A photograph of a smiling Sarah Bickers wearing a blue top
Episode 84 – ADHD and Clutter: Effective Decluttering Techniques

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Transcript of this podcast episode
Intro  0:07  
Welcome to today's episode of The declutter hub podcast, your channel for super easy, no nonsense advice on how to declutter and organise your home. Please welcome your host professional organisers, Ingrid Jansen, and Lesley Spellman.

Ingrid  0:31  
Hello and welcome listeners to Episode 84 of the Declutter Hub Podcast. I'm Ingrid. Before we get started with the main part of the podcast, I'd like to remind you of our declutter membership. If you are overwhelmed and struggle with clutter and need guidance and motivation, the membership is the perfect place to be. There we guide you step by step through each area of your home with courses, live q&a sessions, challenges, quick wins and our community chat. If you'd like to know more, have a look on members dot declutter app.com. Now in today's episode, I have the pleasure of talking to several Baker's of free your space again, Sara focuses on working with clients with ADHD. And she loves being an informed calm and supportive ally to her clients. And she also delivers workshops, talks to ADHD support groups, and has recently launched a new training programme ADHD for organisers. So welcome back, Sarah, thank you for being on the show again.

Sarah  1:34  
Thank you. So good to be here.

Ingrid  1:38  
We are delighted to have you back because the last time we spoke, we really spoke about if ADHD and clutter are linked and what kind of things kind of come up when ADHD is involved when you are having a cluttered home? And after that episode, I was like buzzing with questions. And I thought, I'm a very practical person. So what do I do? And I love practicality as most of our listeners probably know by now, I'm a kind of down to the ground clogs on, what do we do, I like doing stuff. So I thought I need to get you back on the show. And we need to talk about practical techniques about how you can deal with your clutter. If you have ADHD and you're probably if you know you've got ADHD, you're probably diagnosed. Or if you maybe think or suspect you have ADHD. But you might think this sounds very familiar. So but I think your a lot of your practical techniques can help people who don't have ADHD and feel very overwhelmed and cluttered. So that's why it's a perfect, you're the perfect person to talk to Sarah.

Sarah  2:43  
Thank you. Thank you.

Ingrid  2:45  
So to help with the arc. I'm delighted, I'm delighted. So practically, what do people need to do?

Sarah  2:54  
Well, I would say the very first thing is to get your head around the fact that the more stuff you own, the more complicated your life is going to be. And so as we talked about in our last podcast, decision making is a real challenge for people with ADHD. So often there is a lot of clutter, or you know, projects that haven't been completed or decisions that have been deferred essentially. And something that we often talk about with clients is just the cost of keeping the staff versus the cost of letting go stuff. So when you're making a decision, you know, you could of course, keep everything but then you'd still feel overwhelmed and cluttered. And you could let go of stuff. And the cost of letting go of stuff is of course that there will be the odd thing that you declutter, that you regret, and you have to be prepared to pay that price in order to declutter and simplify your life. And I think it's interesting because the concepts of minimalism, I think, are often quite appealing to people with ADHD because you've just got a whole lot less stuff that you've got to manage. So that feeling when you go on holiday, and you're in a holiday apartment that just has the bare minimum in your kitchen, and it's got, you know, bedding on the beds, but you haven't got all the other associated stuff and it just looks lovely. I think most of us that's that's quite an appealing way of living, even if we couldn't keep it up for that long. So the first challenge to you if you have ADHD is to start thinking about simplifying so I tend not to use minimalism as a model. But I do use the concept of simplicity and simplifying and just reducing the number of choices and decisions you're having to make. This might be as simple as being prepared to turn things down and turn down projects and if you've been used to always saying yes to everything because you know something comes up you get excited by it. Sounds great. It's a good in between principle is to just say, Oh, can I have a think about it and get back to you on that. And also, the same applies to things like shopping, you go shopping, but you don't actually buy the thing that day you just take a photograph of it, make a note of where you found it, and then go home and think about and think, Do I really need this? Is it adding anything to my life? Or is this just becoming more plus fun. So the less stuff we own, the easier our life feels. And that's true for everyone ADHD or not, it's particularly true for people with ADHD, if I could give you one tip, it would be to own less,

Ingrid  5:34  
I think you're so right. I think that is something that I really try and share with my clients as well is that the more clutter you have, the more distractions you have in your house. And all this stuff needs time and space and energy and attention and cleaning and moving and storing and donating. And it's so true that the more stuff you have, the more complicated you make it for yourself. And if you have bedding, just three sets of bedding is enough, one on the bed, one in the cupboard and one in the wash, you don't need to have 12 of everything, because you just make your cupboards bursting at the seams. And every time you have a choice of 12 to go through and it makes your brain go.

