A photograph of a woman on a beach wrapped up warm, declutter hub member Penelope
Episode 186 – Declutter Hub member Penelope shares her journey

Episode 363 – Before you blame the clutter are you doing these 10 things?
Episode 362 – The Roots of Clutter: How Britain became a nation of stuff with Professor Jane Hamlett
It’s fair to say that Penelope has thrown herself into her decluttering journey with gusto. So much so that her husband has joked that her hobby is decluttering and organising. So in this podcast we are going to chat to Penelope and understand why decluttering has become such a key focus in her life and how it’s helped her.
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Transcript of this podcast episode
[00:00:00] Lesley: Today on the podcast, we are talking to Penelope Hart. Now Penelope's husband has joked that her hobby is decluttering and organising. It's fair to say that she has thrown herself into her decluttering journey with gusto. So today we're going to chat to her and understand why decluttering has become such a key focus in her life.

[00:00:19] And how it's helped her.

[00:00:20] So without further ado, welcome Penelope. 

[00:00:23] Penelope: Hello. How are you? I'm good. Thank you.

[00:00:27] Lesley: Excited to be here. This is your, your debut on a podcast, a podcast guest. Are you excited? I 

[00:00:33] Penelope: am. Yeah. 

[00:00:36] Lesley: So first of all then, I'm completely fascinated. I am completely fascinated by where you live. Now you live in a tiny island in the UK. Tell us a little bit about, because you're obviously from Scotland. We can hear those dulcet Scottish tones, but you live right at the other end of the country in an island.

[00:00:52] How did you come to be there and explain about the island that you live on? 

[00:00:56] Penelope: Um, so I. Um, yeah, as you say, I'm from Scotland, um, from outside Glasgow, um, sort of in towns outside there. And then I lived near Loch Lomond until my late 20s. Um, so I'd met my now husband, but we were, he was originally from Cornwall, and he was living up in Scotland, and we met, and then he got the job on Miles is Silly, which is go down to Cornwall and head out 28 miles, and you hit the islands, and he asked me to move over.

[00:01:28] And I said no and then eight months later after lots of persuasion then I said I'll give it a try and that was 12 years ago. 

[00:01:37] Lesley: Oh lovely, it's quite interesting really because a lot of people who, well all around the world whether they're in the UK or outside of the UK, the two very very beautiful parts of our lovely um country aren't they?

[00:01:48] So Loch Lomond that a lot of people will have heard of and then Cornwall and off the coast of Cornwall. Not many people will have gone to the Isles of Scilly I wouldn't have thought but maybe, maybe, I don't know. How big is it? 

[00:01:59] Penelope: Um, there's a, it's archipelago, so there's several, there's lots, lots of islands, little rocks, but there's five inhabited islands, and I live on the main one, which is about three by two miles long, and sort of all year round population is about two and a half thousand across all of the islands.

[00:02:20] And then tourism's a big, it's the main industry, so in the summer there's a lot of seasonal workers come in and then obviously the visitors in those summer months. So it's the 

[00:02:31] Lesley: summer. Right, I'm guessing that it's completely idyllic. It's 

[00:02:35] Penelope: beautiful, yeah. It is, yeah. It's a lot milder than, it's not, um, it's not tropical, but it's just milder all year round.

[00:02:45] It's much milder and drier than the west coast of Scotland, for a start. 

[00:02:49] Lesley: Yeah, yeah, definitely. And I'm sure there are probably things that you've had to do differently with your decluttering journey based on the fact that you don't have perhaps all the amenities that you would have in the mainland UK.

[00:03:01] Yeah, I think 

[00:03:02] Penelope: one of the... The main things for me is, um, it's very important for me for things to go to useful homes and be used again. Um, and so there's not as many outlets. Um, so you haven't got the range of charity shops and people, you know, to free cycle things too. But I think so far I've done quite well.

[00:03:22] I think on the flip side, because it is harder to get things in, people are kind of willing to take stuff and make do and upcycle and use what they can, you know, because there's. Yeah, it's not easy to go to shops here, basically. 

[00:03:35] Lesley: Exactly, a little bit more tricky. So tell us a little bit about your family situation.

[00:03:40] So you moved there 12 years ago with your husband, and now you've got two gorgeous boys that we see all the time in our forum and the membership. So tell us a little bit about your family situation. 

[00:03:49] Penelope: Um, yeah, so, um, moved over here, um, I'd been here a couple of years when we decided to get married. And then we had our first boy, who's now seven.

[00:03:58] And then we've had our second one, who's just turned four. So, it's just the four of us here, in our little unit. 

[00:04:06] Lesley: So cute, so cute. But with two little boys under the age of seven comes clutter and a lot of us can absolutely relate to that and that's when you joined us in the declutter hub about a year ago I'm saying just short of a 

[00:04:19] Penelope: year.

