A photograph is a woman wearing a scarf around her neck - Jasmine Sleigh
Episode 231 – The stories behind hoarding disorder with Jasmine Sleigh

We all have our own ideas and preconceptions about hoarding tendencies and hoarding disorder. But what about the person that lives in a home like that? Today I am talking to Professional Organiser and author, Jasmine Sleigh who has written a book all about the stores behind the hoarding.
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Transcript of this podcast episode
Lesley: We all have our own ideas and preconceptions about hoarding disorder and hoarding tendencies, but what about the person who lives in a home like that? What's their story? Today we are talking to professional organizer and author Jasmine Sleigh, who has written a book called Being Owned, which is all about the stories of the people behind the hoarding.

You are listening to the Declutter Hub podcast, bringing you tried and tested no nonsense tips and advice from the lead in experts in decluttering and organizing your home. Now, here's your host, Lesley Spelman.

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Hello everybody. I am so excited. It's always so nice for me when I can interview a friend. And Jasmine is certainly a friend because we have worked together for, I'm gonna say 10 years. We used to be trainers together for APDO. We have a long history and she's such a lovely, happy, but sensible person. That's what we like about Jasmine, and she's gonna share some of that hopeful happiness and sensible nature today. Welcome, Jasmine.

Jasmine: Thank you, Lesley

Lesley: Happy and sensible. You happy with that?

Jasmine: I'm gonna put that on a t-shirt.

Lesley: I know exactly. So Jasmine, tell people who you actually are. What's your name? Where do you come from, what do you do, and how are you here on this podcast talking about professional organizing?

Jasmine: Yeah, so my name is Jasmine Sleigh, and I run a business down in, Devon, a decluttering business, and have done so for about 10 years and found myself very early on working with people who were in sort of crisis situation, hoarding, or chronically overwhelmed in their homes. And yeah, just took a chance after the decade of working to reflect on, what I do.

And I've recently written a book, sort of reflecting on the client's stories. So yeah, just a chance then to show my face again, come out of my work trousers and, start speaking again about, the fascinating world of decluttering.

Lesley: So you are here obviously to talk about your book, which I've read and I absolutely love for loads and loads of different reasons that we're gonna delve into in a minute. So you said that you typically work in homes that are in crisis situations, so how did you feel that you fell into that rather than standard decluttering?

Was it just something that you fell into? Was it something that you made a conscious choice to do?

Jasmine: I think early doors. I approached the fire and rescue service, when I was sort of newbie declutterer. and I met a manager who had been on site when there'd been, a very serious fire and a terrible tragedy in the local community that. the home was hoarded. and he was really, really encouraged to hear there might be somebody who could work with, with people in making their home safer.

So we did an awful lot of work together, very early doors, which meant that I was going out doing home fire safety visits with fire officers and that was my first sort of foray into sort of going into homes that were very full. What I did find out very quickly is I have quite an unshockable nature. So, I found that the environments didn't really overwhelm me in any way.

I was really interested in what people were capable of doing and changing their environments, even when it was really, you know, there was a lot, there was a long way to go for people, so it fitted me and I was very fortunate early doors to, to have that in through the, the fire service.

Lesley: Nice. And so would you say that most of your work is with people in these types of situations now, or do you do any standard decluttering as well?

Jasmine: It is still a mixture. I would say probably about 70% of our work is public funded, projects where either the housing officers contact us because there might be a risk to their tenancy, because the home is so full or there's, contact from social services if somebody might be at risk of ending up in hospital because they can't make their way around their home safely.

So we get an awful lot of those sort of referrals. But still, I get calls where somebody would say, We've got a garage that needs organizing. Can you and the team come out and do that? And those are lovely projects and every now and again we get it, you know, in a really straightforward moving people, unpacking people.

But still the majority of our work is where, People are very nervous. It's perhaps not been their idea to have a a, a professional organiser in and so we've got a, a, a lot of work to do to build trust and be able to make any changes with their permission.

Lesley: So I have already spoken about homes in crisis situations and standard decluttering as if there is such a thing, Jasmine, but I think we both know what we mean by that. But what do you see and how can you explain to our listeners what you see the differences between a very full home and someone with hoarding disorder?

Jasmine: So you're exactly right. So I have definitely on the one side being sent into homes as a referral where they've said, this person's could you go in and support them to, to make some changes to, to, deescalate risk to their tenancy. And we've gone in and actually they can't make changes quick enough.

We were working with a lady just the other day and there was two of us there, and we would never do this in normal circumstances. And she was, say we were both asking her questions at either of the room, we'd never do that normally. And she was going go, yes, no, that can go, that can, and was really rapid and making it so she'd really wanted to make changes.