Sarah  6:21  
You know, last time we were talking about perfectionism, this kind of brings us back to that point of you know, you want to make the perfect choice every time. So what you do, you choose three different cereals because you'll have the perfect cereal for every day. And I think as you reduce your top choices, you also address the perfectionism. So you say, Okay, I'm going to make a choice, that's going to rule out those two other choices, I'm just going to cut myself down to one choice of cereal. And then that's all the choice I'll have. But making the decision to reduce your choices really takes the pressure away takes the stress off.

Ingrid  6:57  
Yeah. And I think also definitely also then the decision fatigue that because it eats tremendous amount of energy in your brain and your brain power to have to make all these choices all the time. So if there's less in your house, it just makes it so much easier. And you have room in your brain to think about other things. We know the examples online from very famous people who have the same white t shirts and the same jeans or the same suits. Because they have so many decisions to make everyday they want to make getting dressed and easy, almost boring task, but it just doesn't eat up any brainpower. I'm with you I'm with simplifying is I think, very, very important. You also then have maybe not connected to reducing what comes in is that also.

Sarah  7:44  
Yeah, sharp. That yeah, definitely. So you know, I always say declutter at the point of entry. So whether you're coming back from a conference, or whether you're bringing a book back home from school, or whether you're shopping, it's about bringing less into your house, because the more you have in your house, the more complicated things get, you know, basically our job is reducing what comes in to our clients houses, increasing what goes out, and then helping them organise what's left. That's the three point structure of what professional organisers do. And as clients learn those principles themselves, then their lives do become simpler and less cluttered and less overwhelming.

Ingrid  8:28  
For what other practical strategy, can you tell us about sherif?

Sarah  8:32  
So I think another really important principle is having a place for everything in your home. And this always sounds a bit retentive, doesn't it always sounds a bit uptight, but I don't think it is, I think it's, it's like, if you've got six possible places where the scissors could be, then that's six different places, you've got to look every time you try and find the scissors. And so actually saying, right, where do the scissors belong in our house. And this might be a kind of family decision. And you might all talk about it together and say, okay, the scissors belong in the kitchen drawer. That doesn't mean that every single day, they're always going to be in the kitchen drawer. Because particularly for people with ADHD, putting them back in the kitchen drawer is another challenge. But it does mean that you know, the first place to look and the everybody in the house knows where those scissors belong and where they should put them back. And I think it actually reduces the kind of mental effort involved in daily life. You have a place where your keys belong, you have a place to hang up coats, you know, you have a place where the shoe cleaning kit belongs it just it's another thing you don't have to think about. And with ADHD, there's so many things so many competing distractions in your world, you'd want to kind of dial it down a little bit and reduce the number of distractions reduce the number of options, possibilities, because that way your life will feel simpler. You'll feel more in control. I think

Ingrid  9:58  
so too. I mean It almost seems to be an old fashioned right a place for everything, everything in its place. People go, Oh my gosh, they really roll their eyes. But I'm thinking, you know, what? Have you ever tried it because it's actually amazing that when you, I almost call it finishing a cycle. And I use an example of, you have to wrap a present because you're going to a party. How wonderful is it to be able to know, this is where the wrapping paper is, this is where the sisters are, this is where the sticky tape is, and preferably relatively all close together. But when you've wrapped the present, you don't just run out the door you go, let me return these items to where they belong. So you don't get a pile of random stuff for 14 Different parts of random stuff. And then the next time you need to find a decision in the sticky tape you're like, can we afford in different piles, and then you lose so much time trying to find them again, or people buy them again, because they can't find them. And that's when you get a tremendous influx of stuff as well.