[00:04:20] Yeah, but I think coming up 10 months, 10 months now I think. 

[00:04:23] Lesley: And you've had the most amazing journey with us which we're going to talk about, but so that people can get a feel for What your home was like before you started your declutter hub journey. Tell us, what did it look like? How did it make you feel?

[00:04:39] What did it look like on a daily basis? 

[00:04:41] Penelope: Um, I think the first word that always comes to is overwhelmed. I just felt overwhelmed. I felt like I was drowning. I've always been a keeper. I've not necessarily been a shopper, but I've always been a keeper. And, um, and I recently said in the forum how I'd moved here all the way from Scotland down, you know, shipped things over.

[00:05:02] I brought scrap paper with me, a big box of scrap paper. And at the time, that seemed like a perfectly reasonable thing to do. So, you know, we are really fortunate. Housing is quite difficult on the islands, but we're really fortunate. We have a lovely two bedroom cottage that was... renovated not long before we moved in and before the children we had a spare room but it was full.

[00:05:27] It wasn't unmanageable but it was full and then as you say the boys come along with all the extra stuff and nothing went out and more stuff came in and I maybe got, no I didn't maybe, I did get caught up in that thing of when you have your first child and thinking you need this and you need that and a lot of it was second hand.

[00:05:50] So in my head that makes it okay to have it because you've not spent a lot of money on it. So then there's more and more came in and then kind of coupled with that. I do struggle with like depression, anxiety, um, I'd had mobility issues during my pregnancy that haven't left. So then that made managing the house a bit more difficult and it just, yeah, it just got on top of me.

[00:06:14] I just couldn't, and I couldn't see my way out of it. 

[00:06:17] Lesley: Right. Okay. So a bit of depression, a bit of anxiety after you'd had the children and All the stuff that comes along with kids, you know, and you're not on your own there. And who, how does anybody know that you don't need all this stuff? Cause you just kind of go along with it, don't you?

[00:06:33] When you have a child and that's all part of the learning. So do you feel now that you have managed to work out what kinds of things that you do need? Do you feel that you've changed? Oh, 

[00:06:44] Penelope: massively. Massively. I think I'd started to have a shift. I mean, I didn't realise how, I hadn't realised how depressed I was and I went to the doctor about something else and she asked a very pertinent question and it just all came out.

[00:07:00] Right. And that was. You know, it was quite a big turning point because I sort of realized, you know, that I wasn't well. And then sort of through that, I started, I came very fixated on the idea that I need to get rid of the stuff. Um, and it was just this sort of general feeling of, I wanted everything gone.

[00:07:19] And I started collecting things together. And I think at one point in our hallway, which is very narrow hallway, we had, um, around 30 boxes of big banana boxes and big laundry bags full of things to go out. But I was trying to get them, I was trying to sell and go to car boot sales and have, um, like driveway sales.

[00:07:42] I was sort of trying to get, I was trying to make it okay that I spent this money and then selling it and justifying not keeping it by selling it. Um, and then not everything sold. So then it was stacked up in various places and I still I just wasn't getting anywhere with it. And then one day I came across your podcast and I, I started listening.

[00:08:07] I felt a bit prickly about bits of it, but I kept on listening. And I think that was my defensiveness. When you have a mirror held up to yourself and you don't like it, 

[00:08:16] Lesley: but 

[00:08:18] Penelope: I kept on, um, you know, I was listening to it and then, you know, something started going to the charity shop that before I'd been trying to sell.

[00:08:26] And then I. I think, I think all of it kind of went that way, and then, and I thought, yeah, I've decluttered, I've done it. And the only thing I hadn't done was my sentimental things, and I was looking at your website and your sentimental course, and I was swithering about that, and then that coincided with you doing your May wardrobe challenge.

[00:08:50] And I thought, I'll give that a go, because then I can kind of test the waters and see what it was like. And it was just like this revelation. But yeah, that I hadn't decluttered properly, and I hadn't changed any of my thinking, and I joined the membership, and yeah, it was just this complete eye opener about how I'd approach things.

[00:09:12] And how I could do it differently and how much better it would be if I did it differently. So I've probably gone off topic there. 

[00:09:18] Lesley: No, you're not going off topic at all. It's really interesting because there's so many things in there that you've mentioned that will resonate with people. So the fact that you consider, you know, it's kind of, I'm okay because I'm a keeper.

[00:09:29] And so in this world, in the, in the world where we're very focused on the environment, sustainability, of course. You know, we want to keep things and not to waste things and, you know, not to be wasteful of things. So that's important. So we, we tell ourselves that that is okay, which is until it's not okay until it becomes too much until it becomes overwhelming.