She couldn't wait to have us back. And an awful lot is coming out of the, the property. Juxtaposition that against going into homes where there,you know, the person may well have hoarding tendencies or undiagnosed hoarding disorder, and I've yet to work with anyone who's actually got a diagnosis of that, but where clearly there's something much more, serious going on for the person.

And we have, as I've mentioned in the, in the book, seeing people try and, through the contents of the stairs through their fingers when they've been walking on those items for, for over a decade to check there's nothing important that might go out, so it slows the process down considerably. But also you can feel that already, can't you?

That weight of absolutely everything in the home might be special. And, so, worried are they about something going into the bin or in recycling without them checking and double checking that it's not something useful to them. So that's where it, you know, everything slows down considerably. That's what we can feel that nervousness of the person to, to letting anything go.

Lesley: There's a couple of interesting points there that you raised Jasmine and one of them, which really, I'm like, wow, I, I would not have known that. So you are saying that you've never actually worked with a person who's got a clinical diagnosis, of hoarding disorder.

Jasmine: Yeah, I mean, we're still quite a recent thing for this country to have it as a labeled mental health, condition, but still as yet not worked with a single person who's had that formal diagnosis. Many times we go into people's homes. sometimes we're furnished with information care plan, social services might know that they've got a mental health care plan, for example, and there is a formal diagnosis of something, and it can be any number of, of things that people,have. So, you know, we work with people with bipolar PTSD you know, now we've got cognitive processing issues such as ADHD, other things, so they can all go in the mix in terms of telling us that context.

and hoarding can be a byproduct of some of those, conditions. As a standalone, I've not yet met anyone who has that as a standalone disorder. usually it's wrapped up in something else. And of course we do meet plenty of people. Still, the majority of the people we meet have no formal mental health diagnosis at all, but their homes are really full and they really, really struggle to be able to, emotionally let anything come out of the.

Lesley: I think it's really interesting, Jasmine, because I, you know, I've been working with people with hoarded homes then, or very full homes for many, many years and I think. I was, I was never worried about the diagnosis. But even in that 13 years that I've been doing this business, and you are not far behind me, how many years have you been working?

Jasmine: Just 10. Yeah. 10.

Lesley: And so I think that, you know, The understanding of things like ADHD, things like ASD, all of these things, they're more spoken about. And so I think when I first went into homes 13 years ago with somebody who, where it presented then as a home that was lived in by somebody that was hoarding, I would never have discussed that or mentioned that.

And that was never an issue because what we do, and I know that I do what you do cause we've worked together a lot is it's about how that person feels, how that person presents the control that they want to feel and the decisions that they make. And I think that's the important thing, and that's perhaps where it does change over slightly, is that ability to be able to give control over a little bit to somebody else, you know?

And, and that's where somebody who, who is displaying hoarding tendencies won't be able to do that at all until they started to go through that process. I, I'm conscious as well, Jasmine. as I read, read through the whole book, I'm gonna talk a little bit more about the contents of the book in a minute.

There's only one instance that I could see, and I might be wrong, . It might have whizzed past it where you, where you actually use the term hoarding. Now we have used it a few times now because that's something that people can understand that what we're talking about a little bit more. the only time that you talk about hoarding is when you talk about hoarding TV shows, and so you very consciously don't use that terminology.

Can you explain why?

Jasmine: Yeah, I think it is quite a conscious choice. I think there's a lot, lot of reasons for that. One of course, is that there is still a great stigma around the title when people talk, as you said, other mental health disorders and cognitive processing issues that can be spoken about a a little more openly now, but people mention hoarding and I think people feel like it's a really negative label, you know, hoarding disorder, and it is not people choosing it.

And yet still, even with professionals that I work alongside, will still see it as a lifestyle choice. if somebody's got a, a really full home, they will see it as a personal unwise decisions, even though the person may not be able to sleep in their own bed or access their kitchen. And clearly it's a compulsion and not, not a, a choice to swap home comforts for, for the stockpiling it comes with a negative connotation, so I don't like it from that point of view. I think I'm not a psychologist, so when I'm called in to see people, and it's not, there's no label there, there's no formal diagnosis. Who am I to say what it is? and the other thing, as you've touched on there, that, with hoarding disorder, there's no two ways about it. That is a long-term struggle that people will have and it there will rarely be a linear, journey to, to sorting their belongings out. In the same way that other disorders will be on that, that sort of, you know, changing sort of direction for people when they can make progress and when they can't. but by labeling it as hoarding when they can make small changes in specific areas that make all the difference to them.

