A photograph of a man, guest, Chris Lovett talking into a microphone about the discovery of less
Episode 155 – The Discovery of Less with Guest Chris Lovett

Episode 363 – Before you blame the clutter are you doing these 10 things?
Episode 362 – The Roots of Clutter: How Britain became a nation of stuff with Professor Jane Hamlett
One topic that we have never really discussed before on our podcast is Minimalism! So Ingrid is delighted to be talking to Chris Lovett. Chris has written a book called “The Discovery of Less. We find out more about his journey into minimalism and how he has changed his life completely after selling and donating 90% of his belongings.
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Transcript of this podcast episode
[00:00:00] Ingrid: There is one topic that we have never really discussed before on our podcast, and that is minimalism. So I'm delighted to be talking to Chris Lovett. Chris has written a book called The Discovery of Less, so let's find out more about his journey. into minimalism.

[00:00:18] I'm so excited to welcome Chris.

[00:00:21] Hello, Chris. I'm so excited to have you on the show. Likewise, Ingrid. Thank you for having me. You're welcome. Now you're a minimalist, motivational speaker, career mentor, professional executive coach, podcast host, simplicity coach. and author. That is a really mouthful 

[00:00:41] Chris: of stuff. It's interesting to start a podcast by having loads of labels straight away.

[00:00:47] I think we need to have less labels. Don't you agree? Yeah. I'm very conscious that there's lots and lots of where many, many hats. So yeah, yes. All of those things. It's a collecting. Experiences and collecting those kind of skill sets was much better than the collection I had before. Anyway, 

[00:01:04] Ingrid: okay, well, we're going to talk a lot about that, aren't we?

[00:01:06] Because let's start. And I think that's the reason why you're here, your book, the discovery of less. And don't worry, listeners, I will put the link to his book in the show notes. 

[00:01:16] Chris: Oh, thank you. How much did I pay you to say that? 

[00:01:20] Ingrid: Nothing. You gave me the book, but I think you were all surprised when I said I read it from, from start of it.

[00:01:25] And of course I'm interested in this topic. So of course I would do my preparation and read your book, but it was a wonderful read. I really enjoyed your story. So what happened? 

[00:01:40] Chris: What happened in a nutshell? Yeah. Um, yeah, it was, it was interesting. I mean, firstly, you know, thank you again, sir. For taking the time to read a book.

[00:01:48] It's not a, um, it's not a quick read, you know? Yeah, I suppose it is, but it's a few hours out of your day. And I'm very conscious that people's time, resource and energy is, is special. So thank you for reading that. And thank you for those people who have read it. Already, actually, that's really nice. People said to me, you should write a book.

[00:02:08] Um, I was going out and talking in companies and in groups of friends and in teams about this whole life transition that I've been on. So, back in about 2016, 2017, I just got stuck. You know, I was ticking off all of the Society's vision of success. So I had a job, I had a title that says manager. Wow. Don't we all want that?

[00:02:34] Right. And, um, I had debt. I had. stuff. I was stressed. I was busy, had a car, had a home, had all the things that you're supposed to have in life that says you're doing well, right? Actually, that stuff wasn't really doing it for me. And the things that I really wanted to do, example, go traveling or learn to play the guitar.

[00:02:56] I couldn't do because I didn't have any money to do any of that stuff. Um, I was too busy all the time to actually take any time off. And in the end, I just settled, you know, for a solid six out of 10 life collecting. Entertainment stuff, thinking that actually if I surround myself with more things, then I am successful.

[00:03:20] And so yeah, I spent all my money on DVDs, on vinyl records I never played, books that I never read. Um, and it was a, it was a funny moment, really, because there was no plan to this, Ingrid. And one day in, it was probably February 2017, I was, I was at home on my own, and I was... Trying to sort out trying to organise, right?

[00:03:43] Basically move stuff from one room to another without actually getting rid of it. Just I was really good at organising and I'd moved some DVDs off a shelf, moved some CDs around and I was downloading music ready to go traveling. And then I couldn't put these DVDs back on the shelf. It was really annoying.

[00:04:02] And I think I referenced it in the book. It was almost a bit like playing Crystal Maze when you just can't get that crystal out. And. I thought, why have I got doubles, like I had double DVDs of the same film or CDs or music that I'd never really liked? How have I got this stuff and why have I still got it?

[00:04:21] And so I thought, I wonder if there's any way I can sell it for the short term goal of... Putting the rest of the stuff back on the shelf rather than it being all over the floor. So I thought if I can sell like 10, 15 DVDs, I can make that room on the shelf and put them all on there nicely, organised. And what I found that I was scanning the barcodes on my DVDs and realized that they weren't worth anything.

[00:04:44] And that was a realization that actually all the stuff that I'd spent thousands and thousands of pounds on was worthless in a financial capacity. So I was like, how, if I sell this stuff, what does that mean? Does it mean that I'm not a big enough fan? Does it mean that I'm not grateful? Will I feel guilty if I sell it and then I really want to watch Ghostbusters again?