[00:09:49] You know, you talk about the depression and anxiety and, and then you have this urge to want to get rid of everything because we know subconsciously if we suffer with depression or anxiety. Having a house that's messy or chaotic or has too much stuff in it or is overwhelming is not helping us. And so, you know, it's kind of like, well, you know, so many people say, I just want to throw everything in a skip or I just want to set fire to the whole lot and it will be gone.

[00:10:16] That it's that kind of thing like I know that I want to do it but I have not got the emotional capacity to do it, which is really interesting. And then, you know, that kind of resistance that you had at the beginning because I think we are all like, but they don't understand me, you know, so. There's loads of people who can declutter, but I've got these different issues.

[00:10:36] And actually, of course, everyone is completely unique and has a different take and has a different thing that's led to the, led them to the overwhelm. But ultimately a lot of the emotions that we feel are similar. They may have varying degrees, but they are quite similar. And so it's interesting to tackle those emotions.

[00:10:51] And once you get to the bottom of which emotions it is, it's holding you back. Then it can take you. A long way forward now. So you kind of came into the podcast, you know, dabbled around, which a lot of people do, of course, they, Oh, I'm not sure because people feel it's, you know, it feels like it's such a big job that's going to take over your life.

[00:11:11] So it's a big commitment to come in and say, I'm going to commit.

[00:11:18] So I understand that kind of reluctance to kind of dive in, but once you go in, then you realize you can do it a little bit more one step at a time. And it's not this overwhelming task that we think that it is. Now, again, Penelope, you are one of our star pupils in terms of, you know, we talked about this with Claire a few weeks ago in the podcast and, you know, You're a star pupil for Ingrid and I love that when you follow our teachings to the letter, not that we don't want people to deviate and do their own thing, but it's nice to see that journey unfold and so you, you sort of dived straight into that, and thought I'm going to do what they say which is follow the roadmap I'm going to follow it to the letter, which you've absolutely done so tell us about your journey going through the roadmap, please.

[00:12:02] Penelope: And I think when I first, like first came into it. There was that thought I've decluttered this, this isn't the area that's really bad. And, and as soon as I started the course for the kitchen where you start the roadmap, and I suppose I jumped back. I'm quite rule driven. So if I'm told that This is where you should start, and that's what I'll do.

[00:12:26] So I started, so I started in the kitchen, but in the back of my head, I didn't, I didn't think it was, it was the worst thing. And I was just amazed at how much came out. And, um, things like, and it's that what's, what it's been for me is the emotions and digging behind. Why you're keeping something and what, what, what your real reasons actually are.

[00:12:52] Um, and a lot for me, I've realized this guilt, guilt that it's given to me, or it's a waste of money, or yeah, all sorts of things. And we also, we'd accumulated a lot of things. Um, you know, I'd had my house, my husband had had his, we'd come together. The first house we lived in when we moved to the islands.

[00:13:16] was an old lady had lived there and when we moved in the landlord had said take anything you want, you know, anything you don't want give away. I kept it all basically because it was all useful and it was all good and there was no reason not to keep it. So I had, I just had so much stuff and it was really unpicking that why you don't need this number of spoons, you don't need.

[00:13:41] You know, this number of plates we've been given, you know, we're really lucky people have given us lots of lovely wedding gifts and I had a good set of plates and then the everyday set is I'm picking those emotions for me has been the biggest. the biggest learning and that often you and Ingrid talk about the stories that we tell ourselves and I realized a lot of the times I would tell myself stories about why I was keeping things but it wasn't, it wasn't the real reason, um, and there's a lot of guilt, um, why I would keep things if they've been gifts or if it felt wasteful, but really it's, it's, That understanding of what do I want?

[00:14:26] Do I want the space or do I want the stuff? And do I want to have to manage this? Is it really that important to me to have? And I started playing a bit of a game with myself that I would put, maybe what didn't to start with, um, I would get rid of some of it. And then probably genuinely more, I knew more of it could have gone, but I would get rid of that little bit and then think, well, actually, yeah, that's fine.

[00:14:53] And then a little bit more can go. And particularly with the kitchen, I felt that gave me the confidence that nothing really bad happened and I didn't really need it. And I was okay. Like I was making good decisions. Um, absolutely. 

[00:15:09] Lesley: I mean, it's, it's designed in that way, you know, and I think, you know, just jumping back to the beginning where you were talking about the fact that.

[00:15:16] You know, we say, even though you're very rule driven, and I am as well, if someone says to do something, I'm like, okay, that's what I'll do. That's what they say. And so that's a good thing. But you kind of think, why are they telling me to do my kitchen? I almost feel like I'm wasting my time because my kitchen's kind of fine.

[00:15:29] I actually want to do this horrendous room of doom that's been bothering me for years. That's what I really want to tackle because that's the thing that's worrying me the most. But what we're saying is you need to kind of start to learn in rooms that are simpler, you know, and then you kind of build up this decluttering muscle as you go through.

