A photograph of a smiling woman wearing a pink top, guest, Clare Kumar discussing highly sensitive people
Episode 166 – Highly Sensitive People with Guest Clare Kumar

Episode 398 – How to maximise storage in your house
Episode 397 – 10 tips you need to teach your kids to tidy
In this podcast Ingrid is talking to Clare Kumar, a Productivity catalyst and Certified Executive Coach who helps professionals achieve sustainable performance - improving productivity and well-being while avoiding exhaustion and burnout. She draws on her superpowers as an HSP (a highly sensitive person) and in this podcast she explains what an HSP is and which challenges they face and how we can work together to make sure HSP’s thrive both at work and at home.
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Transcript of this podcast episode
[00:00:00] Ingrid: Until recently, I had not heard of highly sensitive people. And when I found out that my good friend and fellow professional organiser, Claire Kumar knows a lot about this topic and what it means for someone to be an HSP, it was an easy decision to invite her to the podcast. So let's find out more about highly sensitive people.

[00:00:23] In this podcast,

[00:00:25] Now, today I'm talking to Claire Kumar. She is a productivity catalyst and certified executive coach and Claire helps professionals achieve sustainable performance, improving productivity and well being while avoiding exhaustion and burnout. She draws on her superpowers as a highly sensitive person to be an engaging speaker and a very.

[00:00:51] Effective coach, Claire, I did. You're just my friend. So I just, I'm so grateful that you're here in the podcast, but I want to tell everybody what an amazing person you are and how much you know about this topic. So thank you for being a guest. 

[00:01:06] Clare: Oh, it's my great pleasure. And it's, it's, it's part of my mission now to drive some awareness and understanding, because it was like a big light bulb went off when I realized.

[00:01:16] Oh, I'm not the only one like this. So happy to share. 

[00:01:20] Ingrid: I'm so delighted because I was honest with you before we pressed record. I said, Claire, honestly, highly sensitive people. I actually don't know anything really about it. So I'm really glad we're recording this podcast so we can share your knowledge. We can share your expertise.

[00:01:36] And we hope that there are listeners are going to be here going. That is me or wow, I know somebody like that or wow, I've never heard about this before. This is so interesting. So really nice to talk about this. And I think we need to actually start at the beginning. What is an highly sensitive person?

[00:01:58] Clare: Yeah. It's, it's, well, you might be surprised to know that it affects almost one in five people. So it's out there and it, what it is, it's not a disorder, it's a trait. Just like you might think of someone who's introverted or extroverted. That's a way of showing up in the world that is very common, but just quite different, right?

[00:02:20] So we have different preferences. So high sensitivity affects almost one in five people. It was identified in the mid nineties by Dr. Elaine Aaron. She's a psychologist. Her husband, Art Aaron is a psychologist as well. And he's the person that came up with the. 36 questions you might use to build intimacy with someone.

[00:02:40] He, there are, there are power couple in their eighties, I think now. So they've been around a long time and have a lot of wisdom. So to get to what is a highly sensitive person, this is a trait. So it's basically that you have a highly sensitive. Perceptive, responsive nervous system. And with that nervous system comes some strengths and superpowers, which I'll outline and also some challenges.

[00:03:09] And it's, uh, it's like I said, there's not a disorder. There is something, um. It's called sensory processing disorder, which is something a little bit more extreme where your senses really aren't working optimally and can really compromise your quality of life, but highly sensitive people, which is this trade is also known as sensory processing sensitivity.

[00:03:35] So there's nuance in the words. This is something that you can, once you identify it, you can really step into I can use this to work for me. And here's what I need to do to make sure I take great care of myself and show up in the world. So there is an acronym, an acronym Elaine uses called DOES or DOES, D O E S.

[00:03:58] And it talks about four different. Um, ways of showing up that are really common in highly sensitive people. The first one D stands for depth of processing. So we are the people that will hear something, watch a movie, listen to a speaker, read the news, and we will have to think about it. It's not, we just notice it and we're onto the next thing.

[00:04:23] We are incubating that thought. We may be prone to overthinking and analysis paralysis. So there are ways each of these things shows up as a strength and also can get in your way. So D, depth of processing. That's the first one. O, over stimulation. So you can imagine if your nervous system is on all the time, you're that meerkat, for example, standing on its hind legs.