I think that's what we focus on is what is this person able to do, rather than focus on what is this person not able to do? Obviously, respecting the, the worry and the anxiety that goes is just right in front of you with hoarding. but really focus on whether the, the points are where they can actually start to engage with their stuff.

Lesley: Because you're right, Jasmine, because people can make. decisions about certain things easily, but other areas of their life, they really struggle. So demonstrating, hoarding tendencies in some areas or some types of things, but not others. And so it's not always across the board. And this is why it's so important not to put these labels onto people because it's gonna present in a very different way, in the same way that depression is going to present in a very different way, depending on what time of day it is and what person and what triggers there are and so on. And so there's not a one size fits all here. And so, so we should not then label or assume anything.

And that's the important thing I think about having a professional who understands that and is sensitive to that is really, really clear. And even, even getting the right professional organiser is important as well. You know, Jasmine, you spend a lot of time in Homes in Crisis, working alongside people with hoarding tendencies very sensitively. 

You've got a lot of experience and it's definitely something that needs experience. It's not so, you can't make that shift really easily over from what we call at the beginning of the podcast, if there is such a thing, standard decluttering into a very, very full home in a crisis situation. It's a very, very different skill set, isn't it?

Jasmine: It is. Yeah. I mean, and I think we kind of feel like we're all on a spectrum, so we understand, hor hoarding, tendencies hoarding in a way because we know what it's like to be sentimental about belongings. We've got an understanding there, and we think that in a way we're on a spectrum. And to a certain extent that's true with how full people's homes can get until you get to the disorder end.

And then that's not about self-control. We are not, it's not a straightforward line between finding it very easy to put things out in recycling and, and all the way up to hoarding disorder. It is a fundamental different way in which people process in their brain, and experience the items around them.

And so it's just, yeah, being aware of the fact that, It's an unknown to the person. I think that's the other thing that's interesting from my point of view, it's all very well labeling people and, and and that, but until you're in that dance with the person, they themselves don't know how emotional it's gonna be or how difficult it's gonna be, it can take them by surprise.

And also, I wanted to write something if I'm honest about it, that says yes, it is tricky work there. If a person doesn't know what they're gonna find difficult, I'm new to the, the environment. It is a dance. It takes a little while to get to know somebody and what, what's gonna happen. And we don't, we don't always get it right.

Jasmine: We've got experience, we try our best. But as I've reflected in the book, some of those journeys are too tricky for some people. They've made some progress, but they, they can't get all the way. And I thought that was an honest appraisal of how difficult it can be for some people, to let, let some things go.

Lesley: I think you're absolutely right. I mean, it's so, so, so interesting talking to Jasmine in this way, so sensitively as well. That's really, really important. And I think one of the things that I wanted to talk about as well, that you, that you talked about a minute ago was that people or, or the professionals or other people then consider people with hoarding disorder consider that to be a lifestyle choice.

And I think, you know, the interesting thing is often people who present with hoarding tendencies as well also suggest that it's a lifestyle choice as well. So they. Kind of hide behind that and sort of very self-deprecating, use humor a lot to try and, well, I like things this way when deep down you feel, you know, deeply dissatisfied the, with the way things are, but have kind of almost convinced themselves or, or use humor to mask that situation themselves.

And so people sometimes can be forgiven for thinking that it's a choice because the person that is presenting with, with those kind of hoarding tendencies, Is saying that outwardly and openly. And so I think that's, that's why it's such a tricky world to navigate. I love the idea of you, calling it a dance as well.

Got this nice idea in my mind about what that looks like. I wanna come back to something that you talked about in the book. So, first of all, Jasmine's got this fantastic book out called Being Owned. Tell me a little bit about the book and the premise of the book and why you started to write it.

And then I wanna come back to something that, there was a few things that really jumped out at me. Of course, I loved everything. As a fellow professional organizer who's worked in homes like this, I just loved the sensitive way that it's presented. But you tell me why did, why now? Why did you write a book and why did you feel that the world needs to know about, the types of work that, the type of work that you've.

Jasmine: Yeah, I mean, I think, being a decade in, as I say, it's a, you know, a decade in professional decluttering, I wanted a chance to reflect on, I mean, firstly from a, from a purely selfish point of view, really, what is it that I. What is it that I do? , we all sort of, you know, it is a curious profession for sure.

it's becoming more understood that, you know, you might have somebody in to support you in, addressing your home. We've seen those huge changes over the last 10 years and that being, something that people are, more readily embracing. so I thought that was, it was useful to really understand what is it that I particularly do when I go into homes that are, that are very full, but also the things that I really remember. So more commonly, people ask, you know, You know, these programs are on, that's just like what you do, isn't it? On the television? This is, that's the same thing that you do. And I was finding myself feeling quite, oh, you're a declutter. 