[00:15:46] And then you're absolutely right. You know, you, you, you start off in a room that's not, not, it's not that it's not important. It's very important because it's the hub of the home, but it's got less emotion attached to it. Generally, that's not to say that there's no emotions because actually once you dig into the kitchen, there's loads of emotions in the kitchen as well.

[00:16:02] And you go and you kind of learn. But I know. You've gone through the roadmap very systematically and you get stronger with every room as you go. And now I know that you're on your second pass in the roadmap and we'll talk about that in a minute, but then you can look at the things that you did right at the beginning and think, actually, like you say, that was okay.

[00:16:18] And I can get rid of more, you know, and that's going to serve me. Well, it's not just all about getting rid of stuff, getting rid of stuff, getting rid of stuff. It's all about keeping the right stuff. That's the most important thing. So you went through the whole roadmap. So which room did you find was trickiest?

[00:16:33] Penelope: Um, I found the children's really difficult, and my sort of craft things. And I think the children's, partly because it's not just your stuff so other people have an input, and partly because there's a lot of sentimentality. You know, with everything to do with them, and I'm very sentimental about things.

[00:17:01] And 

[00:17:01] Lesley: there's no problem with the two things that you've highlighted as being most difficult. The emotions are very high you know your craft stuff is something that you absolutely love to do so people are very very low. to, to get rid of anything because they're like, I love this, you know, you have really strong attachments to this stuff because it brings you great joy.

[00:17:18] And of course your children, even more than the craft, bring you even more joy than you craft in sometimes, you know, and so those are the height of emotions and that's why it's most difficult. 

[00:17:30] Penelope: And I think as well with the craft and I've, I've really. I've been aware of this as I've gone through and the concept of aspirational items and that when you when I first heard you guys talking about that, I was just like, Oh my gosh, that's I can see that everywhere.

[00:17:47] Yeah, with the craft items part of my brain says, Oh, when the children are a different stage, I'll do it. And then when I actually came to doing it, to be honest, I didn't do it before I had the children, when I had all the time in the world. And I still struggle. Probably have kept more than I needed to, but it's all learning.

[00:18:08] But yeah, that aspirational aspect of things, and that's everywhere 

[00:18:11] Lesley: throughout the house. Yeah, and I think that's something that we introduce you to more than anywhere else actually in the kitchen. And so that's quite an interesting one because it is a bit of a light bulb that goes on for a lot of people in terms of I'm keeping this for a life that I wish that I had, whether that's healthy eating or juicing or baking or whatever that might be.

[00:18:28] And so it is an interesting and it is a real light bulb moment that goes a lot of. for a lot of people. So would you, would you say that's your biggest light bulb moment, the aspirational side of emotion? 

[00:18:38] Penelope: Oh, um, the aspirational and the, the guilt about keeping 

[00:18:45] Lesley: things right. Okay. 

[00:18:47] Penelope: I'd never associated that that was.

[00:18:50] That that was an emotion with possessions. Right. 

[00:18:55] Lesley: That was, and it takes it, it takes quite a lot of, you know, you can't just, Oh yeah, I've got, I feel guilty and let me fix that overnight. This takes a while, doesn't it? You have to constantly keep chipping away at it as well and that's what you've done so well.

[00:19:07] Now the one thing that That I love about your journey. Then Penelope is that you chronicle it all the way through. So you put pictures in, um, before and afters, during you talk about what you're getting rid of, what you keep in the, why, you know, people you're so inspirational to other people, which is what we love as well.

[00:19:27] But mostly you're doing it for yourself because you, you like the idea of looking back, don't you? It's really important to look and be able to see your own progress because we forget how far we've come sometimes. And that's what you've done really well. Do you want to talk about how that made you feel and whether that's been a useful part of your journey?

[00:19:46] Penelope: It's been incredibly useful. I, in order to, it helps my thinking. So before I start kind of clarifies my thinking. Um, and then as I'm going through it. Yeah, it just helps sort of clarify everything to me about what I'm doing and why I'm doing. And then it is lovely to look back and, and see, you know, if I've said I'm going to do something and I've done it because I'm, I flit a lot.

[00:20:11] Um, I lose interest normally in things and I want to move on to the next shiny thing. So that's one of the, been the really important things to me about the roadmap is it's kept, it's kept me on task and it's kept me focused. When I. And I, I, I do kind of veer off sometimes and then I, I rein myself back in and I find putting on the form saying I'm working on this just now this is what I'm planning to do, and I've done this I haven't done this, why, and sometimes you.

[00:20:43] You know, I could make excuses for myself or tell myself little stories about why I haven't done it. And sometimes I think, I don't want to write that on the forum, and I go and do it. Not that anyone's judging you, but I'm like, oh, I don't want to write that. I want to have done it. 