[00:04:49] The rest of your mob is sleeping, eating, chilling out. You're on high alert, listening, smelling, sensing whether there's a threat. And if you're a human being whose nervous system is always on. You can imagine that's a little tiring. So overstimulation is something that we have to be really careful about.

[00:05:09] And we have to, we need more rest. We need more periods in our day of rest and recovery. Uh, I'll tie this to the superpower, which is in the S of the model shortly, but overstimulation is something we have to be careful about. E is a beautiful one. It's two things. It's emotional reactivity. So we are people that while we're processing this information, our emotions can be triggered and will be quite reactive.

[00:05:37] This can, when it's expressed, be someone who's like I was for many years, mind to mouth is too fast. And I blurred out something and whoop, maybe I shouldn't have. That's happened so many times in my life. I'm still working on that. 

[00:05:51] Ingrid: I'm giggling here. I'm thinking, Oh, this. This sounds a bit close to home.

[00:05:54] That's me. 

[00:05:56] Clare: Right. So yeah, incredibly reactive, right? Really responsive. And the other E that's part of this DOES model is. Highly empathetic. So we are, and this is what makes us wonderful as coaches or caregivers or service providers is that we are highly sensitive to somebody else's experience. And so we will look at someone that needs help.

[00:06:21] So if you're helping people organise. You will, if you have this trait, look at someone that needs help, and you'll be able to tune in to what their struggle might be. You might be able to quickly pick up on what in the environment is impeding their success. So the lid on the laundry hamper, for example, might be just.

[00:06:38] In the way, and you might notice that more quickly. So high empathy is, is really important. And then the S is sensitivity to subtle stimulation. So yes, we're on high alert, but we'll notice the little things. I call them often little big things, hashtag little big things, because it's sometimes something small.

[00:07:01] And it'll have a really profound impact. It'll be a, some little speed bump or internal resistance, why somebody's not doing something. And if we can hone in on what that is, boy, we can unlock incredible potential. And so that's, that's part of why, you know, stepping into coaching is so profound for me. I can use these strengths as a highly sensitive person and channel them to be something that really serves other people.

[00:07:28] Wow. Okay. That was a mouthful. That was a super 

[00:07:31] Ingrid: mouthful. So yeah. No, no, no. Absolutely brilliant. Because I'm suddenly thinking, I do recognize some of these things. So this is going to be an interesting podcast. Maybe I'm being held a mirror up in front of myself. I'm not sure yet. We'll see. We'll see. Um. So you say we, as a, as a highly sensitive person.

[00:07:52] So can I get in conclude you are a high, highly sensitive person yourself? And of course, how did you work that out? I find that very interesting. How did you kind of suddenly thought, wow, this could be me. Did you come across some reading or something or what 

[00:08:08] Clare: happened? Exactly. This is about six, seven years ago now.

[00:08:13] I mean, I was always aware that I had. Challenges with overstimulation, exhaustion, having to, you know, drop my kids at a daycare 20 minutes in one direction, then get back to my house, walk to the subway, go underground for an hour, get to my desk. I was done by the time I got to work, nevermind getting through my day.

[00:08:35] I was exhausted already. And so I always knew that I was. It's hypersensitive to things. I mean, one example is my book club chose a book. The book was, had great reviews, but when I went to buy it, the paper it was printed on was so rough. I'm like, there's no way I can read 500 pages of rough book. So I was like, I'm out.

[00:08:59] I'm, I'll just read the next book. So it's like, it's things like that where you're, or you'll be, you'll notice that the light in the room is. You'll notice that, oh gosh, news stations here in Canada, where I am right now, we have French and English language, right? And so if our politicians switch into French and I'm watching the English channel, they will have a translator come on.

[00:09:22] And what they're doing now is they're running the English track at a low volume underneath. I think while they're doing the French, they're doing the French. See y'all on top. And I have two tracks come in. My brain shuts down if there are two tracks and I'm like, where do you want me to look? Where do you want me to look?

[00:09:37] It's absolutely horrific. So I stumbled upon, and I don't even remember how. There's a, a body of work by Dr. Elaine Aaron who identified the trait and there is a quiz and anybody can take it. It's a free quiz on her website. The site is hsperson. com hsperson. com. 27 questions asking you things about how you sense things and how you might react.

[00:10:07] I answered 23 yeses out of 23 out of 27 questions. And I was like, uh, hold the phone just a minute. What is happening here? This is. Profound to understand that. And so I can show you, I still refer to this all the time. This is the highly sensitive person book written by Elaine Aaron. It came out in 1996.