[00:05:07] Like what, what, you know, I was just going for all these emotions and I ended up selling, um. Pretty much all of the DVDs I had to get some money to pay off the debt so I could go traveling. And I felt I'm going to miss all of these, but you know what? I never did. And it made me realize how much stuff I had surrounded myself with that I thought I owned, but actually over a period of time it took ownership of me.

[00:05:33] Because I was picking up a DVD going, I can't get rid of this because just in case I ever want to watch Karate Kid again, or just in case I ever want to listen to this CD that I really hate, because I've got to keep it, you know, um, and so yeah, so it all kind of happened by luck, really. And I'd realized that I didn't need a lot of stuff that I'd surrounded myself with all these years.

[00:05:56] I went back into work on the Monday. I told all the people at work, I was like, have you ever decluttered before? Have you ever had that feeling of getting rid of stuff? It's amazing. And they're like, what are you talking about? Why would I ever want to do that? So it all kind of led from there. Really. I was looking around my.

[00:06:14] My living space and the less stuff was there, the happier I was, the more calm I was, the more clearer I could think, the better I was performing at work, the more activities I could, I was doing. And I was like, surely that it can't be just it. So, so yeah, so decluttering my DVDs was the very, very start by luck.

[00:06:36] And then I've realized that actually there's a lot more to decluttering than just removing stuff from your environment. And that's where the digital decluttering came in. I had all these stories that I was telling myself that I couldn't do this, or I couldn't do that. I wasn't good enough for this or too old or too young.

[00:06:52] And so that mental clutter as well was really getting in the way of me doing things. Um, and I started to let go of it piece by piece and found that I could be just as happy if not more about having 90 percent less stuff. 

[00:07:09] Ingrid: Yeah. So that's quite a bold statement. Percentage wise, 90 percent less stuff. 

[00:07:16] Chris: Yeah.

[00:07:17] Oh, it was, I mean, it was the stuff that I'd surrounded myself with was, was, was crazy. I mean, things like, I'm sure, and I'm sure you've helped people in this area before, like the old manuals to electronics, you no longer own the excessive amount of wiring for. That you keep just in case magazines, books that you've probably read years and years ago, you never intend to go back.

[00:07:40] They all just end up taking over and it becomes suffocating or suffocating. And, um, yeah, and you, you end up feeling that, but unless you start to remove it piece by piece, only then do you realize that actually I don't need any of this to be. My version of what successful is. So yeah, it was, uh, there was a lot and I made a lot of money.

[00:08:03] I didn't make a lot, but I made a bit of money by selling stuff. I wasn't using and giving it to people that were going to use it. And then that helped me achieve the goal of going traveling. Yeah. 

[00:08:14] Ingrid: So in the end, you thought that all the stuff you had, the job, you had the car, the house. That was making you happy because that's like, when you have those things, you're happy.

[00:08:26] That's what they say. They say, but in the end you can do the conclusion. Actually, I don't need that stuff to be happy. Actually, the less I own, the better, the 

[00:08:35] Chris: happier I am. Yeah. It honestly, it was almost a bit like The more stuff I got rid of, the clearer I could think, the clearer I could see a path, the more time I had to do other things that I really wanted to do.

[00:08:51] Um, so everything was always a rush. Everything was always a hundred miles an hour, um, excessive cleaning, excessive collections of stuff that I never used. It was overwhelming. And, um, yeah, as I let go of it piece by piece, I started to then redesign what I wanted. My life to look like, and so I had all this space mentally and physically to go, right, what do I really want to do with life now?

[00:09:18] Yeah. 

[00:09:19] Ingrid: Yeah. Instead of indeed the stuff, um, consuming you, you got rid of the stuff. So you created the space for the things that you wanted to do in life. 

[00:09:29] Chris: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And it 

[00:09:31] Ingrid: was not only, only DVDs, was it? It was sports equipment. It was clothes, lots and lots of clothes, 

[00:09:38] Chris: right? Oh, I loved, yeah, I loved clothes.

[00:09:41] I was, um, I was that typical kind of young, early thirties guy that wanted to stand out. So I would buy the most, you know, really kind of niche reference t shirts like saved by the bill or a band that hardly anyone knew. And, you know, you grow out of them or you. Well, they start to deteriorate. Um, and then you just buy more.

[00:10:06] You always go back to that. One day, I'm going to fit back into that. Or one day there's going to be a fancy dress party where I can wear, you know, and there's always these things, these excuses that we, we layer. upon ourselves and we convince ourselves that we keep to keep all the things and yeah, all my, all my football kits, my sports equipment, uh, trainers was another one.

[00:10:28] Yeah, there was lots. Um, but yeah, as I started to kind of chip away, I realized that I didn't need hardly any of it to be, you know, to be complete. 

[00:10:38] Ingrid: Yeah. And did your, did your girlfriend come on board as well? I mean, she suddenly looked at some digital cameras, didn't she? And she found several. 

