A photograph of at smiling Marie Kondo and Ingrid Jansen
Episode 18 – Does the Marie Kondo method work?

Everyone has been talking about Marie Kondo and her new show Tidy Up on Netflix but does the Marie Kondo method work? In this podcast, Lesley and Ingrid share their thoughts on Marie Kondo and her method. January is always the best month of the year to read about all things decluttering and organising. Newspapers and magazines are full of articles with top tips, ways to keep those New Years's resolutions going, how to blogs etc. This year it was blown out of the water by Marie Kondo's new series Tidy Up on Netflix. Every where you look on social media her name keeps coming up, millions of people are trying to fold t-shirts the konmari way and they are asking themselves if items are "sparking joy". With so much publicity we really wanted to share with you out thoughts and determine does the Marie Kondo method work?
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Transcript of this podcast episode
Intro  0:07  
Welcome to today's episode of The Declutter Hub Podcast, your channel for super easy, no nonsense advice on how to declutter and organise your home. Please welcome your host professional organisers, Ingrid Jansen and Lesley Spellman.

Ingrid  0:29  
Hello, and welcome listeners to Episode 18 of the Declutter Hub Podcast. I'm Ingrid and I'm Lesley if you have clutter and want to sort it out, this is to show for you. In today's episode, Lesley and I are talking about Marie Kondo. The one thing everyone is talking about these days is Marie Kondo, and her new series tidying up on Netflix. This Japanese woman has taken the world by storm ever since she wrote her book spark joy, the life changing Magic of Tidying. She has caused controversy with her approach to decluttering books, but has also got millions of people now folding T shirts to Komori way, Lesley and I will be sharing our views on her methodology and what sparks joy for us. So Lesley, what is it about her that is capturing the imagination?

Lesley  1:20  
Well, it's been quite the couple of weeks really, since her show came on Netflix and everyone is talking about it and loving Marie Kondo the show and the methodology. And to me, that's fantastic. If people are interested in decluttering, and motivated to do that on their own, that's got to be a good thing. That's part of our job to motivate other people to do it alone as well, isn't it? I think there's certain things about Marie Kondo that are capturing attention. So first of all, I think as an individual, she's unusual. It's not unusual, but you know, she's different to what people will expect. You know, I think a lot of people when they think about professional organisers, think about somebody who's more like a sort of Supernanny type that's going to come in and dictate everything to you and be quite mean and stuff. And that's absolutely not the case for any professional organiser. But I think that's probably the reputation because I think people find the process scary. And the imagine that the people that are gonna guide you through that process might be scary as well. Marie Kondo is very sweet. She loves joy, she loves dancing around, she's quite cute, she wears little white things. And so I think, from that perspective, she captures attention as an individual. I think that her methodology is a simple framework that people can build around. And so she gives, she breaks things down into a very simple process. And people are latching on to that, we're going to talk a little bit more about whether that process may be a little bit too simplistic for our needs later. But I think in principle, the framework that she suggests is one that people can relate to and understand because it's simple. I think emotionally, she talks about the principle of sparking joy. And I think what she's trying to get across with that is that whenever you touch something that you own, it needs to provoke some kind of positive response. So I think spark joy, again, is a simple concept that you can latch on to and work with. We all know that there are so many more emotions involved in decluttering, than just joy sparking. But again, it's simple, and it's straightforward. And of course, aspirationally, the folding the lovely folding and the beautiful drawers is some something that we all wish that we had, I actually wish that I could do the Marie Kondo build that in my drawers, but I do not. So so. So yeah, so I think there's four things that it's really capturing the attention because it's memorable. I know.

Ingrid  3:41  
I mean, of course, we see a spike every January, you know, when people have New Year's resolutions, and they want to put their best foot forward. And we see you know, a lot of the articles and magazines and things online that are about decluttering and organising. But her show has really taken it to the next level, hasn't it?

Lesley  3:58  
It's no surprise that that came out on the first of January.

Ingrid  4:02  
And listeners, I will definitely admit you I have seen all the episodes. And I'm really happy we're talking about this today, Lesley and let's just then talk about spark joy, and what does that mean? And what are the emotions involved? So spark joy is a lot more than do I like it or not, but she's she explains it to me that you have to hold an item. Look at the item, feel the item and ask yourself, Does this spark joy? Right?