[00:10:30] Being that now we're in 2021. Yeah. She's published now the 25th anniversary, which I have to pick up the 25th anniversary edition. So if you're looking for the latest one, get the 25th anniversary edition. I think it's got a yellow cover over in North America. I'm not sure in the UK. Um, But it's profound in helping you understand more about this trait and using it to your advantage.

[00:10:54] Ingrid: What we'll do, Claire, I love that quiz. I think a lot of people love a quiz. So I think we should put the link into the show notes. So if you go to declutterhub. com forward slash 166. Uh, you'll find the show notes and of course the audio file of this podcast, but we'll also put in the link. And if you're watching this on YouTube, then go and check out the show notes on the declutterhub.

[00:11:15] com website and then, um, we'll put the link in there. And if I can, I will also maybe see if I can link to the book or something so we can get those 

[00:11:23] Clare: resources. Well, right on her website, hsperson. com, it'll have the book there also. Okay. So yeah, you can see it's Elaine's site and I have so much respect for, for what she's done here.

[00:11:33] So yeah, you can find it all there. 

[00:11:36] Ingrid: Perfect. So you did the quiz, you found out that you had like 23 out of 27 questions answered with yes. So I'm assuming like you were like seeing like angels going, Oh, I have found what how, what I'm like, or was it like a massive light bulb moment 

[00:11:52] Clare: for you? It was this feeling of being understood.

[00:11:55] Yeah. It was the feeling of being understood. And that's why. And so it's interesting, right? So we met several years ago when I was giving a presentation in the UK and I've embedded this topic in my talks for about four years now, talking about high sensitivity, because I think it's important. To get the word out about this because it is so empowering on two levels.

[00:12:19] And uh, the first level is it, it, it's, I hope will, if you're listening to this podcast now and saying, Oh, that could be me. What I, what I wish for you is that you identify what you need and you feel brave enough to ask for it. So it might be from a snoring partner who is disrupting your sleep. You know, or somebody who's watching television when you're trying to do something quietly, would you mind wearing headphones?

[00:12:47] Would you know, there's, there's lots of things we can ask for. Could we dim the lights? If you go into a noisy restaurant and the music is so loud, you have to shout to your dining guest. Can we lower the music, please? I don't want to, I don't want to have to shout. You know, there's all kinds of things if we notice we can ask for.

[00:13:05] So that's the number one big opportunity. The second thing is my big mission is to really encourage people to help create a more tender world for the 20 percent of people who are not only with this high sensitivity trait, but also the people with ADHD. Autism, PTSD, traumatic brain injury after concussion, there is a huge population that actually will benefit from a more tender world.

[00:13:35] And the invitation there is to think as a leader in the workplace, as a designer of a space, as a business owner. Creating a space for someone, what can you do to be more inclusive and not only sort of invite the best from the most, but not sacrifice or marginalize the most coming from some of the best minds that are out there.

[00:14:00] Ingrid: Okay. Feeling very inspired by this. So, Oh, we need to talk more. We need to talk more. So you also, because we, we were talking about preparing this podcast, of course. And, um, you said. We need to talk about neurodiversity as well, Ingrid. So tell me, what would you like to share about 

[00:14:18] Clare: that? So it's an interesting conversation, actually, because the highly sensitive person by many people is included as part of neurodivergent minds.

[00:14:30] There's a great book called The Divergent Mind by Janara Nirenberg that just came out last year, and she includes. The highly sensitive person in that group, along with autism and ADHD and some of these dyspraxia, dyslexia, some of these other disorders, which she challenges the concept of too. But other ways our minds work and.

[00:14:53] Highly sensitive people are definitely in that group. I feel you'll find a lot of some, some groups, especially in the UK that I've been talking to, we're not including highly sensitive people in it. There's a great professor out of Wales, professor Amanda Kirby, and you can find her, she publishes a newsletter on LinkedIn.

[00:15:11] And she just, she writes about neurodiversity quite a bit. And it's interesting because in some of her publications, HSP wasn't there, but her most recent post said. We shouldn't be fighting for inclusivity in this group. We actually need to understand it, I think, as a society. So if we look at something like autism and ADHD, we'll have mass understanding of those terms, and they apply to 2 to 5 percent of the population.