[00:10:47] Chris: Yeah. Well, that's the thing, right?

[00:10:48] You know, you, you hide stuff away in your home. Yeah. Because you buy stuff for storage and then you forget about it. Um, so yeah, my, my, my partner, Haley, did she read about in the book? You know, she was a bit like. But it's all your stuff. What are you doing? And I get that. I get that. It's really disruptive way of, you know, purging your stuff.

[00:11:11] It's really kind of goes against what we believe and what we've been conditioned in society. But she could see that. You know, there was immediate financial reward by getting rid of stuff that you weren't using to give to people that were going to use it, which ultimately helped us achieve our own. Why, you know, the why was we needed money to go traveling and we weren't going to take all of this stuff.

[00:11:34] We weren't going to take three digital cameras with us. We weren't going to take, you know, spare bedding or, you know, 150 t shirts. We weren't going to take all of these things with us. So what were we going to do? Give them to give them to my mom them store it for God knows how long it felt. It didn't feel right to kind of burden anyone else with all of our stuff so it felt right to to offload it to donate it to recycle it.

[00:12:00] And yeah, she was then on the same page bit like. Oh, yeah. You know, we've not used this stuff for a long time. Are we really ever going to use it? Yeah. So, yeah, it was a really good challenge to kind of go through that together. And, um, yeah, we, we did achieve what we set out to achieve and there was no detriment to any of the losing any of the cameras.

[00:12:21] Ingrid: Yeah. You haven't missed anything so far. That's, that's what, but maybe I will need it one day. Maybe I'm, I'm feeling regret that I got rid of something. I mean, and I always say decluttering is not a hundred percent perfect. You will make a couple of mistakes along the way, but as long, and that's why you need to build up your decluttering.

[00:12:40] You have to start with easier stuff first and do harder stuff later. So you don't feel, but it's not about perfection, isn't it? You, you are, are there a couple of bits you think, Oh, that would have been handy if I would have had that now. And do you regret getting rid of them? 

[00:12:56] Chris: Um, I don't regret any of the activity.

[00:12:58] No, I think it was, I think I'm still waiting, Ingrid. I'm still waiting for something to pop up and go, Oh man, I wish I'd have kept that extra roll of sellotape. Something really, really bizarre, like that extra pack of cards. Um, nothing has really come up. Yeah. That has stuck out. Yeah. Something that we've needed to rebuy.

[00:13:19] But again, you know exactly what you said, it's not going to be perfect and we're not, we never aimed for perfection. All we aimed for was less. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's what we achieved. 

[00:13:30] Ingrid: So you did go traveling, didn't you? You gathered enough money and you went traveling. So tell me about the backpack.

[00:13:38] You even tried to take too much stuff. You tried to take too much 

[00:13:41] Chris: stuff on your world trip, didn't you? Yeah, I was, I was still a novice to, to the kind of minimalist mindset. And I had, and by the time we left, I hadn't even heard of the term minimalism or, or being a minimalist, whatever that meant. Um, and so whilst you're decluttering in your own home, it's a little bit more comfortable because, you know, The stuff you touch, the stuff you see, it's all yours.

[00:14:03] You're in a place that's comfortable and it's known. And so at that point, getting rid of clothes, getting rid of vinyl records and wires and things like that, I knew that at any point, if I did make a mistake, I could go back to the shop and buy it. Um, however, going traveling was, was completely different because I was going into two countries and cultures.

[00:14:23] I was I'd never experienced before. And so I almost regressed a little bit. And I was like, well, I've got to take everything. Yeah, I've got to take everything left that I own and stuff it into a bag. Because again. If the stories that we tell ourselves, you never know, you know, just in case the disaster kind of stories that we tell ourselves and you never know, I might need those two hats, which, which, which was almost a little bit of a became a little bit farcical and people will read that that story in the book.

[00:14:52] But, yeah, we didn't need the volume of shoes that we took. We didn't need the volume of hats that possibly could have come with us. And, uh, yeah, and halfway through, we ended up ditching half of it again. Because again, I had that realization that we're never going to use it. And so it was almost like a double whammy.

[00:15:10] You had, I had that experience at home and then once I was out of my comfort zone in different countries, I had it again. And at that point I realized that I actually, I could do anything in the world. I had such confidence that I could be okay anywhere in the world with less stuff. Yeah, I'd survive. I'd be all right.

[00:15:29] Yeah. Um, because I had, you know, it wasn't the bare essentials. I didn't just have one pair of shorts on flip flops and a vest and that was it. You know, I had enough. Yeah. But what I figured out was enough had finally reached that kind of level that I, right. That's it now. That's what I 

[00:15:43] Ingrid: need. Yeah. And I think maybe also realization that you can replace things and it might not be the perfect replacement and might be something else, but there are shops around the world.

[00:15:56] It's not like you were in, in, in the jungle somewhere, maybe for a couple of days, but not like for months on end, then you have to kind of do a survival track with nothing left that you didn't go to, you know, you were in places where there were shops and you could buy a new t shirt if you wanted 

[00:16:11] Chris: to.