Lesley  4:37  
Yes, she does. And so and I think in principle, there are a lot of items in our home that do do that, that do spark joy, you know, that warm, fuzzy feeling that you get inside, when you see something that you've not seen for 10 years or whatever, a picture from your kids, you know, sentimental items in particular absolutely spark joy. An item of clothing can spark joy because you love the way that you look in it. Yeah, so there are many, many things in our Life that spark joy. But equally, there are many things in our lives that do not spark joy but but that we need for practical reasons. So, you know, a screwdriver, that means that you can fix something doesn't necessarily spark joy, but we need it. And so maybe the spark joy is a little bit simple. I think Marie Kondo in her book explains the principle of things that are be that are useful to you in the home, can spark joy because they are useful, and therefore it's joy sparking. But to me, that's a little bit complex of a process to go through. But equally out there, I think, I think what she's saying is don't have negative things in your life, you know, think about things that are positive, and whether that's useful, or whether you need it, or whether it's something that you absolutely love. So, you know, so yes, it's a simple concept that needs a little bit of expansion, but everything you know, there's no one size fits all, and everything can be changed to your own needs concept.

Ingrid  5:56  
Yeah. Yeah. I completely agree. I think, you know, when something makes you happy, and you're like, oh, yeah, I'm so happy. I found this. This is so great. And I've been looking for this. And yes, you know, so that is completely make sense to say, Okay, this sparks joy, this makes me happy. But with a lot of items, you don't necessarily think oh, yeah, I'm really, this does spark joy or not. It's a bit more complex than that, isn't it?

Lesley  6:23  
I think so. And I think you know, it's interesting, because you're because of the media frenzy that there's been the last few weeks on Marie Kondo. I've been I've done quite a bit of radio this week. So I was on five live, and I was on you and yours on radio for the other day for a phone in. And I think the thing that I took away from the people that were phoning in who were using the Marie Kondo methodology there, which is called the Konmari method, I'm going to talk about what that is, in case any listeners have not understood what that meant, or I don't know what the Americans are. We're going to talk about that in a minute. But I think what they were saying is, well, actually, you know, I do really like it, but I don't do the thinking my clothes for things. So maybe that's for a lot of people. That's maybe a step too far. I mean, I was lucky enough to go to Japan on holiday last year. And so I think going to Japan and understanding the culture and understanding that the respect that they have for things and for people, and for each other makes more sense, the way that Marie Kondo then advocates thanking things. It's part of the Japanese culture. And it's not I'm not saying we're not thankful for things, because we are. But the principle of connecting in that way to a striped t shirt might be a little bit far fetched for us, I think, for many, many of us, not all of us, many of us. Yeah,

Ingrid  7:34  
yeah. I agree with you. I mean, I will not see myself thanking my coach, when I take it off me and hang it up and say, Thank you, Coach, for keeping me warm today. But I am thankful for the things that I have, and that I love to use. And I appreciate that they're in my life. But I don't see myself thinking everything on a daily basis. You know, that would seem strange to me. But I am appreciative of it on what is in my home.

Lesley  8:03  
Yeah. And so, again, I think its take out of that what you will, you know, we're not going to do it exactly in the set in the way that Marie Kondo is suggesting. But perhaps she's you know, I'm sure there's some leeway around there. So you know, it's a good thing to think about being a positive emotional response to something. Okay.

Ingrid  8:20  
So let's then talk about the methodology. What's the order? What's the sequence for in case? You know, people haven't read her book and haven't seen her show? Or want to be have be reminded of her order? What is the order? Because I know it is close. Books, paper, kimono, and sentimental. That's the order in her books. And that's the order also in her show how she does things. So can we talk about that?

