A photo of a woman, Maya Rooz smiling into camera
Episode 351 – Hidden grief with guest Maya Rooz

When you think about grief it’s a natural response to think about people or pets you have lost, but there are so many other situations that leave us grieving. In today’s podcast we are talking about hidden grief and have invited professional coach Maya Rooz to tell us all about it.
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Transcript of this podcast episode
Speaker 1  00:00
When you think about grief, it's a natural response to think about people or pets you have lost, but there are so many other situations that leave us grieving. In today's podcast, we are talking about hidden grief, and have invited professional coach Maya Rooz to tell us all about it.

Speaker 2  00:30
You're listening to the declutter hub podcast bringing you tried and tested no nonsense tips and advice from the leading experts decluttering and organizing your home. Now here's your host, Ingrid Johnson,

Speaker 1  00:53
hello and welcome listeners. I'm Ingrid. If you're new to the digital hub podcast, you're so welcome. What you'll find is that we try and find the fun factor in the serious business of the cluttering. And if you've been here for a while, you know exactly what we mean. So thank you so much for listening. If you'd like to get involved in conversations related to this podcast, it all takes place in our free Facebook group. So come and join our lovely, warm and supportive community. Go to declutter hub.com, forward slash group to find out more. Well, hello and welcome Maya. What a treat to have you as a guest on today's podcast. Thank you

Speaker 3  01:34
for coming. Thank you for having me. Hi Ingrid. We

Speaker 1  01:38
have known each other several years now, haven't we? I mean, we first met at the APDO conference. And for anybody who doesn't know what APDO is, it's the Association of Professional Declutterers and organizers. We met at a conference. You did a topic about hidden grief, and I was, I can honestly say, blown away by the topic and about your expertise. And I came up to you afterwards, and I were like, We need to talk. You need to come onto the podcast at some point, and here you are finally.

Speaker 3  02:13
Oh, it's been a pleasure to be here, absolutely. And yes, I can't believe this was almost two years ago now, so Hayden grief is still a topic, definitely, and we waited a long time, but now we're here, and we're doing this

Speaker 1  02:27
exactly. So how do you know so much about hidden grief? What kind of how has this happened? Because it's not something that kind of comes up and goes, Okay, I know how what happened in your life that you know about this topic.

Speaker 3  02:43
Well, it started first. I didn't know it was hidden grief that I noticed it back then, but it started with already a second client of mine, when I went into their home and I realized that organizing is not all about it's not just about the stuff. Actually, it's not at all about the stuff. Then I went into coaching, and I went through this big program and continued my organizing on the side as well. And it wasn't until I was invited by an author of a hidden grief book who invited me on her podcast to talk about how hidden grief shows up as clutter. And that opened my eyes in that podcast, because obviously preparing for it led me to think and and then I thought, Hmm, it's it was with that client, and with that client, and then I discovered it in my own life. I completely transitioned careers about five years ago. I spent 15 years in the automotive industry, in the corporate world, and then during COVID, I pivoted, reinvented myself, probably is a better word, and became a professional organizer. Then it started. Started with coaching, speaking all the above and and I just realized that, you know, in my wardrobe, I found items that were reminding me of my old work, my old career. And every time I would open my wardrobe, I would realize that there is a past life in there, and it always felt like I had nothing to wear, but I was no longer going to the office every day and and then I realized that even though leaving that industry was my decision. I felt, I felt such grief about it, but I felt such I felt such grief about this whole situation, and I couldn't call it grief. I didn't know it was grief. And it wasn't until after I spoke to this author that I realized this is hidden grief, and then it snowballed from there, I just started seeing it everywhere, every following client I went to, if there was a specific thing in their home, I could recognize hidden grief. And then coaching helped me how to show up for those clients and actually make sure that I can help them in a proper way. Okay,

Speaker 1  05:00
so, so in your case, hidden grief really started with seeing the close of a previous career in your wardrobe. So once, when you start exploring hidden grief, What other things did you see? You know, what is hidden grief? Do? Do we have a definition of hidden grief, and can you give me some examples?