[00:16:12] Yeah, I wasn't on a desert island. Yeah, right. Yeah. And again, that was curated. Because I had more time. I had more clarity. I had more money to do that because there was less stuff. So, so yeah, there was a couple of kind of jungle tricks and even then, you know, I didn't need this after stuff I took in the backpack.

[00:16:32] Yeah. 

[00:16:33] Ingrid: Yeah. So your view in the Arizona desert. That stuck with me. You had almost like an epiphany or so. It felt like an epiphany in the book. Yeah. And I have, I have not yet been to Arizona. It's on my bucket list, but I could just see you driving in that car, looking out of the window. And what you said.

[00:16:56] This is the most beautiful thing I've ever seen in my life. 

[00:17:00] Chris: Yeah. And I, you know, I'm very, very conscious that it can sound a bit cringy and this whole story can seem a little bit too far fetched for people. Right. So I'm one of these guys that is a bit like, ah, Philly, right. You don't have this epiphany.

[00:17:14] You don't have these magical moments until I. When driving, right, but it was only for going through that process of getting rid of stuff, understanding what, uh, you know, all the stories I was telling myself that that wasn't good enough to do this or, you know, very, very risk adverse, too scared to go on an adventure, too scared to try stuff.

[00:17:34] And yeah, it was only at that point I was stuck in a traffic jam and, um, I'll put the picture on Instagram as well. So people can, people can kind of. See it. So when they read the book, they can go on my Instagram and just kind of go, Oh, right. Okay. That's what he's talking about. So in Sedona, we were just stuck in traffic.

[00:17:51] So there was nothing you can do other than look out the window. And just, just take it in there is, you know, use every stuff you can do. You can complain, you can moan, um, you know, you can get really annoyed by stuff that you can't control, but it was at that point, it's like, well, I can't control any of this and what a beautiful place to get stuck in just looking at all these surroundings.

[00:18:14] So it was almost a bit like, rather than kick off and moan about things, just enjoy where you are. And it was only for, you know, about 90 seconds or so, But that was a point when I was like, yeah, I've arrived now. I've finally kind of let go of all this stuff that I've been telling myself. 

[00:18:33] Ingrid: It's, it's being, it's being present in the moment, isn't it?

[00:18:37] It's being and enjoying where you are and just taking that moment to take it in instead of looking back or always looking forward. It's being in the present, isn't it? 

[00:18:49] Chris: Yeah, that's exactly right. And, you know, I'm not saying for a minute that's an easy thing to do because we've, you know, life is such that there's going to be things around the corner that are going to interfere with your, your plans.

[00:19:04] Once you can get those moments and maybe get more of them smaller times, but more of those moments, you can actually then just stop for a minute and you know, that everything's going to be okay. So, 

[00:19:17] Ingrid: yeah, so how did you then come across minimalism? Because you said in the beginning of the podcast, I'd never really heard about this before.

[00:19:25] I had no idea about kind of, I knew what decluttering was, but minimalism, no idea. So what happened? 

[00:19:32] Chris: Yeah, I, I found a documentary and again, some of your listeners might have seen it, you know, they're kind of the, the two guys in America, the minimalists, they very, very popular, very mainstream in Western society.

[00:19:46] Yeah, really just stumbled across some of their content and it was then that I could kind of connect the dots, all that stuff that I was doing and kind of. A new approach to living and being had a name. Yeah. I was like, right. So is this, this is actually something I can carry on doing, not just one and done.

[00:20:06] And yeah. And I kind of adopted that title and I was like, right, so now let's see how I can put this into real life because, you know, Ingrid, we've spoken, you know, we've spoken a lot about, you know, These epiphanies and lovely moments where you get times declutter and things like that. Real life is such that stuff's gonna go wrong.

[00:20:27] Stuff's gonna, you know, get in the way, um, and things like that. And I was almost like, how can I have a minimalist? Mindset and lifestyle and take it into all aspects of my life. So not just the decluttering part, which is hugely important, but how can I then take it into the way I look at my social media, how, you know, I engage on email, how do I approach my, my huge group of friends, um, you know, these things.

[00:20:53] So I was a bit like, so it almost changed my view of not just stuff, physical stuff, but all types of. Stuff so so, yes, I've taken that now into the workplace. I've taken that into. Um, day to day life or taking it into traveling, you know, and so that, that kind of label has, has stuck with me and I've, I've almost evolved a bit from the original, hugely important decluttering part to be a, a lifestyle choice.

[00:21:22] Is 

[00:21:22] Ingrid: your partner also a minimalist now or is she one who's

[00:21:29] Chris: definitely not, no, um, but, but the awareness has grown. Yeah. So. Again, I, you know, for people out there who have got that mindset, who have friends and family that are not that way inclined, that's okay. And, uh, yeah, so I, I look at something slightly different compared to, compared to her, but that's okay.