[00:15:39] And I'm talking about 20 percent of the population here, and the awareness is... I would say under 5%. So, so it's just, I think as we, as we strive to be inclusive as people, um, and look at our diversity equity inclusion initiatives. Thinking about neurodivergent minds and the highly sensitive person out there in the way you interact with people, the way you, um, if you're a business owner and the way you share information, the way I'm going to curate a podcast on this to be sensing, thinking about the listener and giving them the best experience.

[00:16:17] All of that comes into a way of being and showing up that is really respectful and inclusive. 

[00:16:23] Ingrid: Wonderful. I love that. I love that so much. So. Let's talk a little bit about the, the challenges and the strengths then that people were highly sensitive have or are challenged by. I would love to know. I would love to know so much more about that.

[00:16:40] Clare: Well, we just referencing think back to that D O E S model. Yeah. And some of the definite strengths were that depth of processing. Is that we're not necessarily, although sometimes with the mind mouth being too fast, um, you know, the first thing that comes to mind comes out the mouth, but this depth of thinking, if we can be more patient as a culture, we can invite these thinkers in and we can get really rich, diverse, more.

[00:17:08] Thought out contributions from this population, right? So that, that thinking, if we're patient for it in a meeting, if we allow for some time, not to just have the first, it's not family feud and the first one to hit the buzzer and give the answer is the one, it's the one who's maybe been pondering. You all get 30 seconds and we're going to see what comes up.

[00:17:29] Richer stuff. Uh, our ability to notice. Is that superpower and I think empathy, especially I've been giving leadership workshops for the past year and a half and the way a leader is required to be effective right now, it requires empathy and we have, we've traditionally not had. Caring and caregiving and nurturing as part of a leadership role, but boy, highly sensitive people are really well equipped to be stand out team leaders and, um, just inspiring connectors because we can build those that build that rapport and connection very deeply and richly.

[00:18:13] Ingrid: I think that is definitely the truth. Um, I think being a leader of a company, if you're a small business owner or a large company, the challenges have are completely different than they were 10, 15, 20 years ago. And of course, now with people working from home, it's, it's, it's completely. Changed all around again, you know, because now people have to make sure that all these hybrid working models that are now starting to exist.

[00:18:41] It's a lot to take in and a lot of people to take into consideration. You can't just have the one model that fits everybody. 

[00:18:51] Clare: Yeah. And it's an interesting point. I mean, I was mentioning the challenges before I had around the regular construct of work and having to commute in and then being in maybe even a dark office in the day.

[00:19:03] I, I, I couldn't do it. I ended up opting out of the corporate world. Um, it was either, I think there's a choice. I put it on my Instagram, um, last week. Is this really a fair choice? Opt out or burn out, and that's really what's on the table, um, for a lot of people. And luckily we, anybody who's highly sensitive will recognize the autonomy that comes from working from home, the flexibility that's inherently there.

[00:19:32] Boy, we can thrive and, and continue to sustain our energy. I mean, in my intro, you said I cultivate sustainable performance. That's my big raison d'etre because if we can continue to give as people. We can continue, continue to be fulfilled and I believe every one of us deserves a fulfilling life. So this is part of this whole thing.

[00:19:53] It's like how many people can be standing in their gifts to give those to the world and not burn out in the process. And so I feel sometimes like I'm on a big. One woman mission. But I know this whole, this whole, you know, experience we've been in has really awoken people to the richness of life that they're like, I want time with my kids.

[00:20:17] I want, I don't want to be working till all hours of the evening. I want a rich life with all the things in it and I can have that now I've tasted it and I'm going to hang on to that. So, so yeah, there's lots of opportunity. Okay, 

[00:20:31] Ingrid: let's go for a quick break and we'll see you soon.

[00:20:34] We're back. Thank you Claire so far for your insightful thoughts that you have. And during the break I was ruminating a little bit about what you said. And it's not only people I think who work from home because I was actually talking to one of my friends during lockdown and she said that her daughter who is in Primary school at the time was actually thriving by being home a lot more and that she really struggled in the classroom with lots of other children, all talking and chatting and doing the thing.

[00:21:06] And actually that she was, when she was at home, she was feeling much better. And The quality of work went up. Her grades went up. She was feeling much better. She was feeling more rested. She wasn't so tired because I think that was around the time when I first heard about your Facebook group and I will definitely going to talk a little bit about that.