Speaker 3  05:25
Yes, certainly so hidden grief, which is also called disenfranchised grief, is grief that is not openly acknowledged. It's not socially recognized. And I think downplayed would be the best term to use for it. It's grief that is downplayed because it is not necessarily just the death of a loved one, which is what we commonly refer to as grief. It's miscarriage, infertility, divorce, loss of a career. It can be any of these things, empty nesters, children leaving home, that can leave that can leave us grieving, leave parents grieving. So it's everything and anything that doesn't culturally count as grief in our society. It's

Speaker 1  06:12
interesting you say that because I definitely had the empty nester syndrome last year when my son left for university, and I always thought I was going to be one of those moms who was going to be like, you know, you know, I'm just going to make, you know, I'm, I'm going to, I've raised them to be independent, and they're going to be fine. And I, I'm going to, you know, I love it that he goes to uni. And the whole year before he left, I was really emotional, really dreading it, crying. And I know people who know me know that I cry all the time, but it was even worse than normal, and it was just that sadness of him leaving, and it was not because I didn't want him to go, because I wanted him to go. I think it was just makes me emotional thinking about it. I think it was the fact that your family will never be the same. I'm sorry absolutely,

Speaker 3  07:06
absolutely it's and that's why this is definitely it counts as hidden grief, because nobody would recognize this as Ingrid is grieving, and it's so personal and it's so intimate. Yeah,

Speaker 1  07:18
I think so. I'm sorry, listeners, that doesn't happen very often. I cry on the podcast, but it was hard. It was hard. And I think somebody can be a bit light, like, like light hearted about it, and go, Oh, you know, he's just going off to you. He's fine. And I always thought that way myself. So when it hit me, I was so surprised by it, and so like, it came out of the blue, honestly, that I thought, Wow. I did not expect, I did not see this coming, and it, it took me a while to get used to the fact, and I'm super happy for him. He's doing super well. I'm, of course, I miss him and, you know, and when he gets back, you know, he comes in and the whole place is turned upside down, within five minutes when they're home, but you you miss that family setup that was just so special. And I think I can really now resonate with this hidden grief that, while I never did before, actually. So I think maybe sometimes when you've got lift experience, it changes everything, doesn't it, how you feel about it, and now you can understand it and how you can understand somebody else, if, if you've been there yourself, and it doesn't mean you can't show up for other people, if they're struggling with something, if you you can't just go. But I think you've, I've got an understanding now that I never had before.

Speaker 3  08:38
It gives you a next level of empathy, for sure, yeah, for sure. For sure. As I, as I go through this topic on various podcasts and various, you know, settings, I also always learn something new, because I also go through life, and I also have stages of things that happen and and it just always, there's always another aspect of it and another angle to it, which, yeah, which. I really love. It's, it's really beautiful in a way.

Speaker 1  09:08
Yeah, I think so too. Well, listeners, I'm gonna take, I'm gonna be honest with you, I'm gonna say what, I took a break for a minute because it was just it suddenly hit home that actually my empty nest syndrome was hidden grief, and I hadn't really realized that, I think, before recording this podcast, but I have regrouped. I am ready to continue talking about this conversation. The lovely Maya is still here with us. So Maya, you've talked about all the different ways that hidden grief can show up, but how do you see that than with people. When you're working in people's homes, how does it represent in clutter?