[00:21:51] Yeah. So she's, she knows that if there's, if we get, we get to a point where there's too much stuff, we can go like that and recycle it, donate it at any point. Yeah. So it's just having that belief that. You can at any stage just let go. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 

[00:22:06] Ingrid: yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think a lot of people think that minimalism means you've got like two pairs of shorts and three tissues and one pen, right?

[00:22:15] That you've got absolutely, absolutely nothing. But it, it's not about the amount of stuff, is it? It's about the mindset, I think, of I don't need to have that much. I don't need to constantly buy things. I rather want to have. Less friends, but better friends and more time to do the things that I want to do.

[00:22:39] It's not about you can only own 30 

[00:22:41] Chris: things, right? No, and that's it. And I still quite, you know, people will take this approach to life in however they want to use it. And that is, that's great because it's so individualistic that you can kind of use a lot of information and go, I'm going to take this, take that, ignore that.

[00:22:57] And mold it to my own lifestyle situation, which is great. You know, from my perspective, I'm very much a realist. I will look at stuff and I go, if I need to buy stuff, I'll buy stuff. Yeah. Yeah. And luckily now I've got more money than I had before because I don't spend more money on stuff I don't need. So when I do need something, I can just go and buy it.

[00:23:20] Um, but I have these processes in place to kind of look around what I've already got. Um, that can be reused. Where do I buy stuff from, which is another new thing for me, you know, am I buying like something that's sustainable for a reputable brand? You know, these types of decisions, you know, do I, am I getting caught up in consumerism?

[00:23:42] Which I still do sometimes, you know, sometimes I get an email about a gig or a concert. I'll be like, Oh, that's really interesting. Oh, I think I want to go to that. And I'll end up going through the processes. Buying tickets and then I'll leave them in the basket for a little bit and I'll come back to another day and like, do I really want to go or, you know, and so I just have these kind of little milestones in place to, to make sure that if I am buying something that it's done with a little bit more intention rather than throwing a credit card 

[00:24:12] Ingrid: and stuff.

[00:24:14] Right listeners, what do you think so far? Let's go for a quick break and after break we come back and we'll definitely, I've got slumbered many more questions. So we'll come back after the break.

[00:24:24] So welcome back. Thanks, Chris, for being here and enlightening us about your, your journey and about what minimalism means to you, because I think minimalism will look different to everybody, doesn't it? And I think that's an insight that I really.

[00:24:39] Want our listeners to pick up on as well. One person's minimalism is not another person's minimalism, but it's all about finding the time and the space and doing the things you love to do. So you traveled, you had a fantastic time with, of course, it's ups and downs as, as life is, you came back. And then you were living in your mom and dad's house for a couple of weeks until while you were flat hunting, weren't you?

[00:25:06] That's right. Can you tell us a story about the loft? Oh, 

[00:25:10] Chris: yeah. Um, yeah, you really had to have been there. It was one of those things where once your eyes... Once your awareness goes, your self awareness grows and your, your eyes are open to stuff and you will see more stuff that has been there all that all along, but you've never seen it.

[00:25:30] You know, you've maybe looked, but not seen. And yeah, my, my parents loft was a place where they had just stored a load of old junk through sentimental attachment and just really just not being aware of what to do with it. So. You know, they placed a lot of value on, say, old kids toys from when me and my brother were growing up.

[00:25:55] And so rather than get rid of them, because they held that emotional and sentimental attachment, they would go in the loft, collect dust, be in bin bags, and just, you know, start to deteriorate. But they didn't think about, they probably didn't really know how they could move the stuff on in a safe way, other than just taking it to the tip or to the dump or disposing of it, because they didn't want to do that, because that would be far too difficult to just throw stuff away.

[00:26:23] They kept it. So it was a black and white thing for them. I don't want to throw it away. Therefore, I'd keep it. There wasn't this middle gray area that all of a sudden become available because of the use of the internet and a lot more access to marketplaces and then ability to recycle and things like that.

[00:26:39] So, so yeah, I went up in the loft to get some kind of smart clothes that I'd left. Behind because I had a job interview, so I was changing my whole career at this point as well. And I'd gone up and got a suit. I found that there was loads of suits up there that I didn't use. So they went as well. And, um, yeah, I just found that they had kind of kept all these old board games, these old toys of my brother and I as in magazines and things that, and I was asked them, you want to do with this stuff?

[00:27:08] You know, you know, it's here, you know, it's not going to be used. What do you want to do? And, um, so I almost opened their eyes to just basic things like eBay, which they, they'd heard of never really engaged with before. And I showed them that there's certain toys that. People want collectors out there, or there's schools that you can give these to that will add massive value and rather than being in a box or in a bin bag.

[00:27:35] And so once I almost showed them that that was a possibility. They were more engaged with removing stuff from their loft, and they got into that habit of looking at things and asking the questions like this, what we're going to do it. Yeah, does this stuff. Add value and, and yeah, the more questions they were asking of each other, the more they grew into become more comfortable with we've done decluttering.