[00:21:26] Um, And I kind of pointed my friend in the right direction and I went, wow, I found this Facebook group from my friend Claire and she's all about highly sensitive people. And I suddenly started recognize things that she's saying in the message that you put on a short WhatsApp group about your daughter and you need to check this out.

[00:21:44] So it's not only adults, is it? It's 

[00:21:47] Clare: not, it's absolutely, it's genetic. So it's, it's going to be something that emerges from birth. You're going to be wired this way. And so the sooner we can understand it and be understood and have that optimal environment, it's so, so, so 

[00:22:02] Ingrid: powerful. Yeah. Yeah. So tell us about your Facebook group, Claire, because I think people who are interested in this, in this topic could really benefit from joining your 

[00:22:10] Clare: group.

[00:22:11] Oh, thank you. Ingrid. It's, it's called the happy space pod and to find it, it's a Facebook group, but to get there easily, happy space pod. com. We'll take you right there. And the idea of this group is to be a supportive place for highly sensitive people who are interested in. Greater productivity and wellbeing, and the two are so tied together.

[00:22:38] You can't have great productivity without great wellbeing. So we have to take care of ourselves to be able to, to show up and to be able to offer those gifts to the world. So it's all content and not just content for me. This is an invitation to be part of a group, which is like your group. You help each other.

[00:22:56] It's supportive. It's a positive place. There is, it's a place to look forward to where we share. We can share struggles and we can work through things, but we're also sharing those little big things that we notice and just invite support exploration all around this theme of high sensitivity with the notion of creating that rich, fulfilling life.

[00:23:19] Ingrid: Lovely. Lovely. So definitely check that out. I can really recommend it. I dip in every once in a while and I think, Oh, what's got Claire going on? So really well worth if you are interested in this topic. So, okay. So we've got a bit of an idea about highly sensitive people. The challenge is strength. We talked about does, and let's now connect it to decluttering and organising because of course this is a decluttering and organising podcast.

[00:23:47] If you are a highly sensitive person and you've now realized by listening to this, what can they do themselves in their own lives when they look at the decluttering and organising? 

[00:24:00] Clare: Well, if you think first off around your environment and the visual stimulation it provides, if you're highly sensitive like me, you might have been naturally motivated to create order to kind of dial down that visual noise in the space.

[00:24:19] You might feel much more calm with, this is an example of what I would do. I remember I went to university, I was. 17 when I went and I had clothes in my closet, I had colored hangers and I thought, Oh, I can dial down the noise a little bit by matching the blue shirt to the blue hanger. So it's things like putting your money in.

[00:24:41] So it might sound a little like OCD. I realized when I'm describing it. But it's the idea is you're, you're making a calm or visually calmer world for yourself. And so that pertains to the physical space. It also pertains to our calendars and it's about having enough breath in the calendar, just the way you need breath in a space to feel good, that it's not overwhelmed, you need breath in your calendar to allow for.

[00:25:11] A nap to recover from sleep to allow for that time of thinking to process difficult news. You need extra time on the end of something to be able to transition to the next thing. And so anybody who's highly sensitive will need to think about how they structure their time and space for themselves and then also how they interact with others.

[00:25:36] Ingrid: Yeah. So does this makes me think. If somebody's now listening to us and thinking, wow, I am possibly highly sensitive person. I'm going to do the quiz. I'm going to do, I'm going to join the group. I'm going to do a little bit of reading. You might not realize actually all the clutter in my house is like so hard for me because All the colors and the mess and the jumbles and nothing in order and the books not being lined up and and and having piles of random stuff everywhere that can really be a trigger of Not being happy, can it's that you think as you're highly sensitive person, you might think, Oh, wow, I actually hadn't realized that all the clutter in my house is actually draining the energy from me.

[00:26:22] Clare: Yeah, because all of those things are having conversations with you, right? They're like, you haven't done me yet. Aren't you going to, aren't you going to pick up the knitting project from 18 years ago? I finally gave my knitting needles away. It's like, you know, so we can really benefit from connecting to the value that it gives us and making time daily.

[00:26:41] Like my restore order time is the morning. I mean, I take care of my cats, I water my plants, I do a little bit of movement and even. Then when I'm restoring order, I incorporate movement into restoring order as sort of a body loving thing to do and prioritize it because I know. Myself, I need good light and I need my best energy to be able to organise.