Jasmine: Can I have your top tips? Well, absolutely those things are really useful for people. But because the client group that I work with, it's so much more about,the poignant conversations we'd had at certain points of their, of their journey in, addressing their homes that those key points where they were starting to take control and ownership and enjoy belongings, those are the things that I really, they found lost things.

Those are things that really resonated with me and really made me feel, no, that's, that's actually what I do. I think I even say in the book, about, And the first story when I turn up to help with a project, with, with Darren and my colleague is at the top of the stairs in an old, old wardrobe. We spend a lot of time in people's cupboards putting on folk hats and old waistcoats and things like that. sorting out the belongings at the top of the wardrobe, and they're having a right on giggle about it. Because of the journey we've been on with that gentleman, we couldn't open the front door when we first met him, he was so nervous and we literally knew nothing about him, nothing about his life or anything. To see him emerge and then enjoy his belongings was the things that, that really, that that is what we do. And I stood there and thought, this is what people don't understand. This is what we do the joy. Because decluttering is associated with loss. What's gonna come out of the door? I wanted to remind people there's so much to be gained even in those environments. So hence writing the book with a series of stories rather than a how to. Cause as we could make plain here, I'm, I'm really not the top tips kind of gal.

I'm not the time lapse, , tidy up kind of gal. my business is much more about, you know, those small moments of real joy and, and discovery. I wanted to capture some of that hope, if you like, in the, in the stories to, to tell people that although we can think hoarding is a, is eccentric behavior or strange or other otherly in some way, there's a lot of really lovely things that happen for people and really very special given the, the journey, the really heavy work they have to do to get.

Lesley: It's making me, making me kind of happy, but reflective of our own, journey in the Declutter Hub as well. In terms, that's what it's all about. I think, you know, if, if our job was about throwing things into bin bags and carting them off to the charity shop or the tip, that would be a very dull job really, wouldn't it?

If it was about tidying a drawer that was then gonna become untidy in the next, in the next three weeks, that would be very unsatisfying. But it's about the personal connection with people and the huge steps that people make on a, you know, certainly on a daily basis in our membership and on a daily basis in the work that you do.

And that's what makes it very special. It's that emotional connection to people and the journeys that they go on. Before we go to the break, I just wanted to talk about one, one point that really resonated with me in the book, and I'm gonna quote it, Jasmine, you say, this is a strange vocation that can have you saying hello as newly met strangers, and minutes later, you, you maybe go straight into the heart of intimacy and personal stories in a way that is difficult to replicate in other environments. Perhaps medical professions have this also, as we link talking about our bodies with every aspect of our lives and personalities, touching people's stuff in their home can instantly trigger these memories. Our stuff has stories. 

You're so right, because what we do is so intimate with strangers in the first instance, and the key to this is, yes, we might go in and do a consultation in the first instance, but even with somebody who's struggling so much with this stuff in their home, even getting, as you say through the door for a consultation, it is a, is a big deal and is intimate in itself. And so do you wanna talk a little bit more about that? Because I think that's really key cuz it is. and we get people saying, well, it would be so weird to have somebody come in and going through my stuff.

Completely agree. It is kind of weird, you know, that we're, we can be going through someone's knicker drawer or going through someone's personal letters or, you know, whatever that is. What we see is everything in someone's home. And that's intimate in itself. Jasmine, right?

Jasmine: It is, and it's not even the things that, you know, people have got out on show that they want, you know, they want to share the family stories because there's the photographs of that out or the, memento from that holiday when you're in people's cupboards. It's the stuff that they haven't touched for years and might be not a secret self, you know, but, other parts of their hidden self that they may not have expressed to somebody for a long time or haven't even told those stories, you know, out loud themselves and it catches them, like I say, that catches them by surprise. And because handling the belonging straight away can bring that memory for people, you know, it's, there's not even space for necessarily for the person to go, can I, is it okay for me to share this story?

They're in that moment with you, which is why we've got to be a safe pair of hands. And I use that phrase an awful lot with you, a safe pair of hands, when people are opening up. It is very much unlike any other profession because in that moment we wanna respect and honor the stories. Because again, this is what we're all about.

We're about people engaging with their stuff so that they can celebrate it and know what they've got there that they want to keep. So it makes it easier to clear the way to those things by, by perhaps decluttering some of the things that, that are in the way of those, those special items. Belongings are good. It's not a controversial view from a Declutter of belongings are good, but they prompt those sort of memories and those stories, that really. We still need to do the practical work. So honoring those stories, being very, open and, and listening to what, you know, the good, bad and the ugly, all the stuff that's there, but also making physical progress in the home as well. It is tough work is what I would say to anyone, you know, with decluttering, it's tough work, balancing all of those things up. But as you say, the bit that's so rewarding.

