A photograph of a man, psychotherapist Stelios Kiosses with Ingrid and Lesley either side of him, all smiling into the camera
Episode 160 – The Power of Talking with Guest Stelios Kiosses

Episode 355 – Your future self will thank you for it – how extra decluttering effort really pays off
Episode 354 – Feeling in control when going through a divorce with Tamsin Caine
In this podcast Ingrid talks to Stelios Kiosses, a psychotherapist and Clinical Lead for Edison Education. He studied at Oxford University, teaches at Harvard University and is also known here in the UK as TV psychologist and presenter for Channel 4’s series The Hoarder Next Door.
And that is how Lesley and Ingrid first heard of Stelios, because we saw him on the tv talking to people who suffer with hoarding disorder. He now has a book out called “The Power of Talking”, so it’s the perfect chance to chat to Stelios on the podcast.
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Transcript of this podcast episode
[00:00:00] Ingrid: We have decluttering royalty on the show today. If you've ever watched the TV program, The Hoarder Next Door, I'm sure you will remember psychologist and presenter Stelios Kiosses.

[00:00:14] In today's episode, I'm talking to Stelios Chiosas, a psychotherapist and clinical lead for Edison Education. He studied at Oxford University, teaches at Harvard University, and is also known here in the UK as TV psychologist and presenter for Channel 4 series, The Hoarder Next Door.

[00:00:35] And that is how Lesley and I first heard of Stelios, because we saw him on the TV talking to people who suffer with hoarding disorder. So welcome, Stelios! 

[00:00:46] Stelios: Thank you so much for having me on your show. It's a great honor, Ingrid, and I've been waiting for this for some time now. Great excitement and anticipation.

[00:00:55] Ingrid: Thank you so much. Well, same here. We are super excited to have you on the show and Lesley and I met you at a professional organisers conference several years ago. And when we saw that you have a new book out, the power of talking, we just immediately reached out and thought we need to have you as a guest on the podcast.

[00:01:13] Stelios: Well, thank you so much. And it's a great honor. You've read my book and, uh, uh, and yeah, I mean, this book has been a great, uh, challenge, uh, but a great reward at the same 

[00:01:23] Ingrid: time. Okay. Now your book is a series of stories. from your therapy room. And I must admit, I loved reading all of the stories. And I'm sometimes thinking, how are these people now?

[00:01:37] I want to know what happens after. 

[00:01:41] Stelios: Well, it's difficult to know because some of them are many years ago. Again, they're composite stories. So there's an element obviously that is true in those stories, but there are composite stories and these people do exist in some shape or form, but it's difficult to know because.

[00:01:55] A lot of clients you might have seen 10, 15 years ago, 20 years ago, uh, some do keep in touch. And I think a lot of them kept in touch after watching my series on television and they were able to get in touch and, and, and perhaps just say how they were. And, um, all of them have been from the ones who've got in touch, been really good and they've been progressing and quite healthy.

[00:02:18] Oh, that 

[00:02:19] Ingrid: sounds amazing. Because yes, we're definitely going to talk a little bit more about the TV program and about hoarding in the second part of this podcast. But I was reading your book, and so many of the stories, and the things you describe, I can really feel they're related to people with clutter.

[00:02:39] So for example, in Garrett's story, you talk about synchronicity. And it really reminded me of The stars aligning things sometimes are meant to be, it's just not a coincidence that sometimes things happen for a reason, right? 

[00:02:58] Stelios: That's correct. And, uh, it's something we all experience. It's not just experienced in a therapy room, but I think as therapists, we tend to, we tend to come across this quite a lot where, you know, obviously in a personal life, you know, you think of a song and then suddenly that song is playing on the radio.

[00:03:13] You know, how does that happen? You know, or you think of someone and then suddenly they send you a text. It happens to all of us. And sometimes, you know, we don't pay attention. There's different theories about it. And I do explain in my book, there's some scientific evidence, but we're not there yet. And I thought it was important to include in one of the case studies because we do come across with our clients, these types of synchronicities or similarities or, or sudden, you know, a coincidence that happened in our lives.

[00:03:42] But if I may just, I just wanted to just explain the title of the book, which I think is really important and ties in, um, consciously and unconsciously with every case study. So the title of the book is obviously the power of talking. Now, the power of talking reveals the power of listening and the power of listening reveals the power of helping.

[00:04:07] And that's the whole book. The whole book is about the power of helping someone to change. And in every case study, this power of change has to do from being repressive to expressive, from repression to expression. So, In every case study or all the clients that we see come with some form of repressed feelings or emotions.

[00:04:33] And our task predominantly as therapists is to change that repression to expression, which is the power of talking. I 

[00:04:41] Ingrid: love it that you say that because I'm actually, it's very funny because I actually love to talk, but I think being a professional organiser, I've also learned to listen. That is not easy for somebody who loves to talk.