Speaker 3  09:48
So the first thing that I will come back to is in the wardrobe. So you can see it in people's wardrobes. You can see so many signs of hidden grief, like with the career transitions, or if you see. The let's say moms who have a lot of maternity wear but they don't plan on having any more children. But that's grieving, that stage, that beautiful stage of their lives. It shows up very often in our garages with hobbies that we no longer pursue, or aspirational clutter the things we we hoped we would do, but we never did. We never got around to it shows up in lofts and basements as clutter. Have items belonging to previous partners, it or pets that have passed. So obviously, we have a lot of that, empty nesters, so things, intact rooms, children's rooms, either majors, they're just as they were when the children left. And this is not an issue, unless it becomes a problem for your everyday life and or it stops you from fulfilling a different potential. If you have several rooms that are, you're still your children's rooms, but you could create a whole new purpose for those rooms. Then it becomes clutter. It's not always these things are not necessarily always clutter. They're a clutter if it's an issue for you, if it causes a problem in your in your life. And also, I think one which is also very, very interesting is when you have a loved one who is in a care home, in the long term care, that's also a really special one, because that person is still alive. But let's say they struggle with dementia. You've kind of lost the person, but yet they're still there, and you still have all their stuff. It's, it's a really, really tough one. That's really one, and even, and I have, I have had some cases of this where people transition from one gender to another. What do you do with your old self, or if, if it's a child, what do you do you used to have a child of a certain gender. So there is a there are so many ways. And again, it is not always clutter. It's clutter if it becomes a problem for you in your space.

Speaker 1  12:13
Yeah, yeah. Because I think these things can really hold people back of where they are currently and where they want to go right, but they don't see that. They just see it as an overwhelming task to do something and to let go of something and to honestly, I think, ask themselves, but what do I want now and in the future? And if the clutter is holding you back. You're holding yourself back, and that is such a waste of potential, or, however, a waste of a life.

Speaker 3  12:49
Absolutely, we do tend to, if you think about it, and I just published an article recently on this. We tend to live in the past in our homes. We build, we spend, we invest, we purchase and we build. We buy items that build a certain life, but then we've spent the money, and we get stuck in that old life, and it stops us and holds us back from becoming someone else, becoming better, growing. It's a tricky one, and then when it comes to the grief itself, as we know very often with grief, with normal grief, I call it normal, but with actually the natural grief, when you lose a loved one, there is this tendency to distract yourself, right? We end up not dealing with it. A lot of people end up not dealing with it. This happened to me when I lost my father about eight years ago, I buried myself into work, thinking that that would be a way out. It wasn't. But when you distract yourself from dealing with the clutter in your home, you're losing a whole you're losing so much potential, so much space in your home that you could be repurposing. It's really deep, yeah,

Speaker 1  14:09
yeah, yeah. And I think people understand, I'm so glad we're talking about this topic Maya, because I think people understand grief when a loved one passes away. I think people, I mean, a couple of weeks ago, we did a podcast with Kevin from pet dignity creme, and we talked a lot about grief from losing a pets. And I think that is people can kind of understand that as well. But all the things we're talking about now, I think, are really, not really discussed, you know, I mean, maybe empty nest syndrome gets jokey about, like, Oh, she's one of those moms that you know can't let her kid go. But a lot of the things examples that you've given are are not really talked about yet, right? And that's why I think I'm so grateful that we're talking about this, because I just like. You have seen this all in clients houses, right? Yeah, and I think we both know that it's never about the stuff, it's about the emotions that sit behind it. You know? Why do a lot of I see a lot of families that still have all of the baby stuff into the loft. And I'm like, Are you, are you know, what's the plan? Are you gonna have another Oh, no, no, no, we're not gonna have any more children. And I'm like, you know, but yeah, so you have to kind of unpeel that and talk about that and and go. But what are you gonna do with all this stuff, because stuff is not meant to be stuck in a box or in a in a basement or attic or loft somewhere. It's meant to be used and loved. And that doesn't mean you can't keep anything that is sentimental, but when you see it all, especially with midlife, as you said, maternity clothes, I see that a lot as well. Like you know, you are not planning to have another baby. You look amazing. Why is there still all these maternity clothes in there that make you maybe, you know, not look your best, right? And but I think it's the yearning to a time that they probably loved and that they miss and they love being pregnant. They loved having a little baby. And yeah, it's it's trying to get your head around that yourself. And I think once you start to declutter with clients, you don't see that on the first sessions. That comes later, when you start to know them, when you start to talk with them, and yeah, and then these things come up, right?