Lesley: I think it is, you know, for, for anybody who's thinking about having somebody in whether you do have a home that's very, very full, or whether you're just thinking about getting any kind of professional organising help in, the one thing I think that that's important is, is trust. Is that gut instinct when you first meet somebody about how sensitively they're gonna approach this, that's the important thing.

This is about emotional connection to stuff and it's about respect and that's the first and foremost what you should be looking for. You know, if somebody's talking about the the kind of process and how we're going to do it. People need to actively listen to what you are saying and they need to come across as if they're gonna respect your things.

And that's the starting point. As a declutterer and organizer, that's what it's all about. All of the other stuff, the chucking stuff in bin bags, the sorting out of the, course we like folding stuff that's fine. You know what to mean? But that is such a byproduct of what this process actually is for a lot of people, particularly if you're struggling with very high volumes in your home.

Ooh, exciting podcast Jasmine, I told you she was sensible, didn't I? We need to bring the happy and she's smiling if you're watching on YouTube, so we're okay. But for now, we're gonna go to a little break, and we'll be back in a moment. 

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Lesley: So welcome back everybody. Thank you so much for being here with the lovely Jasmine Sleigh talking about her lovely new book, which is called Being Owned. Talk to me about that title, Jasmine.

Jasmine: Yeah. I wanted, to reflect the fact that, a lot of the book is about the power dynamic between us and our stuff. When I started writing, that's what kind of kept coming back to me really is to what extent do we feel like our belongings are helping us in our journey of life or are they hindering us in some way?

Are they holding us back in some cases and in, in some of the situations, I mean, are they, are they actively working against us to, to do the things that you want? And everything from, you know, that people can understand in, you know, trying to fulfill a hobby but not having the space to actually do the hobby or, trying to, you know, make your way around from my point of view with, with people whose homes are very full, make their way safely around.

To what extent do we feel like we've got control over what we do with our stuff? It's a quote I often give to people is that it's not much we do have control over, but what we do with our belongings is one of the areas we can, we can exert a bit of control over. But because of a lot, the clients that I work with, they feel like they don't have that say once the stuff, once stuff is in their homes.

Once they've aquired something, it has a place that is more permanent and can't be questioned, even if it's not serving a purpose for them anymore. I found that fascinating. So the title really was to reflect to what extent we own things and owning things is great. By all means, do don't necessarily have to be a minimalist, or to what extent are we being owned?

Are we being ruled by the stuff that we have in our homes? So that's what I wanted to reflect.

Lesley: I think it's a fantastic title to represent that kind of control element of the stuff. And I think that's one of the things that we teach at the Declutter Hub Jasmine as well, is about the whole process of decluttering for us and teaching people how to do this independently. Cause that's what's different perhaps about the Declutter Hub and the things that we're talking about is that to learn a process of letting go and making the right decisions about your stuff, where you feel in control. So we are very much, if you're not sure, keep it rather than what's the, what is it? What's the name? If you're not sure, let it go. Is it? Well, there's a, like a thing that rolls off the tongue. I don't remember what it's, but anyway, so we are very much a kind of keep it because we want people to feel 100% in control of the decision that they're making.

And so that's what we're trying to teach people is how to get to a decision that feels like you are in control of that and you've made the right, right decision for you at that time. You might change that decision further down the line. You might feel more comfortable to let something go, that feels a little bit irrational at the moment.

For now, you feel control keeping it, and that's the most important thing. So it's really, it's a really, really, great title. So I wanna talk now, Jasmine, about some of the stories in the book. Now, the way that the book is put together, it's a collection of stories of your clients that you've worked with over the years, and they have different angles, let's call it different angles.

They've got different things that make them tick and make them have this connection with the things that they have in their homes. And so one that really, I loved it, right? I loved everything about it because I could see loads of my clients in every single one that you described and the stories that you described. But I wanna talk, first of all, I wanna talk about Jane, right? The story that you told about Jane, and I'm gonna quote something again. So you talk about, there are all sorts of reasons why people have had to stop sleeping in their beds or staying in certain rooms and the buildup of stuff to prevent access is often more incidental than the core reason, whether fully acknowledged or not. Now this is something that we see. So if we think of somebody with hoarding disorder, people often think about people who can't get in a room, sleeping on the sofa, can't get in their bed.

There's a judgment perhaps that we make. And so what did you mean by that when you talked about this? the buildup of stuff is often more incidental and the core reason, and I wanna delve into that a little bit more please.