Sarah  11:04  
Yeah, and I think it's something that, you know, we're both very familiar with working with clients that a big part of our work is helping them decide where they want to keep staff, zoning staff zoning an area says it works really well. So I love the present mapping example. It's a great example, isn't it, and having everything in a place that makes sense to most people. So you know, if you do all your mapping in the dining room, and then keeping your wrapping box or whatever up in the bedroom is not going to work, you need to make it as simple as possible. And I think there's never more true than for people with ADHD, you want to make it really simple and straightforward and reduce the obstacles because then then you are more likely to use it. And then I think the other element. The other side of this is the putting things back in the place. And I mentioned this in the blog that I wrote for you. But I think one of the things that I've learned in the last year or so I've been thinking a lot about tidiness and messiness. And in that blog, I mentioned that the big difference between a tidy person and a messy person is that a tidy person finishes the job. And when you have ADHD, you're so often your mind is on the next thing that you're going to do, or the next two or three things that you're going to do, rather than being really properly present in the moment. So part of tidying away that wrapping staff is fully engaging with that moment of wrapping the present. And then instead of thinking about, Oh, I'm going to take that out the front door, you think, right, I'm just going to complete this task and finish it properly and put everything back in its right place. And that involves slowing down. And, and that's a real challenge for ADHD that even the concept of mindfulness is quite challenging for people with ADHD. And yet, when people with ADHD, learn mindfulness techniques, and learn to be more present in the moment, as they're doing something, it makes a massive, massive difference. And I know that there's some research being done at the moment on this. So, you know, watch this space, but I think I think just slowing down and recognise or recognising that you're racing can just sometimes be a good trigger to say, Okay, I need to just stop, I need to calm down. I need to finish what I'm doing. I need to put hang my coat up, put my shoes away, but the keys in the place where they belong. And that I think is a massive key in terms of helping people with ADHD become tidier. People

Ingrid  13:31  
couldn't agree more with everything you said. You're also the kind of in between line set, reducing the obstacles to become tidier. Can you give me some more examples of that? Because I think that's very fascinating and very interesting.

Sarah  13:43  
Yeah. So if your child doesn't put their dirty clothes in the washing basket, ask yourself the question Is it really, really, really easy for them to do. And if they're having to take their clothing out of their room, maybe downstairs and put it in the laundry basket next to the washing machine, then you've basically set the hurdles quite high for that child with ADHD, for example, to jump over. Whereas if the child had a basket or tarp or hamper in their room, no lid on, keep the lids off. And you encourage them to make it into a game when you've taken your socks off, see if you can log them into the laundry basket. So you make it fun as well, that works quite well. And that means that all the laundry is either going to be in that basket or in a very small perimeter around the basket if they didn't quite make it in there. So you've reduced the obstacles for that child and you've also got them into the habit of starting to take responsibility for their belongings. So so that's what I mean by reducing the obstacles and it could be as simple as having lids off boxes. Sometimes it can be really helpful for children to have or adults to have open storage without doors. Basically anything that's good getting in the way of you finishing a task is an obstacle. So for each different individual, it's going to be different. So, for example, I was working with a client this morning, and she had her to do list in a really nice, neat set of drawers in a cupboard. And I said to her, you know, does that work for you? And she said, Well, you know, I tend to forget the to dues, you know, because they're hidden away and out of sight out of mind is, again, quite a challenge for people with ADHD, because they often have working memory problems. So we talked about it, and we came up with a solution, which was that she was going to have an open box on top, so that her to do list went into that open box, and she could see it, but it wasn't as messy as a big pile of papers on the table, she had a way of just picking up that box moving on to the table when she wanted to look through the to do list, but it wasn't hidden away in a drawer, because that had become an obstacle to her. Does that make sense?

Ingrid  15:59  
Absolutely. And I also want to then ask you, does it help to have labels or pictures of items on boxes? So maybe for younger children, a picture of a car or train or doll? Or maybe for children who are older a label? Does that