[00:21:01] Lesley: Yeah, I think, you know, you're, you do our accountability thread every month as well, which is useful, isn't it?

[00:21:07] To say, these are the kinds of things that I want to do. And as you say, no one's judging you. No one's beating you over the head with a stick at the end of the month saying you said you were going to do that Penelope. And you absolutely have not done that. It's more about keeping yourself accountable and saying, this is the kind of things.

[00:21:21] And, and actually sometimes we look at those. those accountability threads and it looks, Ingrid and I keep a check on that and sometimes it looks too much and if we think it looks too big of a task to somebody we will try and not rein them back in again but say have you thought this through is this really achievable because it's important not to demand too much of yourself and to be realistic with those goals as well.

[00:21:43] Penelope: The accountability thread that was the that was the main thing that started me off in the forum and I found that really useful to to think and clarify Clarifying in my head what it was I wanted to do, and then to have that midpoint check in and then the end of the month check in. And I did do it at the beginning, I, I had too many things on there I expected to be able to do too much.

[00:22:09] And in the past I would have become really disheartened, and it would have made me just give up on things. I've, you know, you're Ingrid. And other people have said, Oh, do you, do you think, and then I think I'm getting better. No, I am getting better at knowing is that achievable if not. And sometimes, like last month, I put two things at the end, I thought I may be pushing it, but in my head, I already thought I may be pushing it and I don't feel bad then if I don't do it.

[00:22:41] Yeah, so just bringing that sort of reality into life about what, there's only so many hours in the day, what can you actually, and what's the most important things to spend those. 

[00:22:52] Lesley: So we're going to go to a little break now, um, Penelope. And in a minute, we're going to come back about those hours in your day.

[00:22:57] And how many hours in your day did you spend on your decluttering journey? We'll be back in a minute.

[00:23:02] Now, before the break, I talked about the fact that I wanted to, to quiz Penelope a little bit more about how much time she's actually spent on decluttering over the past sort of nine or 10 months since she's been with us.

[00:23:12] So it seems that you have. It has become your hobby as your husband says you absolutely love decluttering and organising and you are very invested in what you're doing. You've got two little boys, you've got a busy life, you work part time. And so how do you fit this into your day and how much time would you say in a week that you are decluttering and organising?

[00:23:33] Penelope: Um, it's very a lot to do with the different rooms. So when I did the kitchen, then I would do a drawer, a shelf at a time. And at that stage. I was naughty and would maybe start and do too much in not the right time frame and made it hard to tidy up afterwards. Um, but that was more bite sized chunks. I did that room.

[00:23:59] Um, spaces like the bathroom, I took, I would take time out, maybe like half a day. To do that, and then when I got to like the children's toys, so just their toys, not clothes, not books, just toys. I actually, I put my youngest son into childcare for the day. So I agreed with the children that I would go through their toys, put everything to the side that I thought could go, but they could then look at it and see if they wanted to keep it or not, because I want them.

[00:24:33] To learn the skills, I want them to feel happy, not resentful about what's going on. And at the same time, I knew if they were with me, everything would just be getting put in the to keep pile. So, um, it felt easier just to have them out of the house. And so I had six hours to work on their toys and I still wasn't done.

[00:24:53] And then had to do the rest, sort of, in the evenings. Um, the attic space, we've got a small crawl attic space. Again, that was the surf. That was a day, um, and having to sort of ask my husband to, you know, be in charge and feed them. And so I could say to the children, like, go and ask dad. I'm not, I'm not here effectively.

[00:25:16] Um, but I've got better at it. used to cause a little bit of friction because I would want to just spend all my time doing this thing that felt so positive. Um, and you, I get a little bit hyper focused on things. Um, so trying to balance that in, but I think I've got quite good now that I've got routine at the weekends.

[00:25:36] I normally have about an hour each. weekend morning when I work on something and then when we had like the Christmas holiday, that was when I was doing my paper declutter and I'd agreed with my husband beforehand, he was off work, that every morning at this time I would have an hour to work on the paper and I had it set up so it was really easy to get everything out.

[00:25:59] work on it and then put it away at the end. And that worked really well for us. And I had to be disciplined with myself at the end of the hour to stop. Because once you get in a flow, you want to carry on. Um, but it's, it's not fair to the rest of the family. And yeah, so that's been. That's been a learning for me as 

[00:26:17] Lesley: well.

[00:26:18] Do you know what Penelope, I think from what we've seen though, and what you're demonstrating there is that you have been focused on decluttering for the whole of that 10 months in a consistent basis. You've not been working on it every single day. You might have done something once a week, but it's always been Firmly in your mind, you want to do alongside that.

[00:26:36] You've also looked at routines, resets and routines, and you've tried to get those nailed and you know, now that that's not a project, that's just something that you have to do every single day. And so, and there are some times within the forum that we've seen that you are more focused on getting those resets and routines nails rather than the decluttering side of things, which are ultimately they work hand in hand, of course they do, but they.