Jasmine: Yeah, of course. I mean, the first point being that, you know, you can free up people's beds and they don't necessarily sleep in there. So, you know, the first point was that, as we've touched on earlier, where there is this view sometimes from professional agencies that people whose homes have got very, very full. What they, what they want is a clear space and then there'll be all better. Well, that's obviously not the case. There's all sorts of reasons why people have felt quite comforted with the way things are. So we've definitely freed up spaces for people and then realized they're not sleeping in those bedrooms, and there'll be other reasons why they felt safer sleeping in a chair downstairs. and then of course when they're sleeping in a chair downstairs, they are just basically drawing in their whole life to that surrounding lounge area. So I suppose what I meant by that is, you know, your normal life can be drawn into a square meter of your armchair because that's what you need to function. But there are other reasons why you are not taking the journey upstairs at a client, for example, who had PTSD and wanted to make sure they were sleeping nearer the back door. Rather than being in the bedroom where they felt quite unsafe. Now, without having those conversations with people, you know, you blindly go in and go, well, let's just make the bedroom available for you and it'll all be fine.

But listening to him and understanding what he needed to happen, what we really need to do is make that lounge space work for him as a bedroom so that he could feel safe. Still have all the things around him that we all need are practical, but weren't just, you know, more, haphazardly,surrounding him.

So it's about listening to people and then obviously there was a whole tragedy behind him that led to that, that situation. But it wasn't necessarily the reason why at the time his home looked as, as full as it was when we met him. So it's just about unpacking those stories a little bit to get to, and even if we, even if they don't even know themselves, they can only give an indication of why they feel better here. They don't really know the reasons. It's about adapting the space so that they can function better, rather us saying, well, obviously you will want this space and this space doing X, Y, and Z for you. It's not obvious necessarily. Everyone's home is quite d.

Lesley: And that's when it's quite difficult sometimes when it's a kind of third party referral as we kind of call, call it in the industry a little bit. Somebody from social services or a charity or a family member even wants this to happen for their loved one and wants to intervene and to try and make things better. It's about understanding what that looks like for the person rather than for the third party. Because we can all make our own assumptions about what looks better, you know? So if we've never struggled in that way, of course we will think, of course that person wants to sleep in their bed and that's the goal here.. And you're absolutely right, but that might not be the goal for now. Hopefully at some point in the future, in, in a phased approach, they might feel safer in a, in a, a lounge space it's a little bit less cluttered, and then slowly but surely they might feel more comfortable to, to move back upstairs. But this, these changes this, situation is, is probably built over years, if not decades.

And it's gonna take a little while to get through it. And I think that's the important thing is, you know, we've, we've done podcasts, not so,not so long since, we did a podcast about how to help somebody. What do you do if you're offered help or if you want to help somebody? And so we kind of alluded to this a little bit in that, cause it's really difficult because if people help in the wrong way, it can be so damaging. So damaging, it can take people steps back for years and years because we haven't got the same common goal. And so it's so important to have that goal, whether you're a professional, to, to understand that goal of the, of the person, it has to be person-centered. It's so, so, so important. So I'm glad that you raised that as well, Jasmine.

Now one of the things that, that sort of. I was conscious of is that, of course, a lot of people listen to this podcast who struggle with clutter or have become newly, uncluttered, decluttered, or have got an interest in clutter. But many, many people, unless they struggle with hoarding tendencies themselves, will never have been into a home of somebody who hoards a a, a high, a high level, right?

And so for most people, their only window into that world is through TV shows. Now, we have a little bit of a love-hate relationship with TV shows in the professional organizing world. We're really happy with the awareness that they raise in terms of the fact that, and if it's sensitively done, to be fair, the programs nowadays are becoming more sensitively done in not all of them, but many of them are much more sensitive to emotions, to mental health issues, to stories that have led to this happening.

And so I. So we, we like the way it's going. We're happy that it raises awareness, but we struggle with the fact that it's a TV program and provides entertainment. And so what's your experience of TV shows? Not just hoarding, show, maybe hoarding shows, shows more, but, you know, decluttering shows. Obviously we've got new ones here in the UK at the moment. there's lots going on. It's something that people want to see because it's interesting, isn't it? But we have to look at it in the right way. So what's your thoughts? I think I probably know the answer to this already, Jasmine, but let's, let's talk about it and delve a little deeper into TV shows.

Jasmine: You, you are exactly right. The, the sort of awareness raising is helpful in one respect and things have become a little bit more sensitive than they were. I do mention in the book that, I have been asked to go in, to support people after they've had,a TV go, go in and do a big, reveal, if you like, the big reveal of, clearing a, a lounge and everything, and I've gone out and all of their belongings are out in a huge gazebo in the garden or are all stored in the garage. So although the, the, the space is lovely, it made great tv, there is still now years, and I don't use that , that word of, the lightly years of decision making still yet to go to actually have a sustainable result for that person.