Sarah  16:16  
help? Yeah, no, definitely. And it's reducing the mental mental effort involved. So if, for example, all the child's So say you've got an open like the Calix storage units, for example, and the bottom left are all green, and they're the children's toys, the child instantly knows where to look, when they go for their toys, they know that they're in the green containers, maybe the blue ones have household stuff, everybody in the house knows that the green containers belong to the child. And what I've done in the past is I've photographed some of the objects in the box, printed them out, laminated them, and written the name of the thing on there. So say it's a box of balls, then you take a picture of some balls and write balls down next to it and, and so it becomes like an educational thing as well, you're, you're dealing with a whole lot of different things, but you're doing it in a fun way. And in a way that they don't have to read balls every time they just the words there, and it's associated with it, and the child. Most importantly, it means the child has ownership of that task. At the end of the day, you say to them, can you go and put the balls back in the box, and they're not going to get it right all the time, particularly if they've got ADHD, they might need some supervision and some encouragement to tidy up and you might tidy up with them, or have music going on in the background to kind of energise them. All of those things are really good practical things that will help encourage children in particular, to be tidy, for adults, use of colour. So when I'm using a filing system, I'll often encourage people to maybe work out what their big categories are. So for example, you might have household as one category, finances as another category and say your work as a final category. And you might have each of those three, filed in different colours, so that when they're going to work, when they're going to look at their for their work stuff, they immediately rule out the red and the yellow colours, and they go straight to green. So I'm concentrating on green a lot to play on. So the practical way of using colour, and labels can also be effective. And all of these things, what they're doing is reducing the mental load, they're just you don't have to think you just look and see. And I would say colour is probably even more useful than labels labels are useful when you go into more detail. But, you know, for big categories, colour is normally enough.

Ingrid  18:46  
Yes, sir. That makes complete sense. And actually, it was so interesting that you were talking about the colours and the main categories, because I was working on a filing cabinet the other day. And without even now realising I did the same thing, the client doesn't have ADHD. But we also said, let's choose red for all the children's stuff. Let's choose green labels. For all the finance stuff, let's use blue for all the household and yellow for health. And we did it like that as well. So the main categories were divided in colour, so it's easier to actually find a certain file when you're looking in a filing cabinet. So I think this kind of advice is really helpful for anybody who's got a lot of clutter and wants to kind of figure out a system for them that works.

Sarah  19:32  
I mean, I think all of this advice works for most human beings. It's just that people with ADHD, need extra help in some of these areas, or they've maybe never thought about the impact of having everything all bundled in together.

Ingrid  19:46  
Then you mentioned I think in the last podcast that tweaking and not ditching, and I thought that I found that very interesting. So I would like to talk a little bit more about that. But can you remind us what that was about?

Sarah  19:59  
So um, The idea is that you if you set up a system, a new system, so say, doing the laundry, you beforehand, you're just dumping stuff on the floor. And now you've got to set up this system where you've got three different laundry baskets, and people have to sort them into the three different colours before they go in the wash and, and you've talked to workloads the dried and how they put away. And with ADHD, sometimes when you're doing particularly boring routine tasks, it's difficult to maintain them. So maybe what happens is that people are still dumping their stuff on the floor and their bedroom, instead of putting it into the three zones. And they're not really that bits not working. So then the tendency sometimes with ADHD is to just think, Oh, I had this system, and it's not really working. And so we'll just go back to how it was before, which was chaos. And as I was explaining last time, you take a more scientific approach, and you say, right, well, which bit wasn't working, you know how, let's, let's have a look at that. And let's go a little bit deeper, what was making it difficult for that person. So if you've said to them, you've got to take stuff downstairs and put it in these three different sources. For some people that might work really well, and then might be quite motivated to do that. But for other people, that might be more of a challenge. So it might be that you decide instead of making it so difficult that I have to take stuff downstairs, in fact, although all a child needs to do is put it in their basket in their room, and then we'll either sort it all together on a weekend, or maybe the mother or the father takes responsibility for doing the cloud sorting. So in other words, you haven't ditched the whole process, what you've done is you've looked to analyse what was too difficult, and you've made it as easy as possible, and so that you can have success because everyone benefits from something working in the end.

Ingrid  21:50  
Yeah, yeah. And I think as well, before you change tech completely think about what is working before you kind of throw the whole system overboard, what is working, and what indeed needs some tweaking and what to make it easier for everybody and everybody can kind of follow. Follow the path, instead of going, we're going to do a completely different system. And I see that a lot in paperwork with clients paperwork systems. So it might be that they're like, Okay, well, I don't like the filing cabinet. Because it doesn't work at all, I want to switch completely to lever arch files. And I'm like, is the problem actually the filing cabinet issue just because the filing cabinet is so full, you haven't had time to clear out any of the files, that it's just a matter of clearing out the filing cabinet before we kind of start from scratch and have to do it all again? Or do we just can we just work on the files, put everything back in order and then see how it works? And then we find out it doesn't work? Then we might have to short the whole system over?