[00:26:56] They need to be tackled separately. They're a separate thing, really. One's, um, tidying and resets and one's decluttering and different sort of end goal, really. Although they're all involved, they all, they all lend themselves. So, sorry, not really making much sense there. Although they all add to having a fantastic house at the end of the day.

[00:27:16] So would you say now that your house is as you would want it? 

[00:27:21] Penelope: Um, no. Okay. But what I would say is when I started In terms of the decluttering, I'm really happy with where I am. I've got the sentimental items still to do, but they are all boxed, they're contained, they're in their own space. Um, and I'm not, I don't feel ready to tackle them at the moment, and I know that about myself.

[00:27:45] My, my routines, that's where I fall down. Um, but I'm working on it and I would say at the beginning I just felt like I was drowning and I just couldn't see how to get my head above water and now I feel I'm like, I don't know. I'm in a little boat or canoe or something and I can see land and I'm paddling and I'm getting there and it's all going to be okay.

[00:28:11] Lesley: I love that. That's amazing. It's just, it's interesting to explain it in your terms and it's just hard isn't it to bring to life sometimes how people feel about this and it just, you felt like you were drowning and now you feel that you're on that kind of And stretch almost, you know, you're doing that, but it's all about that consistency, Penelope.

[00:28:32] Yeah. All about that constant focus. And it's not surprising then that your husband thinks it's your hobby. Cause it kind of is because You're getting great joy out of it. You're getting great joy about the, the rewards that have come with that. Now, at the beginning of your journey, and you've shared with us in the forum that you feel that perfectionism slowed you down a little bit.

[00:28:50] Do you want to talk about how you feel that you were perfectionist? A lot of people struggle with the idea that somebody with a lot of clutter or with a chaotic home can be perfectionist. And so how do you feel that perfectionist slowed you down and what form did it come in? 

[00:29:05] Penelope: Um, yeah, that was a, a sort of revelation to me joining the membership and having and realizing that about myself was that if I couldn't, if in my mind, if I couldn't do it perfectly straight off, I just wouldn't do it.

[00:29:18] Or if I didn't have time to tidy and sort a room until it was pristine, I wouldn't do it, which is, it's a crazy concept. Um, also I want, I would organise a space in a cupboard and I would want it to be kept exactly like that. And I live with three other people who aren't meticulous and that would really wind me up and then, so I would give up.

[00:29:48] So what's the point? If it's not exactly how I want, what's the point of even doing it? Um, very, well, it feels very silly thinking to me now, but that's, that's how it was thinking. Because that's the way 

[00:30:01] Lesley: that we. That's the way that we want it to be. And so it's interesting just to compare the way that when Ingrid and I are working with clients, one of the biggest things that we need to do is that we need to manage expectations about what that might look like at the end.

[00:30:14] And so our whole job is keeping people insane. If you choose to keep that item, then you're not going to get this vision that you've got in your mind about what you. Room wants to be so managing expectations, it was different because it's a third party involved, but it's the same thing is you might not get there and you need to be happy with the progress that you're making, but chip away at chip away at it and ultimately, it's all about the progress that you're making and not that perfect end goal because that might not suit you and perfectionism is a real problem when it comes to quotes because people just don't get started.

[00:30:45] And so it's interesting that you felt that as well, 

[00:30:48] Penelope: and it's um, it's that compromise when you live with other people. Nope. Yeah, it's been a big learning and accepting that that I can't control everything. I can't have it just so, um, and that's okay. That's okay. And if I, if I can. So with the question, I've been through the rooms once and I'm going back through and tweaking it.

[00:31:12] And again, that's okay. It's this continuous thing and and life changes and what we need changes and and it's never going to be Okay. It's never going to be perfect or done because everything's constantly changing. Things are coming in. People are at different stages and, and just sort of having acceptance with 

[00:31:30] Lesley: that.

[00:31:31] Definitely. And I think that it's very exciting for us to watch you on phase two of the roadmap because what we see is all of the learning that you've had in, in your sort of phase one of the roadmap coming into play. So now you're looking at everything in fresh pair of eyes and thinking, I kept that on the first pass, but now I know that I don't need that.

[00:31:49] And so you're absolutely fine tuning. And the thing is, once you've gone through those mindset changes, which you absolutely have, it's never, ever going to be as bad as it was before. So Penelope, at the beginning of the podcast, you shared with us. And thank you for sharing that, that you had depression and anxiety and that you felt completely overwhelmed with your house.

[00:32:07] So how has that changed now and how do you, what do you think you've learnt about that? 

[00:32:12] Penelope: I've had just a massive change in my thinking and how I feel about the house. Before it used to just feel like everything was shouting at me, demanding my attention, needing to be done, something to be dealt with it.