They've not had to do the really hard work of engaging with single belonging in those boxes, things have just been boxed up. So it looks great for telly, but there's usually a long process by which people that are, that's hidden away and the actual work can take time for people. And like I said at the start, can be sort of varying sometimes. Television is helpful in one respects, but does kind of simplify what is the situation for people that when they're very nervous, they have to take things very carefully and have small wins?

Initially, like many of us, we recognize that in order to make trickier decisions as time goes on, and especially if they're really full homes, we are talking about a considerable volume that's being moved to one side and that's just deferred. The, the issue, they got nice lounge, like I say, but engaging with those belongings and making decisions is, takes lots of time, lots of support to, to get there so we don't get to see the real full.

Full picture and am as I would go back in that I don't have a single client who would have t TV cameras in their home. They are just about okay with me going in. So I, I've always find it amazing that they've got people who are brave enough to, you know, brave and, and, and open enough to have their homes on television.

But the majority of people, if we go to the stats, you know, the, number of people with the hoarding disorder they think is anything between 2 and 5% of the population. So like in Devon, I always say in Devon there's about 18,000 people they would estimate are not sleeping in their own beds due to their homes being so full. But we only know of 5%. So it's a really hidden issue. And that's the majority of that is because people don't let anyone over the threshold of their home to see how difficult it has become for them. So I'm, in a way, I'm always amazed when they just open these doors to homes that are really full, when we approach homes, we are very often having consultations in the garden to sort of warm people to the idea, especially like you say, when it's not, it's been referred in to them to cross the threshold into the home of which they're often really embarrassed or worried about. So just them walking in, this seems strange to me straight away. It's like, this normally takes a, a good, you know, hour of negotiation. Before we get that, get that far.

Lesley: I'm just, I'm, I'm interested actually, Jasmine, just, about your work and, and these numbers and statistics that you've talked about in Devon. Sorry. Anybody who's not in the uk, Jasmine lives in a beautiful, part of the UK down in Devon in the south west of the country, almost getting it wrong there. And so a beautiful part, hence her lovely accent as well.

So, how many clients that you work with at this level would you consider to be successful? And that success could look like different things to different people. So how many do you walk away feeling that you've done everything that you could do? And how many? How many do you think it was just never going anywhere.

Jasmine: Oh, that is a tricky 

Lesley: question.

Ooh, isn't it? Isn't it

Jasmine: I mean, you know, from a professional point of view because, you know, it's, it is very interesting work. It's difficult work, but I think I would be fair to say that more recently with all our expertise, every client we've been to, this is as far as they could get with an organisation that is only focused on belongings, we're not doing other things, and just got a bit of an unhealthy interest in people's cupboards.

You know, we think that we've tried the best to help people along the way. If they're not ready, they're not ready. And I think I feel that way. I think there's probably, there's something much more structural about the support that, I could spend an awful lot of time talking about, but it would be very boring for your listenership, but certainly what people require, in terms of very gradual, paced support over a number of months and years to make changes is not the way it is funded. So we get short-term project work to do something with people, which makes them safer for a period of time, but is not, is not the answer for the person.

I suppose that's another reason why we reflect on the, on the television programs that is, you know, where they're. It's all set up and there's professional support and there's therapy available for people as well as the practical decluttering and it's all integrated. I would love that to be the situation, but often we are doing the best we can with a little bit of, project money from the housing association or from from social services to make some inroads so that the person, you know, doesn't end up, having to go into hospital or can manage, their home environment a little bit better.

So in terms of fully resolving, we don't fully resolve. We just make things a little bit better. And I'd like to think on the majority of cases that that is, that is a situation, obviously from the book that I reflect on the fact that there are people who, we've worked with that, you know, we've had to just acknowledge that to be led by the client means that we would have their home safe in a day.

Because they're not ready to, it's too difficult for them. Actually, in those rare occasions, the decluttering has been more stressful for them than living with the home as full as it is. So we have to just put those things in balance and sometimes, like, say, walk away where it's, it's not doing that person any good to, to try that process of, of parting with things that they're finding too difficult to do.

Lesley: I think it's, I think, you know, reading between the lines and, and knowing what we know, there are so many things that are required to, for, for over, you know, out and out success, time, money, budget, therapy, medication perhaps. There's so many things, so we're looking for something that potentially is gonna take a lifetime to fix. But I think what's fair to say is that somebody, like, you know, each one of those individual components, you know, whether that's a therapist, whether that's a professional organizer, can make a little bit of difference to try and give that client hope that there is light at the end of the tunnel. And so I think, or.

you know, help towards safety or as you say, you know, get them home safely from hospital, you know, or get one room right and not the rest of the house. And so I think it's about making those positive small steps, but knowing that, you know, it's a big long journey in front of them. 