[00:04:59] Stelios: And that's why I think, you know, the power of talking also for those who have picked it up, it isn't just talking with your mouth. We have body talk. We use. The word talking in other forms of unconscious ways of communicating. So when I say the power of talking, although most people will relate obviously to the power of talking verbally, there is also talking in silence.

[00:05:24] There's talking in mindfulness, there's talking with our body, there's talking with our unspoken messages. So, so talking isn't just talking with our mouth and you will. You will see those type of different expressions of talking in, in the case that is, you know, we use silence for some clients to express themselves and talk.

[00:05:46] We use imagery, we use different exercises, whether it's from psychodynamic therapy or CBT, all of these are different forms of talking or expressing. Yeah. 

[00:05:58] Ingrid: Yeah. I'm going to actually ask you another question because I think that fits in really well what you just said. Because in John and Alice's story, you.

[00:06:07] wrote about something that's very close to my heart. And that is intuition and God, God feeling. And that is something that has guided me really well over the years. And I've learned to trust it and I've not berated myself when I didn't listen. And it indeed, it didn't work out, but I just went, I'm not going to berate myself.

[00:06:28] I knew I should have listened to my gut feeling. Okay. How am I going to do this? different next time. So it's got feeling something. A lot of people don't trust. 

[00:06:38] Stelios: Yes. And I, and I think, um, the best really, uh, quote for this is when you need, when you reach Sherlock Holmes and Sherlock Holmes says to Watson, you know, Watson, we both see the same things, but I see the details.

[00:06:50] And in a way, that's what intuition is. It isn't something magical. It isn't something, you know, extraordinary. It is an unconscious way of. of picking up the subtleties and interpreting those in an unconscious way and understanding if what we're experiencing or what we're sensing will perhaps put us into danger or there is some kind of caution.

[00:07:14] So, so, and, and each one of us has a variety of strengths and weaknesses in terms of how we use intuition. So, intuition isn't anything magical, it is something that we have, that we are born with. And it is something that. We can develop and make it more effective through listening to our bodies, our minds and the world around us.

[00:07:37] And I think we have to trust our intuition because it's our basic animal primal way of survival. You know, we used to have that instinct even more in tune with us when we used to live in caves. And, you know, 60, 000 years ago plus, you know, we have that intuition for survival mechanism. And sometimes, and the interesting fact that can go with negative thinking, and a lot of people think, well, you know, I want to eliminate negative thinking, and negative thinking is also part of these case studies, and I do explain that negative thinking, you can't really eliminate negative thinking, and I explain why, because negative thinking is an evolutionary theory.

[00:08:15] Um, aspect that we have developed, you know, we have developed this kind of foreseeing danger, you know, we live in a cave and, you know, if there is any danger when I go out of my cave, you know, how am I going to protect myself? So this kind of preoccupation with negativity is also part of who we are, just in case something bad happens to us, of course, what is happening now is that we don't need to be that negative anymore.

[00:08:40] And there's other unconscious influences that don't validate this type of negativity. So. Part of therapy is also controlling and containing those negative thoughts. 

[00:08:50] Ingrid: And in, um, later in the book, you said to get better, you have to ride the wave that comes home. Preparation and understanding are really important, but there is life, light, and hope on what is likely to be a long road to healing.

[00:09:07] And it just resonated with me so much because Lesley and I really see that people who want Declutter and organise their homes. They go on a journey. It's not a project. It's a process. It's a um A road you need to go on a journey need to go on with in the day and and preparation is key So we talk a lot about getting ready to declutter and not just open the cupboard and pull everything out But you need to get yourself mentally emotionally physically Ready to do this 

[00:09:42] Stelios: That's right.

[00:09:42] And you have to prepare yourself on all levels and emotional, physical, and spiritual for some people. Again, it doesn't have to be religious, but in terms of your energy and your spirituality. And I guess, you know, clutter is an extension sometimes of who we are and what our internal world is represented in an unconscious way.

[00:09:59] So, so in each person has different variety and different predispositions to, to deal with that kind of process. That's why. You know, the fear of the unknown is what this process is about is actually, you know, you in your profession, me in my profession, we are maybe two, three or four steps ahead of our clients shining the light in this dark path for them to to be able to walk in the safe path.

[00:10:25] And that's what we do. We don't We don't have the answers. We don't have, we don't do miracles. We, we guide and we, we help that process for somebody to feel empowered and in tune again with who they really are from the, you know, from a broken self to amended self, and that is really, really important, whether we do it through decluttering, through therapy, through any other care, I mean, you know, helping someone grow can be done in many different ways and therapy could be just part of that.

[00:10:56] Ingrid: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. For sure. I love that. That you said, you know, we, we are not miracle workers. And some people do think I come with a Mary Poppins bag and I kind of have a magic wand that I can just go and it's all gone. It's all 

[00:11:12] Stelios: over. 

[00:11:14] Ingrid: It's the same with therapy, isn't it? Just because you are a therapist.