Speaker 3  16:50
And for me Ingrid, this is the My favorite part about what I do. This is why I do what I do. It's not about helping people just get rid of the stuff. I've now started becoming very picky with clients, and I don't like to work with people who declutter only to replace it two weeks ago with new things. I believe it's so important to be that safe space for the client to be so present and create so much trust that you can recognize these things, not just from the stuff, but from what your clients are telling you, how they're showing up. That helps them let go as well when you truly hear them, when there is no judgment, when there is no I mean, we all carry biases. We all have our own beliefs, our own cultural norms, our own assumptions. We bring that as organizers or as friends of those people, it's not just about an org. Every time you go to someone's home, you you make your own impressions, right of what you see. You if you see someone with hidden grief and you you recognize that these people need so much love and understanding and yeah, just no judgment. That's that's the hardest part, curiosity, acknowledgement, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1  18:11
Let's go for a break and let's chat some more after break on how how do you deal with it? How do you deal with it? So let's take a break and we'll see you soon. Hello listeners. Welcome back. Gosh, this if you're listening to this podcast and think, wow, I can imagine you might need to take a break after listening to this podcast, you might want to re listen to it again and kind of let it all sink in, because it might be something that you've never even thought thought about before. So we've been talking about all different kinds of ways that hidden grief can happen, that we see the clutter fall out from that hidden grief. But Maya, how do people do this? Right? Because our listeners might not be able to have a professional organizer in their houses. They might have to do this by themselves. They might even be blown away by the fact this is actually something they've never realized this before. So what do people do?

Speaker 3  19:12
Okay, that's it. Let's dive into that. So first of all, you might be listening and going, that's me. I have that I have hidden grief for whatever reason, or you can or you can see, oh, that's my sister, or that's my mom, that's my husband. It can happen in so first thing to know is how you can help yourself. We always start with ourself, I would say definitely, we'll come to how you can help other people. But when it comes to yourself and noticing that you have hidden grief in your space, self acknowledgement and self compassion is absolutely critical. First step is always awareness, right? Maybe this podcast has has gotten you to get to that point where you say, Oh, yeah. Yeah, I have something. Awareness is first first step. Second step is, is the self love, self acknowledgement, self compassion. That you haven't heard about this, perhaps before, you haven't thought about this before. And then the following is, either you start tackling it slowly yourself in very small doses. I'm a true believer in small steps, and I'm not a type of person who goes cold turkey on anything. And when I work in my own home with my own children or with my clients, I always break everything down into tiny, tiny, manageable steps so that change is almost undetectable. And especially with some topics as serious as this, you cannot go, oh, right, well, I just, I guess I'm just going to go and throw out everything from the garage. It doesn't work like that. And no one, I believe, should make us think that this is doable. For some people, this causes serious as you know, probably, I'm sure, you know, getting rid of clutter can cause physical pain, so we have to go gentle with ourselves when it comes to other people. So you recognize someone in your community, in your family, in your home, who is struggling with this. It's good to notice so that you can step away and, you know, remove the judgment part and become curious. You listen to them different. You just see them differently, and you see their stuff differently. I would definitely say, don't try to control anything in their space. Don't try to fix it for them. Be there and inspire. I think inspiration is always and modeling we always talk about, you know, raising children, about how modeling behaviors is the way to go. And I think in this case, it's the same modeling behavior always start with your own space, first, deal with your own clutter first, before you help someone else. And having said that, it's not we cannot always help either. And I think recognizing when to call for to ask for help or to help people realize that they might need help, that's a very important one as well.