Sarah  22:50  
Yeah. And I think for people with ADHD, it's often really helpful to think about yourself and think, you know, when when did I succeed at decluttering? For example. So what when was the last time that I had a really successful Declutter? And what made that successful? So you know, instead of looking around you and saying, Oh, my goodness, I'm full of clutter, this just feels overwhelming. I don't know where to start. Instead, you think back to the last time you did class, and you had a really good declutter three years ago, it doesn't matter. It's all built up since then, how did that success work? So, for example, it might be that you had a really good friend round who isn't judgmental, and you work together. And that was really motivating. Or it might be that you had a deadline approaching. So you had a mother in law coming to stay. And that was the real reason why that worked so successfully, because you had that kind of external motivator of somebody coming around. And if you can apply that, then the learning is that you learn that you're motivated by other people. So maybe you just organised for a friend to come around again. Or sometimes I encourage clients to organise a dinner party. And I say to them, well, that will give you a bit of a deadline that will give me something to work towards, which will motivate you to keep on track and make it happen. So if that's what makes you tick, then use that success and learn from that success to motivate you for the future. Because with ADHD, it's all about finding out what motivates you what makes you tick, what what excites you and energises you.

Ingrid  24:25  
So how do you then get started? Sarah? What what's important?

Sarah  24:30  
Yeah, so So I think there's a number of different principles here. So obviously, if it's something you've been putting off, and it's not very appealing, so let's take for example, a tax return or some sort of boring admin tasks like that, that you've got to do that's quite complex, and you've been putting off ranges. So often, I'll say to people, what's the very, very, very first thing you need to do? And because when you look at the whole task, it just feels overwhelming and you dreaded, you start off with a sense of dread. Whereas maybe the very, very first task you need to do is gather all of your receipts together in one top. And that's, that's the very first thing, you've got them scattered around the house, they say, Okay, let's just bring everything, put it in that one tub task number one, that feels manageable, right. Whereas if I say to you have to do your tax return, that doesn't feel manageable. So, so breaking it down can work really well, and identifying what the very next task is, rather than right, you don't need to write down every single task, because that's overwhelming, you just need to think what's the very next task I need to do? Being accountable to other people we've already talked about, you might also want to find some way of rewarding yourself. So So for example, to combine this one with being accountable, you might go on to Facebook and tell everyone I'm doing my tax return today. If I get it done, I'm gonna go out to the cinema tonight with my friend or my partner or whatever, that's my reward. You've made yourself accountable to social media appeals, or you might just ring up a friend and tell them, you've also given yourself a reward to work towards. So that's really worth thinking about. And the final top tip I'd give you is to consider trying to use a timer exploring the use of a timeout. And this can be really valuable. So say, for example, you've got to sort through all those receipts before you work out what your expenses are, the idea of just finishing the job might feel overwhelming. But if you say to yourself write every day, I'm just going to do 10 or 20 minutes of sorting through my receipts. And what you do is you set a timer, when that timer goes off, you stop doing the task, and then you can put the task away until the next time you work on it the next day, 10 minutes a day across the week, I can't do the math in my head. But yeah, basically, you've done a lot of time on a task that you've been dreading. So again, that's breaking down the task, but it's using the timer, which can be quite motivating. Because you're you're just giving yourself permission to just do 10 minutes. And there's these great gadgets called called time time as which show a really clear visual display of how much time we've got left on a task so they can be quite motivating to. Another thing to mention on time is to consider using analogue clocks or watches. So they're blocks with hands, rather than digital clocks. And the reason for that is because a digital clock will only ever tell you the moment that you're in right now. Whereas an analogue clock gives you the whole context, it gives you the whole picture. And that's really helpful for people with ADHD to be able to say, Oh, I've got three calls for an hour before I've got to get the kids to school. It's actually it actually has been shown to work much better for people with ADHD.

Ingrid  27:51  
Very good sherif. Because in the end, and that's why I love your quote as well on your top tip sheet Done is better than perfect. You know, this is not about perfection. And this is not about perfect homes. But it is about being so happy that you've accomplished something that you didn't know you could do. And it doesn't have to be perfect. being organised and declutter is not about perfection. It's about being able to find your stuff when you need it.