[00:11:18] It's not that you can ask three questions and all the problems are solved. The work has to. 

[00:11:22] Stelios: That's, that's right. And that's why this particular book has been a great challenge because it's transferring or translating what happens in a therapy room for the lay person, for someone who isn't a psychotherapist, not to use too much jargon, but actually, you know, how do you transmit?

[00:11:39] This kind of process, this kind of transformation that happens on a deeper level. How do you put that on a piece of paper? You know, how do you, how can you really convey that in a way where someone can understand this and think, wow, yeah, this isn't just about talking. It's about a million other things that happen, you know, and that, you know, it's not, it's a cooperation.

[00:12:01] You know, the therapist and the client have to work together to succeed in this. And it's, it's a difficult task, but the rewards are. Absolutely incredible. Yeah. 

[00:12:11] Ingrid: Yeah. So many parallels. I see the same thing. I am not, if I work with a client, I'm not going to make the decisions. I'm not going to do the work.

[00:12:22] They need to do the work and I'm there to help and motivate and support and definitely do some of these things that need to happen. 

[00:12:31] Stelios: So maybe what I can add to this, what you just said is something the Stoic philosophers tend to, to, to, to say, and they say it's something, a principle that I've used actually quite a lot in my, in my personal life and in therapy as well, obviously.

[00:12:45] Um, and the Stoics say that when an obstacle is in your way, the obstacle becomes the way. And I think that's one of the most profound sayings really, um, that I've really come across, you know, when an obstacle is in your way. You take that obstacle and the obstacle then becomes the way for you to break through.

[00:13:06] And it's a really interesting way of looking at everyday problems or more deeper problems where you don't ignore those problems. You don't avoid them. You don't repress them. You actually express them and deal with them in a healthy and charming way where you can feel empowered again. And that's the key word, empowerment.

[00:13:26] So the obstacle becomes the way. 

[00:13:29] Ingrid: Can I then go back because I had a question about that I think is perfectly connected to this, because in Garrett's chapter, you also talk about grief. And you say grief is an inevitable part of life, and usually grief resolves itself. It may never entirely fade, but it almost always changes and becomes incorporated into daily life so the grieving person can move on.

[00:13:53] When it doesn't, it's complicated grief or complex grief. And. I see that a lot with people who have clutter, can it, does that make sense that I see that? 

[00:14:05] Stelios: Yes, it makes a lot of sense. And of course, sometimes you have that, that kind of complex grief. You have it also together with complex trauma, PTSD, for example.

[00:14:15] So, um, again, You know, in our experience in our profession, I mean, yours and mine, we do see that kind of grief and trauma to do with loss. You know, it is such a common threat in a lot of the people we see that they have experienced some kind of loss on a deeper level. And sometimes they've experienced multiple losses, which becomes the complicated grief, grief and the complicated traumas and so forth.

[00:14:41] And then of course, this is what we call actor out. You know, these are acting out behaviors in terms of the clutter and the compulsive element to it. So, so I'm picking that. Those layers of trauma, those layers of grief, those layers of, um, you know, deep, deep rooted issues. Um, it's quite a challenging task.

[00:15:02] And again, you know, underneath all, all that clutter, all that hurt is someone who wants to break free, you know, so again, from repression to expression. 

[00:15:14] Ingrid: Very much so. Now, you describe a feeling of overwhelm, and you used the sea as a metaphor, and I would love it if, if, if you can describe that because I thought that was absolutely fantastic.

[00:15:28] Stelios: Yeah, so there's a couple of metaphors with the sea and I think use it also to deal with anxiety, you know, when people, people are anxious. Um, and I think let's, let's just, uh, describe a little bit what anxiety means. Um, on the whole, anxiety means fear of the future. So when you are anxious about something, it's very rarely about the here and now.

[00:15:49] It's always a what ifs. You know, what if this happens, what if that happens? And that's when your anxiety raises. So, so if you misinterpret something, you start predicting. the future in a negative way. So your anxiety rises and we use the metaphor of the sea, for example, as a wave rising. And that's your anxiety.

[00:16:09] Now, most people want to jump off that wave and they don't want to feel the discomfort that anxiety produces, which is the fight or flight response and so forth. And what we encourage clients is to actually stay on that wave, you know, just stay on the tip of the wave. Until the wave will naturally come down sometimes.

[00:16:30] And of course, then what happens is your, your, you, the anxiety will anticipate. So don't jump off early. You know, so we use different techniques, whether it's mindfulness, whether it's cognitive restructuring, we use different techniques depending on a client's susceptibility in terms of how they can work, their age and so forth.

[00:16:48] We use the scene. metaphors like relaxing, for example. So, um, you know, one way of using this is when we say to people that, you know, if you, if you're at a shipwreck and you see land, um, if you try and swim too fast, you're going to sink basically. And, and experts say you just have to float. You just have to harmonize.