Speaker 1  22:16
Yeah, I think so too, and I think that's why sometimes that people end up calling a professional organizer, or if they feel that they're very alone, they end up in our membership because they want to be part of a community of other people who also understand that it's not as simple as just put something in a bin bag and throw it away, but that there's lots of reasons why the clutter is there. There's there's trauma, their emotions. And I think you want to feel that people want to belong, right? They want to be part of something. And in our, in our in my one to one, work with clients that are still, you know, do a little bit, you know, I can still help on the ground, but, of course, in our membership, we do this online, and we help Leslie and I help our members with our information in our courses, with the opportunity to ask questions, but also that our members can share their stories in our forum and and we then, you know, answer and give tips and advice, but the fellow members are also Amazing and supportive, and we see it all the time, like I'm so glad I'm not the only one, right? And that I feel heard and I feel listened to, and I feel understood, and I think that's the thing, isn't it? And I think when you see someone in your surroundings, who you see is struggling. It's sometimes hard, you know, because we've it's hard to talk about grief, it's hard to talk about hard things. But I think when you you want to reach out and give that helping hand to somebody and listen, sometimes people don't want advice. They just want to be listened to. When they want to be heard.

Speaker 3  24:02
Oh, 100% Absolutely. I mean, everyone wants to feel heard and seen. That's one of the basic human needs. And yeah, we as organizers, I know we, you know, sometimes we go into homes and we are ready for action, but deep down, we are empathetic, we listen, we're there. We're 100% present. We don't judge, and we're curious, and that's what you can do to help someone in your community. If you're not an organizer, but you you help someone, you have someone who you can help.

Speaker 1  24:36
Yeah. So when, if I go back to the little bit, so when your father passed away and you kind of buried yourself in work, what was the thing that changed it for you? Was it suddenly the realization that you were doing this? Were other people like, what's going on? Mai, so how did you deal with it? Because, of course, it's a long time now. Hindsight is a beautiful thing. In it when I know now what I knew back then. But you make the best decisions as you can. So how did you deal with it?

Speaker 3  25:07
For me, it was actually quite cold turkey. I ended up in hospital with a full blown burnout, and oh my gosh, yeah. So I had no other I think this was a really good wake up call. I really buried myself into work. I hadn't done any work on grief. I didn't know this was the first close person I had lost. For me, that part didn't show up as clutter. It was on the contrary, as I was recovering from my burnout, I was notoriously just decluttering. That was my therapy. I actually even volunteered to declutter in a school, and that's how I actually even started my business. My actual business came out as my recovery from my burnout. But yes, so for me, it was a very, very fast wake up call. Yeah, everything changed.

Speaker 1  25:59
Yeah, everything changed. And I think that's why you understand it so well as well, because you've been there and you probably it's, it's on your rate, once you know it, you start to see it come up everywhere, right? So if people are listening to this and thinking, Okay, I recognize this. Well, yeah, this is something that I had never realized before. I agree with you. I think it's very important to take it slowly. Take it surely, if you maybe realize that you've got, you know, a whole garage full of hobbies, of stuff that you maybe can't do anymore, or don't, or I'm not interested anymore. We're not lamaya and I are not saying, right, garage is next project and just chuck everything out. We know you need to build up your decluttering. You need to start slowly but surely. You need to start in easier rooms. You need to build up your decluttering muscle over time until you feel ready. And feeling ready does not mean you then have to go cold turkey and throw everything away either. It means, right, I feel ready now. It's the same when you deal with clothing from a person who's passed away. You don't have to go, right? I'm gonna clear out the whole wardrobe now, and everything is gone. You can just start with, okay, I'm just gonna start with some socks and some underwear or something like that, and, or maybe the suits, because I never liked him in a suit, or whatever it is, you know what I mean, or, Oh, the ties he never wore anyway, because we haven't been really wearing ties in work. So the ties are easier. Well, maybe for another person, the ties are the hardest things to do, so you have to really, kind of gently ease yourself in, right?