Lesley  8:50  
Yeah, I think it's important to say that she advocates that sequence of things for a specific reason. Yeah, I think it's important to explain what kimono is for those who haven't watched the show, so kimono is basically everything else that doesn't fall into those other four categories. So that would be Garriage. Loft, your junk drawer? Yes, your insurance, bathroom, toys, toys. All of those things fall under kimono. So that is a huge, huge category of things. Oh, yeah, we'll just do our kimono today. Well, actually, that's probably six weeks work. But anyway, so there's a sequence that she advocates, and she advocates it for good reason. And the interesting thing for me and I watched a couple more shows last night, because we were doing this today for market research was sometimes I don't think that sequence works well. So if I'm working with somebody, and I know that books is their absolute thing that they're like you are not touching my books and that happens a lot with people absolutely love books off the phone of the person. It may be. I love my clothes so much and I know that's going to be a difficult emotion. I would rather kind of bring people to that point of doing things that are easier first for them emotionally, and then sort of build them up towards doing the things that are more difficult. Yeah, she's certainly, you know, the idea of doing sentimental things at the end of the process is that you know that that's the sensible thing. She's saying sentimental things are going to be hard for everybody. So let's do that at the end. Yeah. And I completely agree with that. I always do sentimental things and photographs and things like that at the end. Yeah. But equally you do come across sentimental things as you are decluttering clothes and as you are decluttering books. And so where is the cross? Where does the it's kind

Ingrid  10:34  
of a grey areas?

Lesley  10:38  
Yeah, and so the sequence, I think, is it's an interesting sequence, I understand it to a point. But I do think there's not a one size fits all, and you should probably use a method that's going to suit you. I think the other thing is that she advocate organising by category, whereas you and I both agree that practicality, logic, time, money, all those things, for most of our clients, and for us in the way that we've always worked in the last 10 years, we would declutter for the most part by room rather than by category. But lots and lots of different reasons. Mainly practical. Yeah,

Ingrid  11:12  
yeah, I agree with you. I think I do work a lot with wardrobes first. So I ended up doing a lot of clothes sometimes as a first session. But I have had clients who absolutely love their clothes, love their accessories, love their shoes, love their purchase. And it's better than to start somewhere else. So then I will choose another room to work with. And I wouldn't necessarily start with clothes. But clothes, of course, are bulky, they are for lots of people an easier category to start with. So then you would start in a wardrobe.

Lesley  11:46  
Yeah. And I think deciding where to start in someone's home is something that certainly forms part of my process. Because while I'm doing a consultation with a client and trying to work out what makes them tick, and where their barriers are, and where their emotions are, and what the practical reasons are, and do they want to you know, do they really want their bedroom to be a sanctuary because that's dragging them down because it's full of clutter, you know. So all those things need to be taken into consideration. Also, you need to think about where you've got most storage that you can free up some storage space, perhaps to move things from other areas of the house. And so I think the the sequence that she advocates for me is a little bit too simplistic and a little bit rigid. Yeah, there was a there was it was a very interesting one in one of the shows that I don't want to cause any spoilers, but I don't think it will spoil things. I don't think hopefully everyone who's listening to this will have watched all the shows anyway. There was a lady the other the other day on a show that I watched who had lost her husband. She did her clothes first. But Marie Kondo wanted her to then leave her late husband, she'd lost her husband a year ago, leave her late husband's clothes to the end, because she considered those to be sentimental items, which is true, which is right, yeah. But the lady was absolutely ready to do her husband's clothes straightaway after hers. Marie Kondo wanted her to move on to books. Yeah, until either sentimental and the other woman kind of kicked back a little bit. And they did in the end, relent. She relented, didn't she. And they did go back to doing her husband's clothes. And so for me, that was very powerful. Because that, that is not about what I want as an organiser on the process that I want. It's absolutely guided by what the client wants. And if that lady who's bereaved and has gone through all that trauma is ready to do her husband's clothes, then that's the time to do them.

Ingrid  13:32  
Yeah. Yeah. I could not agree more with you, Lesley. So we've now spoken about the order and the sequence of the different categories. So let's look at the process and the practicalities of that. So one of the things she does is she piles, all the clothes on a bed, everything in life these jackets on every episode, you can see a massive amount some stacks are a bit bigger mountains than others, but all the clothes on the bed.

Lesley  14:04  
That's everything from your drawers, everything. Yeah, everything that's hung everything that's in the laundry basket, everything needs to go in there. Yeah. Now,

Ingrid  14:12  
to be honest with you, I I'm gonna say this right out. I could not do that. I could do a wardrobe or a chest of drawers, or his bedside table, or linen or you know, not linen because linen is a different category. But clothes. That would be now I could I could not do that. I'm going to fess up to that.