[00:17:10] And that's the third principle of use sometimes when we use the fight or flight response. I use the third response, which is called harmonizing. So you can fight You can run away or you can harmonize. And harmonizing is very important. You know, you harmonize, you contain yourself within that particular experience and you let it take it, take you away with it.

[00:17:32] So the pain becomes less and the discomfort usually anticipates, dissipates when that happens. 

[00:17:39] Ingrid: I love that because again, it just made me because you said you need to allow yourself to float instead of riding the ways you don't want to exhaust yourself, since you will not get closer to safety. And it reminded me of so many of our listeners of people in our Facebook group, people who listen to this podcast who go.

[00:17:58] All guns blazing. I'm going to tackle my clutter this weekend because I've had enough and they pull everything out. And two hours later they look around and they go in a complete panic because they're like, what have I done? And they can muster the energy.

[00:18:20] to do something else. And Lesley and I are all about constantly, we say, break it down, make it small, do one thing, one tiny drawer, one item. And this was just such an, and I thought this is exactly what people say. I did it from the pedal and pedal and pedal back to land. And I thought it completely resonated with me.

[00:18:41] Stelios: The more you wrestle. The more you're going to exhaust yourself, the more you're going to drown. Um, now the jargon word that this metaphor came from in therapy is called meta stance. Now a meta stance, which we also use in supervision, is when you take a step back. You know, you don't overreact to an email.

[00:18:58] You don't overreact to a message. You don't overreact to someone saying something. You don't overreact. You take a meta stance. You know, you try and contain yourself or what we call emotional regulation. And the jargon word is metastand. So I take it, I take a step back. That's, that's another way of looking at it where I assess, you know, and I reassess what has happened.

[00:19:20] Um, and I think that gives you just that kind of break where you can actually don't. Overreact. And then most of us will make a mistake if we overreact, if we just go all, you know, all or nothing and react and overreact to a situation, most likely we're going to be disappointed. 

[00:19:39] Ingrid: Yeah, I think so. Listeners, what do you think so far?

[00:19:42] Are you hearing stuff? Are you thinking to yourself? Yes, that's me. I am like that. Oh, wow. What a great insight. I've never thought about it this way.

[00:19:51] Now, Stelios, of course, this podcast. We're definitely going to talk a little bit about horning because of course, as we said earlier, we all know you from the television where you were the psychologist on the next door and and thankfully you also Have one of your chapters in your book about a hoarding disorder.

[00:20:11] And of course, I'm very interested in that. So I really want to spend the second part of the podcast talking about that, because I think it's so important. And the first thing I thought what you say in your book is A hoarding disorder is a mental health condition characterized by a compulsive need to acquire and keep possessions, even when they're not needed or even repulsive.

[00:20:39] That is, that is quite, quite a thing to take 

[00:20:42] Stelios: in, isn't it? It is a, quite a thing to take in. And it's quite a thing when you see it. Um, and when, you know, in a way, I think sometimes as therapists, you, when you actually work with hoarders and you see these kind of insurmountable type of Um, hold and, and some of it quite dangerous, whether it's that animals or animal hoarding, whatever.

[00:21:05] Um, you kind of feel the first instance and you're in a human, you feel a kind of sense of helplessness because you want to help this person so much, but of course you have to just work through that and you have to work through the difficulty and, and again, you know, it's, it's probably the only. mental health disorder that manifests itself so visually than any other mental health disorder, really.

[00:21:28] It's the only one that can affect the person suffering from their environment, the people around them, their family, their neighbors. You have, you know, elements of infestation to fire to it goes on and on and on. And it's just such a complex. And I think, yes, what you just read. encompasses just a small part of how difficult this disorder is, not just from an emotional point of view, but also from a practical, physical, physiological, and so many other aspects that are complex to deal with.

[00:22:05] But not impossible. 

[00:22:07] Ingrid: That's hopeful. 

[00:22:10] Stelios: That's hopeful. It is. It is. And it's and it's actually working as a team. So, you know, having professionals like yourself, having other professional working with us, I think, as a therapist, you need to know your limitations, you know, you can't, you can't really Take the whole project.

[00:22:29] It's impossible for me to do everything. You know, I will focus on the emotional and psychological well being. And then a professional like you will focus on the decluttering. And then maybe we have a psychiatrist who might focus on on the medication. So we have to work as a team if if somebody severely suffering from compulsive hoarding.

[00:22:48] It isn't a one man job, I think. You know, it, it is, it is complex and it will need a more what we call an integrative approach or a multi modal approach to help someone and help them get out of this condition. 

[00:23:00] Ingrid: Yeah. Yeah. I believe so. I believe so as well, because it's indeed in your book, you say it's especially with compulsive hoarders, they really literally create a mess.

[00:23:09] So visible and loud to others that the disorder is extremely difficult, if not impossible to disguise or hide. It can stay hidden for a long time until some sort of. Crisis happens. 

