know far more, because I think it's very, very interesting. So then the closing question for this podcast. What kind of factors may contribute to chronic disorganisation?

Alison  29:13  
Well, that's an very interesting and important question. And I'm so glad you asked it. And the Institute for challenging disorganisation has a fact sheet available for free to the public for download. And I've got it on my screen right now in front of my face just to give you an be able to refer to it, but it is available to the public for free. So if you're interested in what I'm going to tell you, you're very welcome to go to the website, challenging disorganisation.org in the resources section, and you can download this it's factsheet number four. So what this factsheet refers to is there's a list of I don't know how many items are on this list, there might be, I don't know. 80 items 100 items on this list. There's a lot of items on this list that have been identified. FIDE as factors that may contribute to chronic disorganisation. So it's divided into three categories one category are brain based conditions. So for example, if someone is affected by ADHD, or multiple sclerosis, or depression, or an addiction of some kind, or obsessive compulsive disorder or hoarding disorder, or decision making difficulty or memory deficits, or dyslexia, there are so many different neurologically based conditions that can result in having more disorganisation in life. The second category is called beliefs about yourself and your possessions. So perfectionism is something that's very, very common. When we're looking at clutter, many people are affected by a notion of perfectionism. Another belief about ourselves and our possessions would be attachments to our possessions, or beliefs and attitudes, or ineffective beliefs about our possessions. And the third category are what we call situational factors. So if someone has physical challenges, like impaired mobility, or if a person is going through a life crisis, or if a person is lacking skills, or the person is going through a transition, there's many, many on that list, situational factors which can contribute to disorganisation. And this might sound like an awful lot, and people might feel like a little bit overwhelmed by the reference to all of these different items. Quite frankly, when I look at this list, and I went through it with a fine tooth comb and identified the specific items that I feel apply in my situation. I felt tremendous relief. I didn't feel overwhelmed, I felt relieved, and I felt it like a mystery had been solved. And I felt validated. And then I realised, now that I understand what some of the underlying factors are, now I can do something about it. And I think that that's like a perfect segue for the second part of our interview, where we're going to be talking about strategies and what we can do about it. So this This document is a very powerful tool that people can use to get started along that path.

Ingrid  32:16  
Are you happy for me to share the link in the show notes to this effect sheet? Allison?

Alison  32:22  
Absolutely. For sure.

Ingrid  32:23  
That challenging disorganisation.org resources, I will put it all in the show notes. So under if you're if you're driving around listening to this podcast, or if you're in which your shopping trolley somewhere, and you're like, oh my gosh, I don't have anything to write this down. Don't worry, I'll put it in the show notes on the website of the Declutter. hub.com. And I will put the I will also definitely put all Alison's social media links in there. But I will make sure to put this in I make a big arrow and a cross on my on my machine. So I don't forget to put that in. So you can at your own leisure, just have a little look through if you think about that. And yes, I agree with you what a perfect way to close this podcast and kind of say, Okay, we've now got the definition. We know how it feels like, what's the difference between people who are affected and not effectively Coronavirus organisation? And what kind of factors contribute to that. So I love it. I love it that we're now going to do a part two strategies and what can you do? So, Alison, if our listeners you, I know you love social media, you are everywhere. So I'm going to include all of your links. What would you like our listeners to find out most? If they can only do one or two things on social media? What would you like me to find a way to have a look?

Alison  33:42  
Well, thank you very much for the invitation, I would say that the two platforms where I pay the most attention to adding content are my professional Facebook page. So it's Alison lash Certified Professional organiser. And the other is my YouTube channel, which is I've been I've got some very good videos. They're both in English and in French, with some very original content, let's say just leave it like that.

Ingrid  34:11  
Oh, you're giving us like a little like a hook. Now that we want to have a look. That's good. That's very good. Yes, because of course you're from Canada, but you organise both in French and in English, don't you? Yes, I do. Yeah. And you are also a trainer in both French and English, aren't you as well master trainer? Yes, I am. Yes, we have good people here as guests on the podcast listeners. We only invite the best of the best on the show to chat to you. So listeners. I hope you have learned a lot today and that Ellison's insights have been helpful for you. And yes, don't worry, we're going to put all of the links up and all the in the fact you definitely as well. So thanks for taking the time to listen today. Ellison thank you so much and I'm already looking forward to recording part two with you.

Alison  34:57  
It's been a tremendous honour to be here. I Really appreciate you making space for this conversation and grid. And I hope that your listeners who this is an issue for will feel that they're getting some clarity and some support in this area on top of all the support that you and Leslie offer on an ongoing basis.

Ingrid  35:16  
Well, thank you so much. It's been my pleasure. Absolutely. So, listeners if you'd like to more. To get more tips and advice, please follow the declutter hub on social media. We are on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook as at declutter hub. And we've got such a lovely Facebook group called the declutter hub community. So come and find us there. And yes, don't forget our membership area. If you'd like to know more, have a look at members dot declutterhub.com To find out more about our courses, and live q&a In our membership community. If you don't want to miss the next weekly episode, subscribe to the declutter hub podcast on Apple podcasts, Spotify and Stitcher and we'll pop into your notifications each Friday. See you next week.

Outro  35:57  
Thanks for listening to this week's episode of the declutter hub podcast. Check out declutterhub.com for more inspiration, and don't forget to tune in next week.
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Useful Links and Resources
You can find out more about Alison in the following places
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Recent Posts
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Vickie says:

22 May 2020 at 8:51 PM

Great episode! Looking forward to the second part.

Reply
1. Lesley Spellman says:
  
  29 May 2020 at 8:52 PM
  
  The second part is even better, Vickie. Glad it hit home
  Lesley x
  
  Reply
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