Speaker 3  27:55
Absolutely. I mean, change is not easy, right? As we know, it's not just it's not just about decluttering. Any change is difficult. Our brains do not want, do not like change, whether good or bad. When you start, when you have the awareness and you decide you need to come to a point and to a mindset where it's enough and you want to start somewhere, and then when you go slowly and you go easy on yourself, you you need that self love, and you need that self acknowledgement that you are doing this. You are taking it slowly. You didn't it didn't take a weekend to get all that stuff into your home. You cannot expect to miraculously make it all disappear instantly. Yeah,

Speaker 1  28:37
yeah. I agree. Oh my gosh. Anything else you would like to share with our listeners. Maya, yes,

Speaker 3  28:45
I think it's very important that we recognize that sometimes we cannot, we are not the right people to help someone, and I speak now as an organizer as well. So for any organizers listening, I think it's a very ethical thing to do to recognize if you cannot help a client. Sometimes we have people who genuinely could do with some therapy to see what's behind the clutter, and there are professionals who can help with that. The best thing we can sometimes do for our clients as organizers is to to walk away and in a in a nice way, I mean, I mean it in the nicest possible way, but to acknowledge that we cannot help them. We learned this as organizers. It's part of the apto code of ethics as well as is with coaching as well. I cannot help all my clients. I'm not an expert on lots of things, and I need to be able to say I have someone who can, who would be better in this situation for you,

Speaker 1  29:44
yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's really true, and it's I think, because professional organizers are such helpful people, right? And we we know that getting a grip on the clutter can move. Move somebody so in a such a positive way. But we don't want to force a situation either. We need to realize when a client needs more help, because we are as a as a professional organizer. Most of us are not trained psychologists, psychiatrists, therapists, coaches. You know, there are other people who specialize in that. We just know a lot about clutter and decluttering and organization and storage and and all of those things, but you have to indeed know to be able to say to a client, okay, I've listened to you. I love to help you, but I also think you need other help besides me, or maybe you need to do some work in in that first, and then when you're ready, I'll come back. But because we're such helpful people, it's sometimes we can sometimes see it, but the clients sometimes, you know, it's how do you bring that message to others as well, that that they really need to go to their doctor and talk to somebody about this, because this is so hard.

Speaker 3  31:06
Yeah. But also, equally, you cannot make someone, you cannot make a grown up do something. So if you're not an organizer, if you are an organizer, or if you're just a listener on the client side, and you see someone, I think it's very healthy to detach from that in a certain way and acknowledge that you cannot help someone who does not want or need help. You can only do so much. You can inspire them and model it, but don't get too attached by trying to help them, because it's not good for you.

Speaker 1  31:38
Actually. Yeah, exactly. It's that fine line, isn't it? It's that fine line, and that balance on, on how to, you know, be around family and friends and other people, and where, what do you do, and when do you stop, and when do you see and when you say something, when you don't, you know, it's that's and with grief, it's tricky, because I think people find it hard, you know, if, if somebody passes away, it's hard to say the right thing and to know what the right thing is. You know, even then. So if it's hidden, you might not even realize so it's, it's, yeah, it's, it can be a situation that you think, why is this happening? I just can't put my finger on it, and I don't know what to do, but I hope that this conversation has opened up people's minds to other ways, and that there's more to grief than just people and pets, and that we need to be understanding. And I really, really hope that this podcast episode will do that for many, many of our listeners. So thank you, Maya, for for being a guest on our show and sharing your knowledge with us. If people want to know more, where can they find information about you, or where, if you got a website or anything like that? Can you share it with us?

Speaker 3  33:03
Yes. So my website, mayarouz.com, I can also be found on LinkedIn, on Instagram, as the life curator, and I would definitely also recommend so the author who interviewed me and started this journey for me is Katie rustler, and her book is a new face of grief. So I would definitely also recommend if, if people would like to look more into the hidden grief in more depth, then that's what I would recommend.

Speaker 1  33:30
Okay, thank you so much. We will definitely put your website in the show notes, so do check them out if you like to find out more about Maya, and I'm sure her website will give you all of the links to Instagram and LinkedIn as well. Listeners, what has resonated with you today? What steps can you take? Have you realized that you might have hidden grief, and how are you going to deal with this? Thank you so much for listening. Thank you so much for being here Maya, and we will see you next week.

Speaker 2  34:11
Thanks so much for listening to the declutter hub podcast. Don't forget to subscribe to us in your podcast player so you don't miss an episode, and we'll see you next week.
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