[00:23:22] Stelios: That's right. And that's why I also referred to it as visual noise, you know, the same, same, you know, if you have volume noise, you turn it up, you get deafened with visual noise, you get blind.

[00:23:33] It's just such a, such a huge amount of stuff that it is, it is visual noise. Um, but it's repressed the noise, you know, again, that word repression, you know, and how can we use. How can we get rid of that repression and help the person become resilient, you know, stronger, empowered, because it's years and years of bad habit.

[00:23:54] It isn't just a compulsive hoarding, but it's all the ripple effects that that produces, whether it's sometimes a common characteristics that I've seen is bad nutrition, you know, and that is really a very common characteristic with a lot of compulsive hoarders. They eat expired food. And in fact, when you read my book, you will see that.

[00:24:14] The first encounter of hoarding that I came across was over 25 years ago when I trained in eating disorders when I had my clinical placement at the time, um, I trained in an eating disorder unit and the compulsive hoarding of food. was quite common as a characteristic and symptom of anorexia or bulimia and so forth.

[00:24:36] So, but of course at that time, because it wasn't a classified mental health condition, it was part of an OCD classification. But looking back, that was my first initial experience with working with Compulsive hoarders who have an underlying psychological condition, but also compulsively hoarding food, for example.

[00:24:56] Yeah. 

[00:24:57] Ingrid: Yeah. Because in the past hoarding was usually associated with OCD, wasn't it? But then actually back in 2013. The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. This is a bit of a mouthful, listeners. If we call it the DSM, the fifth edition, DSM number five, now makes a distinction between forms of hoarding associated with the obsessions and compulsive OCD and a separate disordering, hoarding disorder.

[00:25:24] That why was that so important that that was a difference because there is so much overlap. 

[00:25:30] Stelios: It is very important because it can be a distinct mental health condition, you don't have to have the obsessive compulsive element and categorizing everything in one. bundle and stereotyping someone who's a hoarder as OCD was not really appropriate.

[00:25:45] So through research and through some fantastic researchers like Professor Slakowski and other people have done some great work, um, in bringing that to the forefront and abroad as well, obviously, um, you know, it was important. To segregate that and have a clear diagnosis because otherwise you'd be treating the untreatable, you know, if you treat someone who's got hoarding but not OCD and you treat them for OCD, then you're not doing the right treatment.

[00:26:10] So, so it is important to classify that, um, and really distinguish that. Uh, but I think it's ongoing anyway, so we're still, there's still a lot to learn about, uh, the neurological aspects of hoarding. There's a lot of intricacies and a lot of still ongoing research for us to understand better why, why we have this kind of disorder and the ways of, um, perhaps controlling this disorder with different, different ways, whether it's therapy, medication and so forth.

[00:26:39] So it's still ongoing. It isn't, it isn't, we're not there yet. There's still lots of research being undertaken at the moment. 

[00:26:45] Ingrid: Yeah, because I mean, I know this because I I've been in in houses that have a hoard. I've met people who have compulsive hoarding and it's a very serious illness, isn't it? It's, it's, it's sometimes it's a bit described as, Oh, like you say in your book, it's just the cat lady with loads of cats.

[00:27:03] She's got lots of stuff. But it's this very serious illness that people struggle with. And it's very, very complex, isn't it? 

[00:27:11] Stelios: It is extremely complex. And, and, uh, what most people don't realize is that the onset of compulsive hoarding starts in early teens or late teens. Um, I mean, I've had after my program, quite a few referrals with.

[00:27:26] younger hoarders, um, 12, 13, 14 years old, having suffered loss, death, or having experienced something traumatic, they started hoarding. And of course, what happens with parents is they don't, they don't see that as hoarding because they don't, they can't connect that. But I think quite a few of them who've seen my program afterwards realized that.

[00:27:46] What a young child is exhibiting is actually a compulsive hoarding, you know, they collect things, they come back from school, for example, and they will pass a rubbish bin or they will pass a skip and they will bring things back every day. And suddenly the room is full of stuff that they've collected from outside.

[00:28:03] Um, so, so. And I think that's really important to know. It isn't the stereotypical Mr Treibus or, um, you know, the old person with a, with a, with a trolley running around with thousands of bags, you know, it is actually the early onset is, is, is in our teens. So it's really important to be aware of that. 

[00:28:23] Ingrid: Yeah.

[00:28:24] Yeah, for sure. For sure. Because what in the past happened a lot is people thought we're going to help a person who's got a horde in their house. We're going to empty the horde, throw everything in the skip. And then they're cured. No, that's what, that's what that no, but nobody held the reason why they were hoarding and what, what.

[00:28:47] The whole background is what the trauma was. Mm-hmm. . So of course the house got re hoarded again. 

[00:28:53] Stelios: Exactly. And you see that in one of the old episodes of Life of Crime with, uh, Mr. Rebus really who, who put at the forefront these kind of Yeah. Um, shows, especially in this country on hoarding. And, uh, I think there's a point where the council just empties his house and then within a year or two he continues, you know, the hoarding process.