[00:27:59] And again, you know, it wasn't perfect. They didn't look at everything and go right. A hundred percent get rid of it all. There were things that my mom would, um, would walk up the stairs and she'd be like, don't throw anything. Don't throw that out. And she'd be like, What is it? And then we would laugh because she had no idea what it was, but didn't want to get rid of it anyway.

[00:28:18] She already 

[00:28:18] Ingrid: wanted to keep it before she even knew what she wanted to 

[00:28:21] Chris: keep. That's it. Right. And that's the kind of irrational mindset that she was in because you know, removing your attachment meant that. You were letting go of something you didn't want to let go of. But it wasn't the thing, it wasn't a broken toy that you were letting go of, it was something far deeper.

[00:28:39] And um, you know, what I mentioned in the book is around, if she was to let go of her toys that her little boys would, were playing with like decades ago, she would probably think that she's letting go of spending time with us. Yeah. And we know that's not true. So, uh, so it was almost a little bit of a reassurance to say, you know, you can let go of the Lego if you want to, um, let someone else build their own journey.

[00:29:05] Boom. There you go. Um, and, uh, and yeah, so we, so they got started to get really involved in, in stuff. And my dad's, my dad's vinyl collection as well. He started to become more of a curator than a collector. So rather than just have thousands and thousands of records never being played. He would go through all those.

[00:29:26] I don't want to keep that one. You know why? Why? Similar to me with my music. How are you? How have I even got this? Yeah. I don't even remember where I got it from and I'm never going to listen to it. And it was just being okay with I'm happy to let go of it now. So yeah. So they went on their whole.

[00:29:42] Journey themselves in the comfort of their own home and they still doing it today. 

[00:29:46] Ingrid: Yeah. Yeah. And it's also maybe that acknowledgement of who's going to sort through this all when we're gone. I mean, our parents are all getting older. You know, my, my, my mom is 79. My dad is 75 and I'm grateful that my mom downsized last year and she, she's a very organised person.

[00:30:07] So I would never have to worry about anything, but I can imagine that. That people who have parents that, but houses full of stuff, you know, it's a massive burden and people don't realize that they think they're doing good by saving all this stuff, but we have a lot of other tastes now and things that we find important in life, isn't it?

[00:30:29] Chris: That's, that's right. And it's that kind of line between handing down memories versus responsibilities. Yeah. So, you know, what a, what my parents will maybe hand down to me like a vase. I might look at it and go, why would I ever want a vase? You know, in, in, in this, in, in, in, in my place and it's their perception of what we would like based on their own value set.

[00:30:56] Yeah. And, um, but again, you know, it's difficult. I completely understand it. And I posted a funny picture on LinkedIn yesterday. You've probably seen it, you know, of this old guy and his son going one day, son, this will all be yours. Yeah. And I had a lot of people respond back saying, you know, they're all also going through it with their parents about how they're struggling to let go of stuff because.

[00:31:19] Their sons and daughters might want some of it. Yeah. Yeah. Or it's a very likelihood is that we probably don't. 

[00:31:28] Ingrid: Yeah. And then you went from kind of your parents and then you kind of went to your digital clutter, didn't you? You really started to then think, okay, now I've got these computers and email inboxes full of stuff.

[00:31:40] Yeah. How, how did that go? Did you just declutter a lot of people as well from your, I mean, let's be honest. I mean, there's loads of people in their life. Some, you know, when we look on LinkedIn, there's people that we spoke to years and years ago and we think, where do I know them from? How did they end up in my, did it, so did you kind of declutter your, your contacts and your social media accounts?

[00:32:03] Well, how did you do that? Because that's not an easy 

[00:32:05] Chris: thing to do. No, no, exactly. And, um, you know, it started with, with emails and I had. Pointless emails to things I'd subscribed to years and years ago that I, every day it came in, I just deleted it. Again, very good at organising, but not actually letting go of stuff.

[00:32:24] So, yeah, so I did that with, with my emails, um, really understanding what it is I wanted to keep, but it was all about design because I had the space, I had the clarity to think about how do I want to be engaging with social media, with email, with tech. And so rather than just keep clean sweep of removing and deleting stuff.

[00:32:45] It was redesigning my, uh, relationship with tech. So I would move a few, you know, Twitter accounts, but keep Twitter. I'd remove a few Facebook groups, but keep Facebook. I would turn all notifications off. So I would engage with it when I chose to, rather than being interrupted every day. And again, yeah, LinkedIn was another, another good one because exactly what you said, Ingrid, you'd look back and you go, who on earth?

[00:33:10] Are these people, and unless you're getting value from the connections, you know, whether they're inspiring you to think differently, or, you know, you have good conversation, it's the time to question, you know, what value are they adding? Yeah. What value does this email add? What value does this social network add?

[00:33:30] And just having that questioning mindset of being able to design how you use social media. So I use all of them, right? So I use Instagram, I use Facebook, but it's on my terms. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's the difference. 