[00:27:05] It's not something you bring your leftover energy to and think you're going to do a great job. That's a stash and dash approach. And that generally causes further decisions later. So if you realize you'll benefit from it. Think about when in your day you can bring your best energy to creating. It's like paying yourself forward to create the space that you'll be able to then thrive in and have this really powerful day.

[00:27:30] We should probably talk just a little bit about what if everybody in your house isn't highly sensitive and doesn't understand this. 

[00:27:37] Ingrid: Okay. Yeah. 

[00:27:37] Clare: Yeah, please. Right. Yeah. So I, I mean, a number of couples that I worked with who would be. You know, actually it's interesting that in one case, the husband was ordered and meticulous and the wife was like, I don't know how to, I don't know how to give this to him.

[00:27:55] And he's such a wonderful provider for us. I need to learn how to make the home somewhere he can come and relax. And I thought it was the most beautiful thing because it's out of that spirit of generosity. And wanting to create an environment in which each family member thrives that I really encourage.

[00:28:16] The people who might not be highly sensitive to try and understand the experience of those who are sensitive and the one trick that really has been useful. Is to think about, you know, think, ask the person who's not bothered by the clutter to think of. The music genre, they 

[00:28:37] Ingrid: really like the least, 

[00:28:40] Clare: right?

[00:28:41] So there's usually, it could be opera, it could be rap, it could be country, whatever is like the, Oh, don't put that on. I just, I don't respond to that music. Imagine that music is on a boom box on your shoulder cranked, right? That's the effect of clutter. On someone who's sensitive, it's like, I can't dial it down.

[00:29:03] I can't dial it down. I need to, I need to turn it, turn it down. And the only way to turn it down is to restore some order, to put things behind closed doors, to create some construct of dialing that down. And that analogy has been really powerful because I will suggest that in any shared space, we ought to be designing for the most sensitive users of that space.

[00:29:27] Okay. That's a real profound thing to get everybody to buy into. Your individual space, go to town, make it yours, have it as much abundance and things around that you want. Our preferences are very personal of the environment in which we thrive. But if you have a shared space, this is why kindergarten classrooms work.

[00:29:49] Everything has a place. It's well labeled. It's designed to work for the whole class. So that's something we can bring to our homes and say, yeah, I need this home to work for everybody. What, how can I make this comfortable for you? 

[00:30:03] Ingrid: Yeah. And you already touched upon, it's not only the space, it's also the diary, isn't it?

[00:30:08] It's the calendar, all the activities that you put into your day. You need to have time for a breather. There needs to be time to be able to think about something. And we are, I think now also conditioned to cram as much in as we can, because we Want to be busy, are busy, feel busy, but we never take the time anymore to just kind of go, this has been a really hard day.

[00:30:36] I need to just, I need to have time in my diary to, to, to process all of these thoughts and these emotions and what's going on in my life. 

[00:30:45] Clare: Exactly. And even to recover from the night, which was challenged by sleep, by a fire alarm, by howling winds, by a pet, whatever it is, we need rest and recovery built in our day as highly sensitive people.

[00:30:58] It is essential to build that into your calendar. And if you're parenting someone highly sensitive or partnered with highly sense, someone who's highly sensitive. You need to think about accommodating that time and giving them that recovery and not assuming that people think and act and want to structure and schedule the way we do.

[00:31:19] Yeah. Um, 

[00:31:20] Ingrid: I would love some more examples because I think examples always, I mean, you talked about the pages of the book or that the. Paper was too rough. I mean, somebody might be rolling their eyes now going, come on, but I can imagine that I have it with, um, with very loud when a noise is in the wrong place.

[00:31:40] I'm like, I can't, can't do the background noise. The, the, the, so what else can you give us some other examples because I find it so interesting. 

[00:31:49] Clare: Sure, I think about parallel parking, right? If I'm going to parallel park a car, there is no more radio happening because I cannot take a weather forecast or a trend like something and do all the things that need to be done to get that car safely in its spot.

[00:32:03] Right. Um, I, I used to drive with my kids and if the driving was going, I noticed it was, you know, a left turn into crazy busy traffic with no traffic light, I'd say tricky driving and they would know to be instantly quiet. Because they knew mom needed like, that was my, not the only the radio off kids off in the back too, because I needed to be able to use my brain and I, I can't.

[00:32:29] And so, um, gosh, it's, it's lighting as well. I've, uh, and I, from other groups about highly sensitive people, if you're really interested in this search, Facebook, there are, there are some other groups out there too, with like 40, 000 people in them. And so I've had a. A richer understanding of not only my experience, but I know, for example, lighting is really.