[00:29:09] And I think what's important to bear in mind at this juncture is that when, when you actually declutter, the house or you get, get rid of all the stuff that are hoarders accumulated without their consent or collaboration. They, the research suggests that they will experience the loss of their items, um, in the same way that they would have experienced loss or the death of a loved one.

[00:29:34] And that's how. How emotionally attached they are to their clutter. And it's a word that we use, which is called anthropomorphizing, which is basically the items become almost a human like element in terms of attaching emotions. So that's how powerful the emotional intensity and attachment is to those items.

[00:29:56] So if you, if you get rid of an item or items. And the, the client is not aware of that and you've not collaborated their grief. And I'm talking about grief again, and their loss for that particular item or items is, is so intense and severe that they're being re traumatized. So it's very important when, when we work with hoarders, that we are very gentle, very empathic, and we collaborate with them.

[00:30:23] We don't do things just because, and of course, I understand. You know, for a lot of families who are frustrated and partners, the first and quickest solution is I'm going to get rid of all the stuff, you know, I'm going to clear the hole that doesn't resolve the underlying problems or symptoms and conditions, and a certain it doesn't resolve the mental health aspect.

[00:30:44] In fact, it exacerbates and. It actually revictimize and retraumatizes the, the holding client. 

[00:30:53] Ingrid: So very important. So if you're listening to this and you know somebody, or you've got somebody family member emptying a house. Overnight with a skip and a lot of lot of people involved and not doing anything about the reasons why and that the person is in control is, is actually making things worse, isn't 

[00:31:15] Stelios: it?

[00:31:16] It does. Yes. And I think there's some fantastic resources out there. Probably one of the best one is helpful orders by them. Jasmine Harmon, who, you know, it's incredible resource there. And people, I think it should be the first port of call. for compulsive hoarding. Um, it's a massive, a huge amount of information and, and, and guidance that people can and family members can tap into.

[00:31:39] Um, and I think that's really important, you know, to actually do some research first before you help someone who's close to you who suffers from compulsive hoarding. Yeah. 

[00:31:47] Ingrid: Yeah. Um, you describe, um, compulsive hoarding is a way to communicate feelings such as abandonment, loss, rage, fear, grief, and shame, and people who are compulsive hoarders often speak of an emptiness or void inside.

[00:32:04] Stelios: That's right. That's an interesting, uh, and I tried to put that in a very simple terms. It is a very complicated subject because it comes back to these kind of suppressing my emotions. Um, however much we suppress our emotions and some of our anxieties, they, they want to come out and they're going to come out in some way or another.

[00:32:26] So they're going to come out through, uh, compulsively drinking. Uh, taking drugs, promiscuity, hoarding, whatever it, whatever it is, however we act out our unconscious suppressed emotions. And sometimes, or in most cases, the compulsive hoarding aspect has that element where you, you can see the visible aggression and the visible anxiety and the pain and the, and the grief that is exhibited on these.

[00:32:55] types of hordes that, you know, you kind of, for me anyway, I can get the feeling what may be underneath a pile, what may be, what lies underneath those piles, you know, metaphorically, what traumas and what losses and what, and you can see that in some of my episodes on The Horde Next Door. Um, and again, you know, talking about The Horde Next Door, um, you know, people don't, that the viewers who've seen the program don't really realize The huge amount of work that goes behind the scenes, like in my first series, I filmed almost 800 hours for a four, four hour series and, um, and the support that is given and, uh, and I have to say the production company at the time, 2020 and Channel 4 were extremely ethical, um, extremely supportive, um, really just amazing to work with them at the time was really great and, uh, yeah.

[00:33:48] Uh, and I think there was a lot of support given to, to anybody who was part of the show, but you don't see the amount of work. And a lot of people said to me, well, we don't see how you got from A to B. And of course, what, what is impossible to cramp in those three or four, six weeks of treatment is the intensity of the treatments from EMDR to mindfulness to CBT that these individuals received, of course, it's hours and hours of work to get to some stage of.

[00:34:13] emotional regulation. Um, it doesn't always work. You know, it's not again, like we said before, initially in our show, we're not miracle workers. We facilitate, um, you know, and we try our best to, to help someone move forward and encourage them to fly. 

[00:34:31] Ingrid: Yeah. Yeah. And that is true, isn't it? That's the, the, the TV programs, they only have blocks of five minutes and they have to cram a lot in an hour.

[00:34:41] We, I know how much goes on in the background, but the viewers just think, okay, bish bash bosh, uh, our television and, uh, skip there. Just throw everything away. Team of people. They go to Stelios once or twice and, and all is well in the world. But. It is television and we have to keep that in mind. They can only do The couple of highlights over a period of time, can't they?