So I could literally talk about this for hours and hours cause it's so fascinating. Jasmine, but I wanna talk a little bit about, the book and what did you learn about yourself? You talked about the fact that you wanted to reflect on your job and why you're doing this, and what are you doing and all that. So what did it, what does it actually entail? So did you learn anything about yourself? It's a big deal writing a book, right?

Jasmine: It is. Yeah. And I mean, it was interesting what didn't make it to the book, what did make it to the book? You know, like with all these things that, there was an awful lot of just unloading, you know, experiences that we had had. But I was quite fascinated as I wrote the book about reminding myself the joy, the joy of the job.

So I think I say early doors, you know, when people say, well, oh, what's the worst job you've ever done? And they're sort of really trying to get to the, you know, they know what I do for a living, they want the sort of salacious details on a, a squalid home, for example. And actually the actual stories of people, the conversations that I had with people, those are the things that stuck. So where it was more difficult was where, where we've gone in seeing progress, and then watching the person not absolutely put the, the, the not the door in our face as such, but you know, closed down the process because it's got too worrisome for them.

But know that there was the possibility there that can be hard to accept, but that's just a matter of, you know, the person not not being ready at that stage. It wasn't right for them at that stage. So I found it really interesting to sort of reflect on that we have added an awful lot of value to people's lives.

There have been some amazing things that have happened, that really keep me buoyed up cuz it is a tricky profession, tricky line of work to be in even going forward, over the next five years, I think the budget's cut in the public sector, that we need to just stay focused. What is it that. We do do, and what is it that we, value about what we do?

And of course, obviously that affects the sort of clients that we re remind ourselves. We are our real core clients and accepting all the sort of highs and lows that go with that. So yeah, it was really interesting to revisit those stories, and just remind myself the joy, the joy of the job.

Lesley: I think you know that we, we get asked that all the time, don't we? What's the worst job you've ever done? And I think it's fair to say that the worst job that we ever did will never be about volumes in a home. And it will never be about squalor. It will be about perhaps a disconnect between you and the client that, that that connection, that communication just wasn't happening in the way that it should.

And so I think where it just wasn't working, I think it would be something like that for me. Rather than anything to do with volumes. And so if you, you know, if you are somebody who feels that you've got hoarding tendencies and feels like you've got hoarding disorder and you want to reach out for help, you know, don't feel like you are alone.

There are people like Jasmine, like me, or the loads and loads of professional organizers who can help in the right way to try and move you forwards. So don't, don't do this alone. Don't do it secretly. You know, do reach out for help. Cause there is help out there. There's tricky times out there, of course, at the moment, but there is help out there and it's important for you to feel understood. I think that's the most important thing that somebody understands you can take you a long way forward. 

So Jasmine, thank you so much. Tell us a little bit about the book like we've talked about it. What's it called? Where's it available? Where can we buy this wonderful book?.

Jasmine: So the book called Being Owned, a Decade in Professional Decluttering. You can register interest the book at, my website, which is, changeyourspace.co.uk it's available. At Amazon, on ebook or paperback, and it's available at Waterstones online. And it's not a long read. You'll know yourself. It's quite accessible, and I just wanted to produce saying that gives real reassurance to people that, we've all got, we all understand what, having a relationship with our stuff on our homes is like, we know it's an important relationship with, you know, but, to find some, some hope and heart in, in those journeys that, clients have had. So I hope it's useful to people.

Lesley: It's been lovely to catch up cause we've not seen each other for ages. We're opposite ends of the country. So thank you so much for sharing everything about your book and all your wonderful insight into working with people with hoarding tendencies and hoarding disorder.

Next week on the podcast, we're gonna shake things up and go back to basics. This is like, could not be a polar opposite. Next week we're gonna talk about how to organize your underwear drawer. Jasmine, would you like to come back on the podcast to talk about that or are you gonna leave that to Ingrid and I?

Jasmine: That's absolutely fascinating. I think I might have to tune in.

Lesley: So thank you everybody so much for listening, and we'll see you next week. 

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Episode 231 – The stories behind hoarding disorder with Jasmine Sleigh

Episode 420 – 10 Small Clutter Problems that Create Big Stress

Episode 419 – Why repairing is better than buying new with Martine Postma from Repair Cafe

Episode 418 – Nesting isn’t just for new babies

Episode 417 – How member Michelle Decluttered Her Way to a Fresh Start one floor up

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