[00:32:50] Something to pay attention to. So the color temperature of light should kind of match what's happening in the day outside of you or in your environment. So if you think of lights, they can be often a cold, cold white or a really warm yellow, and you will have seen that are a lot of the led lights that have come into the world are super white.

[00:33:14] And. They work really well in daylight for everybody at night. If you're going to have a white light in your space, maybe you'll be like me and it will trigger a migraine. So it's processed. So my brain can't take it. I have to block it out. I now wear sunglasses if I'm in a. space like that, even driving at night.

[00:33:36] Um, and I will choose my ring lights, have color temperature adjustments. So I can put yellow on at night. I put something called F dot Lux on my computer, which allows me to change the color temperature of my screen to warm it up at night. Not only is it not giving you then that blue light, which suppresses your melatonin, which is.

[00:33:56] Melatonin, which is going to be bad for anybody who wants a good night's sleep. But for highly sensitive people, lighting is something we really can be really, um, thoughtful around and then also even advocate around us. Like my condo has put 4, 000 Kelvin, which is cool. White light daylight, the daylight is 60.

[00:34:19] So it's kind of not intuitive. The lower, the number, the warmer, the higher, the number, the colder daylight is about 6, 500. Um, Calvin, they put 4, 000 in. And if you walk into that space at 11 o'clock at night. Boom! It's like, it's, it's not hospitable. It's not welcome home, come to your lovely space. It's like, boom, it's daylight.

[00:34:42] You want to be on task lighting. It's so lobbying and asking for and creating where you can. The soundscape of the light scape, the clutter scape, all of these things, the textures, the aromas, everything. I 

[00:34:58] Ingrid: was thinking that. Yes. Smell. And probably fresh air and things like that probably count as 

[00:35:03] Clare: well. Your quality.

[00:35:04] Absolutely. All of anything that's going to affect your senses, you want to pay attention to. Absolutely. I mean, even balance our, our sense of balance. You're going to want to pay attention. I don't want to be in the backseat of a car. Because I will be not feeling very well in short order kind of thing.

[00:35:22] So, so it's all of these things. Once you know, you're like, Oh, I can ask to sit in the front seat or I can book the front of the plane or I can book over the wing instead of the back of the bus. Or what, you know, there's all kinds of things we can do once we're armed with taking care of ourselves and taking care of those around us who we might be able to, to do as well, then boy, there's a lot we can do.

[00:35:42] Ingrid: Yeah. And I think that is the perfect way then to close off this, this podcast, because indeed, if you take care of yourself and you feel better, you will get more energy. You will have a sense of wellbeing. You feel more ready to work on the clutter hotspots in your house when you've had a good night's sleep, when you feel rested, when you're not overly stimulated or suffer with migraines a lot.

[00:36:07] So I think it's such a win win when you, when you recognize. That you are possibly a highly sensitive person and there's things that's loads of things you can do about it. So any other closing thoughts from you Claire? Um, 

[00:36:24] Clare: Just yeah, it's those two pieces really this this empowerment to ask for what you need.

[00:36:30] Because there are barriers in place and we need to ask, we need to feel like it's okay to ask. I talk about having not only psychologically safe spaces, but neurologically safe spaces. So let's see if we can't create those and influence the, the world to be a more tender place. Yeah. 

[00:36:47] Ingrid: Well, I think that is a fantastic, um, quote.

[00:36:50] Let's work on a more tender world. That's all we can wish for. Thank you, Claire, for being a guest on our 

[00:36:58] Clare: podcast. Oh, I've been looking forward to it for weeks. This has been, it's always wonderful to see you. And, uh, thanks for letting me share this message, which I feel is really important. 

[00:37:08] Ingrid: Yeah. Well, I completely agree with you.

[00:37:10] So I'm glad you're on the barricades fighting this noble cause, because I think so many people benefit from this and listeners. Have you had some really wonderful light bulbs yourself or are you thinking to yourself, wow, maybe my child or my family member or my friend or my partner is somebody who could possibly be a and highly sensitive person.

[00:37:30] I had never looked at it from their point of view. And if this podcast has helped you to have that insight. I think Claire and I have done our job here today. So thank you so much for listening. Thank you again, Claire, and we'll see you next week.
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