[00:35:07] Stelios: That's right. And I understand that. And, you know, I understand it has to be some form of entertainment. But at the same time, it has to be also realistic. And I think as the show progressed, they were more able to show that kind of realistic aspect of therapy and difficulty and resistance. Like I say in my book, you know, resistance always goes the opposite direction, like friction.

[00:35:27] And you have to show that kind of resistance that happens in almost every session with clients, whether it's compulsive thwarting, OCD, panic attacks, and so forth. There's always some kind of resistance and you work with that resistance. You go along with that. Yeah. 

[00:35:41] Ingrid: Now, um, interesting. You said, um, there's actually a difference between clutter and hoarding and hoarding is an accumulation of large number of items, often of little value.

[00:35:52] While clutter is a messy environment, but the home is safe to walk around in. 

[00:35:59] Stelios: Yeah, that's really true. And I think. And I think sometimes I find that, um, you know, for, for some of us who work in this profession and see, um, you know, individuals who suffer from clutter or hoarding and so forth, actually, sometimes they don't know the etymology of the word.

[00:36:16] So, so if you ask someone, well, what does clutter mean? What does the actual word mean? What does it come from? You know, what, what, why do we. Why do we, um, name a pile of stuff that's disorganised, that's cluttered? And I think sometimes it's important to know the root of the words that we use, because it gives a little bit more insight about, um, what it is we're dealing with.

[00:36:38] Like naming a particular disorder or naming a particular... problem, you know, giving it a name and understanding that name can give us a better understanding of what we're dealing with. So clutter, clutter, clutter is actually a word that's been used from the 14th century, believe it or not. And I think initially it was called, um, I'm just trying to remember, I think it was called Um, Clatten or something like that.

[00:37:00] And I think it was used, um, originally to describe a blockage or a clot formed by heaping things on top of each other. And then I think in the 15th century it was used. It was turned into clutter. So, so it is, it is a clear distinction. Clutter, holding, and collecting. Now, you know, most of us, including me, my house does get cluttered, but it doesn't mean I have a compulsive holding problem.

[00:37:32] The hoarding problem is a bit more complicated, a lot more complicated. There's that kind of emotional attachment. Again, people confuse sometimes collectors with hoarders. Again, there's a clear distinction between hoarding, clutter, and collecting. Now, if you're a collector, let's say, I don't know, you have, you collect ornaments, or you collect old computers, or you collect watches, or whatever you collect, um, there isn't that sense of embarrassment, okay?

[00:38:03] Almost all compulsive hoarders are embarrassed. They carry a huge amount of shame, which doesn't necessarily mean You will carry if your house is cluttered. Sometimes you don't care. I've been to some of my colleagues houses or professors and it's cluttered with books, millions of books, but they're not embarrassed about that.

[00:38:20] They're not ashamed. But almost every individual suffers from my compulsive hoarding disorder is embarrassed, is really, is traumatized by the shame and the humiliation and embarrassment the hoard causes. So, that's a clear distinction. Somebody collects doesn't have that. They will exchange things with another collector.

[00:38:42] They'll invite you over to have a look at their collection. They will clear the dust off their collection and so forth. So, they might have millions of things, but it's all, there's a kind of organisation as part of that. The same with clutter. Um, sometimes you can have a cluttered desk, but it could be organised in your head.

[00:38:58] And, But you don't have that emotional pathological attachment that compulsive hoarders have. So that's why it's important to make that clear distinction. However, sometimes with our busy lives, we can have cluttered homes that it's gone too far. We need someone, you know, like yourself, for example, to come and help us because we can't really, you know, I've accumulated too many clothes and so forth.

[00:39:18] So, so I'm not sure, have you seen that? Have you seen that kind of less of less shame with people who've got cluttered than people who've got hoarding? Have you seen that? Yeah. 

[00:39:27] Ingrid: Definitely. Definitely. And, and, um, and sometimes, and sometimes people who have clutter call themselves a hoarder while it's not.

[00:39:38] So the other way around as well. So they call me and say, I've got stuff. I'm such a hoarder and I've got a lot of look. And I'm like, okay, let me just come and have a look. And well, and then it's like, no, you've just got a bit of clutter and things for a reason have gotten out of control because something.

[00:39:53] Recently changes or you just have a busy lifestyle, three kids in four years and all of those things. So it's, it's very interesting and, and, and people who collect items are definitely not always cluttered or hoarders. So they are different things, but sometimes one can morph into the other. 

[00:40:15] Stelios: Yes, they can.

[00:40:17] And sometimes the research suggests that what we call a genetic predisposition. So if you're a collector and there's a history in the family of hoarding, uh, sometimes, uh, adverse life events like the death of someone close to you or losing your job, you can transfer onto from a collector to a compulsive hoarder if you've got that kind of genetic predisposition.

[00:40:39] So there's a higher probability that you will end up being a hoarder through an adverse life event if there's a history of compulsive hoarding in your family. 