[00:32:28] And I just. It was just overwhelming and just learning what kind of space I like living in, that I like clear surfaces, that knowing where things are, not running around trying to find things at the last minute, just all those little things, it adds up and when you are struggling it's just an added pressure, but just those simple things of being able to lay your hands on the car keys and your purse when you're walking out the door, having the children's things to hand.

[00:32:58] as and when you need them. It just takes, it just takes that pressure off, um, and knowing that I have a system for things. So there isn't piles of, oh, that needs sorted, or that needs to go out. I've got my donation station. I've got my to do box. It maybe hasn't been done. my to do box but I know where it is.

[00:33:17] My hall basket, I'm just, I'm loving that at the moment that, you know, um, I've got a basket in the hall where things that are in the downstairs that shouldn't be there, like kids pajamas if they've got changed downstairs or something, they get slung in the whole basket and, and it's lovely to be able to say when another member of the family asks where such and such, well if you check the basket and it's there and it's not necessarily where it should be.

[00:33:42] But it, it's got structure and flow to it, if that makes sense. It 

[00:33:46] Lesley: absolutely does, it absolutely does, because I still do that. Because, you know, obviously my house is fairly organised. I've had a basket for 27 years at the bottom of my stairs. And if something's not, I still say... Check the basket, you know, it's the first place because that's probably where it's going to be if it's not in your room or where it should be, it's probably where it's going to talk about the basket because you talked on the forum the other day actually about a stair basket and realizing that you had this stair basket, which is people love and you realized it wasn't fit for purpose.

[00:34:16] Do you want to talk about that? 

[00:34:18] Penelope: Yeah, so I, um, so declutter habit, I'd obviously tried. Inverted commas, lots of things to get myself organised and a lot of it involved, um, if I get this magic thing, it's going to solve all my problems and. You know, without changing my behavior. And the stair basket was one of these things.

[00:34:37] My husband hated it. We've got narrow, windy stairs. So he, he hated it, felt it was dangerous. And it would pile up over the basket, up the stairs. It was really awkward when you go to the room to unload it, because it falls over and everything tips out. It wasn't big enough for the volume of stuff with the kids.

[00:34:58] So I got another one. Um, which didn't solve the problem. A bigger 

[00:35:02] Lesley: one, a bigger, bigger scale. Yeah, 

[00:35:05] Penelope: so then, so then I had two baskets which were overflowing and the stuff going up the stairs. Um, so yeah, I, and I dug my heels in because my husband didn't like them. Um, I'm silly. And... And then people 

[00:35:22] Lesley: are like, yeah, stair baskets and all that, and you're like, oh, maybe that too.

[00:35:27] Maybe my husband's been right all these years. So 

[00:35:29] Penelope: I put them away in the cupboard, because I wasn't quite ready to admit and get rid of them, so I popped them in the cupboard, I put a crate I had at the bottom of the stairs, and after about two days I was like, Yeah, those, those baskets need to go. This is, um, I could lift the crate around the house to tidy up at the end of the day when I was doing a reset.

[00:35:50] It's really easy to carry up the stairs to put stuff away. It was big enough for everything that we need. That realisation that I need to empty this thing every day, it can't be left. Yeah, we just got too much stuff. The children forever pulling stuff around the house. The stairway is clear. It's actually safe to go up and down the stairs.

[00:36:13] Lesley: And the thing is, it's so simple because in our minds, we think a stair basket, and I hope that people understand what we're talking about with that. It's a kind of almost like an L shaped basket, isn't it? That kind of goes up at the stair and then across. It's really hard to explain, but it's like an awkward shape and actually it's not got much space in it.

[00:36:30] And so it sounds like a fantastic idea because if you're the kind of person who's always put stuff on your stairs to take upstairs, you think, actually, I can put that into a basket and it's a great idea. But the problem is simply that the basket is not really fit for purpose because you can't fit that much in it and it's a bit awkward.

[00:36:45] And so that's a barrier, a bottom line is, a stair basket, even though it sounds like a great idea, becomes a barrier that you don't use. Not useful anymore. And so actually if you can get a set, a square basket or a bigger basket or a crate that will serve you much better, but some people haven't got space in their hallway or on their stairs to do that, but I've always had a square one.

[00:37:08] And if it's loads of stuff in, I can put, honestly, if I've got coats downstairs, shoes downstairs, they all go in the basket when I'm ready to take them upon a weekend and took them all in and off they go, but you've got to compromise and work with what you've got in your house, but at least you made that realization and that's the important thing.

[00:37:22] So we're nearly ready. I could talk to you all day about your decluttering journey because it's been so brilliant to watch. What's next for you? So you've talked about sentimental, so is that coming next or have you got anything else that you want to do first? Um, 

[00:37:35] Penelope: so I, I'm really happy, as I say, I'm really happy with what I've decluttered.