Sarah  28:19  
I mean, in the end, this is all about just living a simpler, more enjoyable life. It's not about having a more organised home, it's about what having a more organised home allows you to get on with. And if you're, you're living in a very chaotic home, then it's a high level of stress. And it just takes up too much time. You know how housework is completely boring. I'm going to put it out. I know you'd like cleaning, but I'm more on the housework is boring line. So I'm very sympathetic with my clients. And I'm trying to find ways of making it as simple as possible to help them with that.

Ingrid  28:53  
Sarah, I love I love all the information you've given in this podcast. Is there anything else that you would like to add in before I close this episode? I mean, I've got I think everything that I'm wanting to know I've asked but is there anything else that you want to share with our listeners?

Sarah  29:11  
I think the only thing I'd encourage you to do if you have ADHD is just take a little bit of time to review your home from time to time. So with ADHD, it's really common to just be quite task focused and and think about actions but actually taking the time to step back and look at the whole picture, which is what you do when you work with a professional organiser. taking some time to to acknowledge what's working well and what isn't working well can be a real game changer. So if something's not working, take some time out. Try and analyse like in the ways that we've been talking about today. What might work better for you how can you reduce the obstacles?

Ingrid  29:50  
Yeah, absolutely love that listeners. Have you enjoyed listening to Sarah talk about all these practical tips, ADHD or not? I Think this all these tips are all very, very helpful for people who have quite a lot of clutter in their homes we can really help you towards a hopefully a simpler life with less distractions and with less chaos. So thank you so much for listening in today. We will definitely in the show notes, put Sara's website her details her socials, if you want to follow her if you're interested, if you want to get her 10 Top Tips form. We'll put all of that in the show notes so you can find it. Thank you so much, Sarah, for being on the show. Again, I really, really appreciate it and for you to share all this information with us. Thank you. Absolute pleasure. So listeners. Thanks so much to you for listening. And if you'd like to get more tips and advice, please follow us on social media. We are on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook and we've got a Facebook group, the declutter hub community and we'd love to see you there. If you don't want to miss the next weekly episode. Please subscribe to the clutter help podcast on Apple podcasts, Spotify and Stitcher. And it will pop into your notifications each Friday. If you want to tell us how you feel about the show, leave us a review. We read everything and we'd love to know how you feel about the show and what you like and what we maybe could improve upon. Or maybe you've got a great idea for a topic that we haven't thought about yet. Or I mean, we're only at four episodes. So if you've got a topic you think, Oh, I would love Ingrid and Lesley to chat about that. Let us know. But we'd love to read your reviews. And don't forget a member's area. We have step by step online courses live q&a And a membership community. So check out members dot declutter hub.com for more information. Thanks so much for listening and see you next time.

Outro  31:48  
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Dana K says:

8 May 2020 at 8:55 PM

I loved Sarah’s tips and suggestions. Iam 47 year old who’s ADHD symptoms had become unmanageable with the diminishing levels of estrogen. I’d love more of these tips broken down to particular tasks. I start on one corner and before finishing it , I move to another.
The way I manage washing up dishes is by breaking it into cups, plates, knives,. . . and so on. So similar tips for accomplishing one category or one corner would be great. I find Mari Kondo’s methods don’t work for me, because I’ve acquired enormous quantities of stuff.
Thank you very much for your fantastic efforts. I really enjoy your podcasts and sharing your personal experiences, especially during lock down. I find it particularly comforting to know, that It’s not just me who sleeps more than usual.
Stay safe
Dana

Reply
1. Lesley Spellman says:
  
  10 May 2020 at 8:55 PM
  
  HI Dana, so happy that you enjoyed our podcast with Sarah. She talks so much sense. Keep on going with our podcasts to inspire you and I saw you had already joined our facebook group which is great news. We will help you in any way we can! Best of luck. Lesley x
  
  Reply
Episode 84 – ADHD and Clutter: Effective Decluttering Techniques

Episode 401 – 6 Email Processing Tips to Help You Save Hours and Sanity with Tracy Hoth

Episode 400 – What we’ve said 400 times…and plan to say 400 more

Episode 396 – Why Resilience and Decluttering go hand in hand with Lucy Wooldridge

Episode 395 – Don’t Fade by February – Keep Your Decluttering Momentum High

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