Lesley  14:34  
I completely understand the psychological reason why she's suggesting that people do that. Because what she wants to do to shock people into knowing how much access they've got. Yeah, I do take stuff out one by one one wardrobe at a time because I believe psychologically that once something has come out of a wardrobe, it's a hard decision to put it back in, rather than if you're kind of moving things along and a hanger and taking stuff out. Something Yeah, everything's out. And then so, so I do take things out. But I wouldn't take a whole room worth of stuff out at the same time, mainly because I think people have got expensive clothes and to do that is not being respectful to the clothes and you might get hangers caught and things and cause tears and things. And equally, because for a lot of people that I work with, it would be way, way too overwhelming, and it would probably set them back. And you would think that you need to break that task down into manageable chunks. And if you've got probably hundreds and hundreds of items of clothing that you've got to go through before you get back into bed that night, which is what we're taught that you know, a lot of those houses, that's more work than one day's work to go through. Yes, for sure. Yeah. And so I think that's quite a bold move for me. And it's not something that so I understand it psychologically, but I wouldn't necessarily do it. And I wouldn't suggest that people do it at home. Because you know, not everybody's got eight hours or whatever that it potentially might take to do that. To go through it. You've got to realise kicks in you got to pick your kids up from school you got to get into your bed and

Ingrid  16:06  
cook dinner. Yeah, I completely unlike you, I do it Wardrobe by wardrobe. And of course, if I find clothes that are out of season clothes, I think I would move them around and do that another time. But I think it's better to do with wardrobe my wardrobe and not get everything out. I think it's too overwhelming.

Lesley  16:28  
Yeah. People have definitely said that, you know, and then the phone in the phone in show from the other day people were saying, you know, did that and I just found it way too overwhelming. You know, maybe No, I didn't know what it was. It was on our Facebook group, wasn't it? It was on our Facebook group. There's somebody spoke about that and said, I just found it were too overwhelming. It was sent me back. And that's something that you need to think about.

Ingrid  16:47  
Yeah. All right. So let's move to the next one. Then. Books. That's your next step. I think you know, take everything out when you have one bookcase is very reasonable. But we know people with a lot more

Lesley  17:00  
books. Yeah, there are people a book lovers, you know, quite often have expanded in a nice, big four bedroom, four, four floor home. And there are books when you've got a book lover, you've got a book everywhere. Yeah. And so that might be in the attic. It might be in the loft, it might be in the garage, it might be on every single bookcase and every hallway. And to bring all those books into one place practically, you know, as an organiser, I don't want to be running up and down one room to another. And the chances are, they're going to have to be stored back in those individual locations. Hopefully not in the garage, in boxes or in the loft. But certainly back on the bookcases. So we need to think about the practicalities of life. Can we if we piled up, you know, probably seven or 800 books in the living room? Are we going to be able to you know, how kids going to be able to come home and play. So, you know, everything has got to be thought about from its practical merits? Really?

Ingrid  17:54  
Yeah, I think so too. And, you know, if you are a book lover, you know, we're not forcing anybody to declutter any of their books. I think it's sometimes comes across that you have to get rid of your books. But I think that's not the case.

Lesley  18:11  
I think to be fair, Marie Kondo has taken some bad press this week or last week hasn't shared about about the methodology around books, but I have not taken away from that, that she's dictating to people that they need to get rid of books, I think it's very much a spark joy thing. And if you've got 1000 books, and 900 of them spark joy, then 900 of them should stay. Yeah, unless they are stopping you from living in your home. And that's the issue. Yeah, so people who have books are willing to give over lots of space for those books. And that's absolutely fine. Yeah, your home, your choices, your stuff, your decisions,

Ingrid  18:44  
I think the difference is when you trip over your books, you can't even reach your cooker to make a cup of tea, then it gets kind of problematic, and then you might have to renegotiate, then you probably have to go through your books and kind of go, okay, what are the ones that make me really happy? And which ones would I would read again, et cetera, et cetera. So you can actually live a normal life and not kill yourself tripping over a book or falling over or breaking an arm or something?