[00:33:44] Ingrid: So, yeah. So what has been the positive impacts of letting go all of that physical, digital and mental clutter?

[00:33:51] If you now kind of, you, you, you're about four or five years down the line from when you started kind of decluttering CDs back in 2017, we're four years down the line. Yeah. What are the positive things that 

[00:34:04] Chris: you're seeing? So if I look back now, you know, compare, so I'm, in Cornwall, which is, as for your international listeners, that's like really south coast of England.

[00:34:15] So moved away from London, been in all different parts of. the country, which I didn't have the time to look and explore before. So I've been to more places in the world over the last kind of four years and then in the last 35. So, which is, you know, if you've got that adventure bug as part of your value set, fantastic.

[00:34:37] I've changed jobs twice. My salary's gone up by about 50 odd percent. I have less things. Um, try not to worry as much about things that I can't control. My relationship with tech is decent. I don't pack a load of stuff that I don't use. So all of these things where, you know, where my, my view of success in life.

[00:35:02] It's linked back to my value. So, you know, experimenting, traveling, um, doing adventures, inspiring others. So I've written a book, right, which I never thought I had the time to do, or even the inclination to do. I've written a book, Ingrid. Like, when, why, why? I've set up my own business, which is, you know, Less Is Progress.

[00:35:24] Coaching and speaking business, you know, people are asking me to support them in their own journey, going into companies and talking about this story and none of this that happened. None of this was a thing before 2017. So all of these things I've achieved is because of the way I live now. And the way my mind says, so, um, I'm not afraid to ask questions, which I was before, you know, I'm not afraid to hold people to account.

[00:35:57] And you know, if people were like, when you buy stuff, if they're not giving you the service that you expect, you ask for your money back or, you know, things like that, which I would, was always too scared to do. So these types of things, I mean, my courage has gone up. My confidence has gone through the roof, my bravery, the, you know, my, the way I've designed my life.

[00:36:20] I'm. Touch wood, you know, as busy as everyone else, I still have enough to do, but it's easier for me to say no to things and that's the whole, I mean, we can talk about that as a whole another podcast, you know, our relationship with saying no to things. So, so, yeah, so, you know, everything in. It's going particularly well because I've designed it that way.

[00:36:43] Yeah. So, and that was thanks to having a bit of a less is progress mindset. Yeah. 

[00:36:48] Ingrid: It's so interesting that I say that a lot to my clients. So I myself still work with clients one to one here in Southeast London. But of course with the declutter hub, we help people online. And so much of what you're telling me resonates with what Lesley and I.

[00:37:04] Have in our message as well. You don't need so much to, to, to be happy. You don't need to feel guilty to let go of items you no longer use. If somebody gifts you a gift and you have used it or not used it at all, but it doesn't fit within your life, you are allowed to let it go. So a lot of the things you're saying are completely aligned with our teachings as well.

[00:37:28] And although Lesley and I don't say. You have to become a minimalist. We do say, find out what makes you happy, find out what makes you tick. You don't have to go, you know, you can't declutter just once in your life. It's something that you will have to keep doing, but it gets easier. It gets less work because you've got less stuff that you're trying to organise in cupboards all the time.

[00:37:53] And stuff will start to fit because you don't have so much of it. And all of those things. Don't churn items from run room to the next. It goes from the living room into an unused cupboard from an unused cupboard, into a garage or a loft. You keep churning it instead of, yeah, yeah. Instead of decluttering it and just going, I'm going to make somebody else happy with this stuff.

[00:38:16] And saying no is so important because I think we are all so used to being expected to say yes, if somebody asks us something and I'm always very much in awe of people, I try to be. If I don't want to do something, I will say no, but I'm also a person who wants to kind of help everybody else as well. So it's that fine balance.

[00:38:39] But I think when it completely overshadows your own life, because you always say yes to other people, then it's really, really important that you take time for yourself and you're kind for yourself, isn't it? I think you can only shine and be helpful to other people if you feel happy 

[00:38:57] Chris: yourself. A hundred percent.

[00:38:59] And it's that mindset of you can't do everything. It's, you know, there's, if we were to complete life, I mean, it'd be boring, right? If we went to every single place, you know, collected every single film or, you know, watched every single TV show that ever, ever was created. Um, it would be, it'd be boring. And so you have to almost make a conscious effort.

[00:39:23] Like these are the stuff that I'm going to not do because so I can really invest the time in doing the things that I really want to do. Um, and our relationship with no is, is really interesting. So yeah, 

[00:39:34] Ingrid: yeah, yeah. Um, Chris, I took kind of close off this, this podcast. Do you have any hints and tips for our listeners to get started on their own journeys?

[00:39:45] Because a lot, a lot of our listeners, I know there's a lot of professional organisers who listen in and you're more than welcome to, of course, but there's a lot of people who are listening, who have clutter. Can you give us a couple of hints and tips? 

[00:39:57] Chris: Always. Yeah, of course. Firstly, go on to lettuce progress.