[00:37:39] My boys room, I'm sort of been doing the second pass through the different rooms and sort of tweaking things. Um, and my boys room, they're really ready. The youngest one's ready to come out of his toddler bed, so we're looking at getting new furniture for their room, getting some proper shelves and stuff in, and, you know, they're constantly growing and changing, so I'd like to have a go through their things again in sort of preparation for the change to their room.

[00:38:07] My husband has said that he will do the shed at last with me, so that, I wasn't planning that, so I've got to fit, that in now, and I'd like to get that done before the summer, you know, sort of springtime. And the sentimental, and I'm, I'm really, one of my biggest learning things with the Declutter Hub has been the importance of those daily routines.

[00:38:29] I had quite a boom and bust approach to house creeping, sort of all and nothing, and that doesn't, that doesn't work when you have a family of four either. So

[00:38:42] That's, there's a lot of meticulous spam. 

[00:38:43] Lesley: I'm just not sure that that exists. Who's got one of those? And 

[00:38:49] Penelope: the problem is I have a friend who does. So it's really difficult 

[00:38:52] Lesley: because you compare yourself to this. Oh no, that's the way I know it's like, really? Like, yeah, I'm sure there's secrets. I'm sure there's secrets.

[00:39:00] They might be not too bad, but they're definitely not meticulous. That's for sure. 

[00:39:06] Penelope: So that's, so then really working on those daily habits and routines and stuff like that. And again with the, I used to sort of think it was like one day I would decide to do it and it would all be perfect. Um, just accepting that I'm working on it and maybe some days I won't get it right.

[00:39:22] But if I'm getting it right more days than not, I'm always moving forward. And I have little talks to myself in the evening when I maybe just want to crawl into bed and I don't want to finish doing the kitchen reset or getting the bags ready for the next day. And I can say to myself now, you know, it's always better when you do that.

[00:39:41] You know, it's a better morning and a happier morning. And my, my youngest, my eldest son, he, you know, he has struggles going to school and so it's quite, it's quite challenging in the morning getting him out. And if I take that effort at night, then it just makes that morning that bit nicer and it's just having those little talks with 

[00:40:02] Lesley: yourself about.

[00:40:03] Do you know what Penelope, you've taken me right back to the beginning because at the beginning you talked about the fact that we tell ourselves stories. stories that keep us stuck. And that's one of the things that we talk about in the declutter quite a lot. And now 10 months in, you're actually telling yourself more positive stories that there are more good days than bad days.

[00:40:19] That actually, even though you want to do that crawling into bed at night, and we all feel that sometimes you're like, I really, really need to do this. This is a voice inside your head saying, you know, Penelope, that it's going to be better if you do this now and don't crawl into bed. So. The trajectory of those stories has completely changed, hasn't it?

[00:40:35] And it's taking the intro into a really positive place. And I think You know, again, going back to what your husband said right at the beginning that decluttering has become your hobby. I think that what I see, you know, we take away a lot of those negative emotions associated with clutter, guilt, you know, you feel overwhelmed, all of those things, but we don't think so much about the really positive emotions that come with it.

[00:40:58] So really you should be super proud of yourself. And I think there is that as well. I can do this. I've done this, I've worked hard and I'm proud of the house that I'm creating for my family and the environment I'm creating and the positive effects that it's having on myself. And so really look at those positive emotions as well as the negative emotions.

[00:41:17] I think that 

[00:41:18] Penelope: I, I certainly used to, I, I would've always called myself a messy person. Yeah. I'm, I'm untidy, I'm messy, I'm, why can't I do this? Other people are able to run a home. Why can't, you know, and, and I don't do that now. I, I know that I'm working towards it and I'm getting better and, and I feel happier and calmer.

[00:41:39] Um, and I'm a nicer mum, because when you're not running around like a headless chicken then you're calmer and you're more together and you can take that breath and go, it's fine, it's 

[00:41:52] Lesley: fine. I absolutely love it. Me and Ingrid are like proud mums of you Penelope. And so, because we see how much progress you're making and it's just delightful to see how positive something that actually It can be quite straightforward when you break it right down, has on your mental well being and that of your family.

[00:42:13] So thank you so much for being such an inspirational member and for sharing your story with us today. I'm sure there's so much in there that will resonate with a lot of people. So we really, really thank you for doing that. Thank you. So what's happening next week? Now Penelope in the podcast talked about flitting and you're like flitting?

[00:42:31] What's flitting? We've talked about decluttering muscle. We've talked about all kinds of things in this podcast and some of that you might be unfamiliar with the jargon. So next week we are going to be busting through some decluttering jargon that we use here at the declutter hub. So do tune in to listen.

[00:42:46] So thanks so much for listening and we'll see you next time.
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