Lesley  19:09  
Yeah, so I think, you know, in terms of the methodology, you know, we haven't got all day to talk about this and what we're actually talking about with methodologies talking about decluttering every single room in the house and so we can talk about all of the different things involved in them. I think those two certainly from the show, really, yeah, you know, captured my attention and I wanted to talk about those. Yeah.

Ingrid  19:29  
So let's talk about her next one, then it's paperwork. That's her third thing and she has three different things she either you have to do something with it. You keep it short term, or you keep it long term and I haven't really in the show seen enough about the paperwork. Yeah, it comes across quite simplistic and paperwork. You know, as well as added less the paperwork is one of the most time consuming things to do. Yeah, especially even home office or books or have full disarray. It takes a while to untangle the web. And I don't think you can just say, Okay, if you need a short term, you need a long term or digital to do that. There's much more to it than paperwork.

Lesley  20:11  
I think so. And I'm pretty sure within within her paperwork systems, there will be categorization as well. But I think, yeah, I think that's why it works and why people are clearly you know, sort of really buying into it, because it seems so simple. But actually, when you get down to it, it's not as simple as that, you know, it is you do need more categorization, you do need to be able to put your hand on things. So I think it's quite interesting. But you know, it's simple and people are liking it. And if you can work within those principles, then then you'll be a long way towards it. Yeah, yeah.

Ingrid  20:44  
kimono is the next one. Like you said, it's everything else, which is a bit of a scary thought, I think, because you're talking about kitchens and Understairs cupboards and toys and garages, and she was like, oh, yeah, the next step is kimono. And you're like, Wow, this like 60% of my house. Massive, massive category. And, you know, let's be realistic, a garage can take you know, two full weekends to sort out itself, and you can't do it in the middle of winter, you know, when it's freezing cold.

Lesley  21:15  
Now think it's interesting, read it. And when you watch the show, you know, when you see the amount of days that have been spent on that show, they can kind of bobs up in the corner, day 37 And day 38. That's quite an overwhelming task. And so when I'm working with clients, I never do more than one session a week, because I do, I do find that you need to kind of have a little bit of downtime in between, you can't just keep on going and going and go in because it then becomes. So it's all about overwhelm. All clutter is all about overwhelm. And what we're trying to do is to break things down into manageable chunks. So we take the overwhelm away. And some of this seems quite overwhelming. I mean, I believe there's no way on earth and I know it's a TV show. There is no way on earth, those people have just listened to Marie Kondo come in for their little introduction at the beginning and explaining her methodology, and then done their whole house on their own without any intervention. I'm pretty sure that they've been working one to one with Marie Kondo trained professional organisers. I don't know that, but I'm pretty sure that they have, because the people don't have the motivation to continue on and on and on. And also the time because people gotta go to work. Yeah, yeah. And so, you know, you and I both know that some of those houses, they've been shown on the shows, it's probably three or four weeks worth of work, you know, every day four or five hours a day to get through that. So it's interesting, but it's a TV show. Yeah. for entertainment purposes. Yeah. And it captures attention, which is fantastic. Yeah,

Ingrid  22:40  
yeah. Couldn't agree more. Last step is your sentimental and I think that's one of the things I really liked about Marie Kondo is that she says you need to do sentimental items last, because they're such a tricky category to do. And it's true. And I think when you build up your stamina about decluttering, and your energy about decluttering, it's been easier to tackle this really difficult category, you know, letters from people, postcards, photographs from holidays long gone from people that might have passed away. Just heads up. I know you know it. And I think even within sentimental I think you need to break it down. And you can't just say I want to do all the sentimental I think you have to even then categorise within that category.

Lesley  23:28  
Because again, the sentimental has got so many emotions attached to it that to do that. It's a lot to do in one day, really. But equally you know, that's it's a good thing that this is where the spark joy thing really comes into its own sentimental, you know, absolutely does, because you should definitely be going for quality over quantity in terms of sentimental items. So good on your merry love the sentimental.