[00:40:00] com. There's loads of, I've written loads of articles about things like trophies and certificates, um, clothes, toys, uh, our relationship with no is an article on there. So there's lots of free stuff on there. You can go in and have a look at, but I suppose for me, it's before you even start your journey, it's of understanding why.

[00:40:22] So if you were to pay for a personal trainer to get fitter, there's an underlying motivation as to why that is. You know, why do you want to lose weight? Why do you want to travel more? Why do you, you know, all of these things. And generally it attaches back to your values. If you don't know what your values are, which like me, I've completely lost what they were because life is 100 miles an hour.

[00:40:43] You just get caught up and there's TV shows, adverts, people you work with, your friends. They've all got different values and we've all gone through this, you know, a certain amount of trauma over the last kind of year or so. So our values might have changed. We might now really value security or really value adventure.

[00:41:02] And so think of this, what that is, what are your values now in 2021, 22, um, and then understand why, why do I want to get rid of stuff? And ultimately that will be your guiding light. So, because if you just start, again, this is my perspective of how I did it. I had a why, because I needed money to go traveling.

[00:41:22] If I didn't have that, I wouldn't have got rid of stuff, because I could have started at any point. You know, I could have started getting rid of CDs and DVDs at any point if I wanted to. I just didn't have the motivation to do it. So what is your motivation? You know, is it to spend more time with family?

[00:41:39] Is it to invite more people around so you can entertain? Is it to, you know, actually spend more of your time learning new skills, new things, go places? So that's that kind of key mental bit for me. From a practical perspective, get on your phone now and delete an app and see how that feels. See what your relationship with that app is that you've never used.

[00:42:02] Or, you know, like, I don't know, the Nectar card or, you know, a supermarket. app that you very rarely go on to delete it. Um, and that kind of gives you a starting point to let go of stuff without actually having to physically do anything. So yeah, so there's a couple of, a couple of bits, but yeah, there's plenty of material on the lessprogress.

[00:42:27] com website and also go and buy the book. You know, there's loads and loads of stuff in there too. Um, it's not just a, um, A host of tips and tricks, because again, I believe that you've all got your own answers to the way you want to deal with your stuff, but it's a decent story. You'll have a laugh along the way to, um, and of course it's been endorsed by Ingrid.

[00:42:47] So, you know, so you can't go wrong there. 

[00:42:51] Ingrid: So what's next for you then, Chris, what is your next step? What's the, is there a plan? Is there a long term plan or a short term plan or is maybe there no plan at all? And it feels 

[00:43:02] Chris: really good. Yes. I mean, there's a little bit of all of that. So yeah, we can't be traveling around the UK.

[00:43:08] We're looking for a place to call home. And the best way to do that is by traveling to an area, do a bit of slow travel, immerse yourself in the culture and then feel, does it feel right? Then make a choice. Um, so, so yeah, I've, I've got a feeling that. Um, look to, uh, won't be too long. Uh, I'll also probably be doing a lot of speaking engagements.

[00:43:34] So from, um, from a wellbeing perspective, you know, there's huge advantages to our own wellbeing by getting rid of stuff. Um, and for those of you who are in a corporate environment, you know, the likelihood is that people around you are super busy. You know, they can't say busy anymore. It has to be super busy.

[00:43:54] And, you know, I would say 100 miles an hour is now the average speed limit, because every time you talk to someone, you know, how are you getting on? Oh, it's just mad. Yeah, it's crazy. It's 100 miles an hour. But there is a certain amount of design we've chosen. To be like that. And so, yeah, so I'll be doing a lot more talking both via Zoom and in person once we, once we come out of this last lockdown, fingers crossed.

[00:44:21] Ingrid: Okay. Thank you, Chris, for being on our podcast and being a guest and please come back when you've written that second book and come on the show again in a couple of years. I mean, I don't know how long it's going to take, but we'll have you back at some point. 

[00:44:35] Chris: Oh, I'd love to. I'd love to. Yeah, hopefully it doesn't take as long as this first one did.

[00:44:38] Um, but yeah, I'm, I'm in, I'm in the, uh, I'm in the zone now. So there's lots and lots that we can talk about in regards to, you know, minimalism and the mindset part of it, as well as the practical. Stuff. So there's room for lots and lots of us to continue to have the conversation. So I look forward 

[00:44:58] Ingrid: to it.

[00:44:59] All right. Well, we'd love to have you back. So thanks for being on the show and uh, yeah, you're welcome. Pleasure. Pleasure. So listeners has this podcast made you think, because that's what we want. We want you to think about all of these. Information we share with you. Does it resonate? Do you feel like I need to explore that a little bit?

[00:45:18] I maybe I'm going to read his book and see what it's all about. I would love to know more of the stories because we've just basically really only touched on a couple of stories in the book. So have a look at the show notes, check that out. So thanks so much for listening and we look forward to seeing you at next week's podcast when we talk about taking care of your stuff.

[00:45:42] So see you then.
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