[00:40:48] Ingrid: Interesting. I, I, I thought that could possibly be the case because I think when you, um, see very full houses, there's normally the, then when you hear the story, you can hear that in their family, there are several generations who have that as well.

[00:41:08] Stelios: That's right. There's a strong genetic predisposition. There's no doubt about that. But it doesn't, it's not always the main factor, but there is a strong predisposition, a genetic predisposition, definitely, and we see that. However, it doesn't mean that because you are from a family of compulsive orders, you are going to become a compulsive order.

[00:41:27] Exactly. But there is a predisposition, but you could be the other way around. You could become, you know, the opposite. And then I think sometimes what we, um, And I might, I might write that in my, if I do another volume, I might write about, uh, children of hoarders, and I think that's something really neglected, and through my program I've seen more children of hoarders than actually hoarders themselves, um, and we mustn't forget the insurmountable stress, grief, um, anger, shame that family members feel and experience and sometimes as children being brought up in a, in a, in a, with a parent or parents who are compulsive hoarders.

[00:42:10] It's a really traumatizing experience for someone who's lived for 15, 20 years in a house where They had to lie, you know, no sleepovers, no visits, um, you know, they live a lie about finding excuses to, to have someone at their home and so forth. So, so these young children who are now adults have lived a childhood that Um, it's not normal to most young, young children.

[00:42:35] So we have to bear that in mind that it's also, you know, the family members and children of hoarders that actually also need help. Yeah. 

[00:42:45] Ingrid: If you write that book, please come back, Stelios, because I would love to talk to you about that. Um, I would like to finish this podcast with my favorite quote of your book.

[00:42:57] I mean, there were many, I, I normally, I never write. Notes in books, because I'm like, book is kind of like, yeah, you, you read it, but there was so much that there's late. I've got notes. I could stick notes. I've got pencil writing. I've got highlighters. I've got so much good stuff. But my favorite quote was, and it's actually in your final thoughts.

[00:43:17] If you feel shame, let it go. If you feel fear, Let it go. Eventually you become wise enough to realize that you do not want that toxic stuff inside of you. Yeah. It gave me goosebumps. Honestly. I was like, this is exactly, you're talking about the emotions, but I talk about the stuff and I thought. This is the same with houses of stuff, a little stuff or a lot of stuff, you don't want that toxic stuff inside of your house and let it go, let go of that shame, that fear, you are enough, you are enough yourself, you don't need that much and a lot of stuff brings so much Toxicity into a house and you free up your mind and your space and your heart and you can, it brings a calmness and, and that quote just gave me 

[00:44:21] Stelios: goosebumps.

[00:44:22] Exactly. And I, and I think, you know, believe me, believe it or not, that quote took me ages to write because I wanted to work with my publisher, like how do we summarize, you know, in a couple of lines. What all this book is about, it is about letting go of toxic, toxic items, toxic people, toxic feelings, toxic events, toxic, toxic, whatever that may be, that poisons our innermost self and poisons the people around us.

[00:44:50] And of course, it's poison that slowly kills you. And, and letting go. is the power of talking. And the power of talking is the power of listening. The power of listening is changing, you know, so you, you have to listen to yourself when you talk consciously or unconsciously, and then you have to let go in creating that change.

[00:45:11] And it is a powerful metaphor. And I think you're right, you know, it is, it is a powerful way of, of creating change. Both within ourselves and with others around us. Yeah. Let's take a deep breath. 

[00:45:27] Ingrid: Thank you so much, Stelios, for being on this podcast, for sharing your thoughts, for writing such an amazing book.

[00:45:35] I will put all the show notes, uh, we'll put a link to your book in the show notes. We'll put links to your social media so people can follow you. And. Well, we also put in the help for hoarders that you mentioned from Jasmine. We'll put that as well in the show. It's amazing. Yeah. So have a look at declutterhub.

[00:45:53] com forward slash 160. So you can easily find those show notes and details. Stelios, thank you for being here. Thank 

[00:46:02] Stelios: you. It was a great honor and I'm really humbled by your program. It's amazing. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you so 

[00:46:09] Ingrid: much. So listeners, are you inspired or have we given you something to think about after listening to this podcast?

[00:46:18] I can really recommend you having a look at the book. It really, there were so many light bulb moments for me and I've been in a decluttering and organising world just like Lesley for, for, for 12 years. But so many things I thought, Oh, that's so good. That's so good. And the stories are amazing. So definitely check it out.

[00:46:36] If you've enjoyed this podcast or if you think to yourself. This is a podcast that my friend needs to hear or my family member needs to hear. Please share it. You can find the sharing buttons in the show notes, um, details, and then you can share it with others. Please join us in our Facebook group, the Declutter Hub community, because we have such wonderful support.

[00:46:58] It's a very supportive community of people who struggle with clutter as well. So come and hang out with us. And if you don't want to miss the next episode, please subscribe to the Declutter Hub podcast and it will comment your notifications each Friday. So thanks so much for listening and we'll see you next time.
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