Ingrid  23:57  
Can we please talk about another thing that I really like? And that's her folding methods? Yes. I like a lot of her folding methods. And I like I don't like everything. Listeners, I will not roll my socks like sushi. I'm sorry, it that will not happen. I will still build them up. I am sorry. But I really liked the way she folds T shirts. And I've actually done that in my husband's tissue drawer. And it's absolutely fantastic. So having said all of that, I think it depends on what kind of storage you have.

Lesley  24:34  
And I think it depends on what kind of person you know you're commerce you're coming into this with with 20 years in the housekeeping environment as a professional organiser, what your home looks like, absolutely is a driver for you. Yeah, and you will devote time to it because you absolutely believe in it. Yeah, that's not the case for a lot of people. So I think there needs to be an element of reality. So for me and for a lot of my clients, the benefit and the improvement is getting things off the floor or off a chair in your, in your bedroom into a wardrobe. And for me, it's about breaking barriers down and keeping things simple. Yeah. And so folding for a lot of people is going to be a huge barrier. Because you know, I mean, I was doing some folding the other day with a client, probably for I've done it a few times before, but there's only certain clients that I will think that would be able to maintain that system. And I thought the other day that this, this is somebody that's got a beautiful home, would love her jaws to look like that. And so I was like, well, let's give it a go and go through that. So it'll be interesting to see how what that is. And I'll keep in touch with her to see whether or not she has been able to maintain it. Yeah. But the folding is fantastic. It's fantastic. From a space perspective, from an accessibility perspective, you can see exactly what you've got. Yeah. And you know, you can take from that. You don't have to be quite as meticulous. There's other ways of doing things. You can roll things you can you know, things like that doesn't have to be quite as precise, perhaps sometimes as Marie Kondo as methodology. Yeah. But yeah, but I think the folding, again, is something that's really captured people's attention.

Ingrid  26:04  
Yeah. Yeah. Very, very true. So Lesley, we've talked about Marie Kondo about her methodology, her spark joy, her folding, is there anything else you would like to add?

Lesley  26:18  
I think anything that is gets people talking and doing decluttering is a great thing. I think Marie Kondo has done a fantastic job of that. And she has captured the imagination of the whole world and good for her. I just wish that I had a book and a TV show, but I do not. But what we do have, we do things in our way, down way. And so what we also have been trying to do as last few months is build on the declutter hub. What that is, is our way of doing things for people and we are going to break things down so we don't cut we don't organise and declutter, by category we organised by room. And so what we're doing at the moment is building up a library of online courses that will take things down step by step and tell you exactly what you need to do for my years worth of experience. And that's coming soon, isn't it? So we're in the process of writing all our courses at the moment. So as well as the podcasts and the blogs and things like that, that we've got, you're also going to be able to sign into our membership site and get step by step courses, how to do it yourself. So if Marie Kondo is not doing it for you come to the declutter hub.

Ingrid  27:19  
Excellent. Well, listeners, that's it for today. Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to us. And if you'd like to get more tips and advice, please follow us on social media. We are an Instagram, Twitter and Facebook and have a lively supportive Facebook group community where we chat all things clutter. We'd love to see you there. If you don't want to miss the next weekly episode, subscribe to the declutter hub podcast on iTunes and Stitcher, and it will pop into your notifications every Friday. See you next time.

Outro  27:56  
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Kea Michelle says:

25 January 2019 at 9:03 PM

I agree with you Lesley… it’s not a one size fits all process and the programme definitely over-simplifies certain aspects of the practice. I can’t wait to do your course and learn more!

Reply
1. Ingrid Jansen says:
  
  27 January 2019 at 9:04 PM
  
  If there is one thing that we have learned over 9 & 10 years of helping clients declutter is that everyone uses their home in a different way and you have to adapt a system that works for them and their lives. Thank you for commenting.
  
  Reply
Episode 18 – Does the Marie Kondo method work?

Episode 312 – 10 clutter hotspots and how to fix them

Episode 311 – How to declutter when everything in your home feels sentimental

Episode 312 – 10 clutter hotspots and how to fix them

Episode 311 – How to declutter when everything in your home feels sentimental

Episode 310 – How to choose what to wear with Jennifer Mackey-Mary

Episode 309 – The evolution from chaotic to calm

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