A photo of a smiling woman, Carrie Rattle wearing glasses and a blue shirt
Episode 316 – Stopping overshopping with Carrie Rattle

Have you ended up with items in your home you can’t even remember buying? Do you have many brand new, never worn clothes with tags on in your cupboards? Are you overshopping on a regular basis and are you worried about money? Then this is the podcast episode for you. We have invited financial therapist Carrie Rattle to share her expertise about shopping addiction and how to stop overshopping.
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Transcript of this podcast episode
00:00
Have you ended up with many items in your home and you can't even remember buying? Do you have many brand new, never worn clothes with tags on in your cupboards? Are you over shopping on a regular basis, and are you worried about money? Then this is the podcast episode for you. We have invited financial therapist Carrie Rattle to share her expertise about shopping addiction and how to overcome over shopping.

00:39
You're listening to the declutter hook podcast, bringing you tried and tested no nonsense tips and advice from the leading experts in decluttering and organizing your home. Now here's your host Ingrid Jansen,

01:01
hello and welcome listeners. I'm Ingrid. If you're new to the declutter hub podcast, you're so welcome. What you'll find is that we try and find the fun factor in the serious business of decluttering, and if you've been here for a while, you know exactly what we mean. So thank you so much for listening. If you'd like to get involved in conversations related to this podcast. It all takes place in our free Facebook group. So come and join our lovely, warm and supportive community. Go to declutterhub.com, forward slash group to find out more. Thank you so much for having me Ingrid. Hello, cherry. Yes, a very warm welcome. I'm very delighted that you're here. We had, I was lucky enough to chat with you last week preparing this podcast episode, and ever since then, I've been buzzing to record this episode with you, because I think you have so much amazing information to share. And listeners, you might wonder, but you've, in the last couple of months, you've done a podcast about shopping addiction. You've had Brad Nelson, who talked about overcoming death. Carrie, trust me, is going to bring it all together, because she is. You know, I think you're one of the experts in this topic, aren't you? Carrie, there certainly aren't too many of me in the world, and I definitely work with an A large number every single year. So whether it's expert or not, I definitely have lots of experience, really and brilliant. So let I've got lots of questions lined up, because I've been diving into everything that you have on your website and everything. But let's start at the beginning. What is compulsive shopping or a shopping addiction? Sure, so most clients will self identify as shopping addicts over shoppers or compulsive shoppers. And compulsive shopping is different from impulse shopping. So I think it's fair to say that most people will probably impulse shop at one time or another. Yes, compulsive shopping is when you end up shopping so much that you are harming yourself in some way, which then becomes a behavioral addiction. So compulsive shopping comes from within Ingrid. So if you're impulse shopping, you may be walking by a store, or you know, you're you're scanning your social media. You see one thing you like occasionally and say, Oh, that's pretty cool. Let me investigate. With compulsive shopping, you start to get an urge, an itch, vibrate. You might feel anxiety inside your body. You might feel excitement inside your body, and you need to shop to help manage that body feeling and to help manage the emotions that are going through you quite often, a compulsive shopper also gets super excited Just even thinking about shopping, they get a high,

04:23
and then others get the high when they actually buy. So there's a difference. It's internal versus external, in terms of the triggering and where it's coming from. That's interesting, because many of our listeners know that I'm not a shopper at all, so if you like, if you put me and Leslie next to each other, Leslie loves to shop. She loves the brows. She buys herself new things on her. She's very good at decluttering. I'm immediately going to add this so she kind of keeps it in balance. I don't really enjoy shopping, but I actually I'm not.

05:00
I'm hearing to what you're saying, and I'm like, I actually impulsive shop last Saturday because I was gonna when my daughter to the shops. We don't go to the shops a lot at all. And I actually bought a blanket for my downstairs sofa on impulse. I wasn't planning on buying it. Now we have it. We're super happy with it,

05:19
but it was an impulse. But like I said, I don't even go to the shops in the first place because I don't. I feel that what I buy is enough and I don't need a lot. So I understand the difference now between impulsive and obsessive. It's a that's compulsive, that's interesting. So is compulsive shopping the same word as shopping addiction. Can you kind of interchange them, or are they different? So it it's interesting, some people who love to shop will voluntarily call them selves shopping addicts, or I have a shopping addiction, but it's in their minds. It's perceived as a positive way. It's like, I like shopping, you know. So those who come to me refer to themselves as shopping addicts, but for them, they can't control their shopping. So shopping addiction is used both ways, certainly in North America. And you know, compulsive shopping, however, is a more clinical term, more specific, and it is very clearly at a stage where you are harming yourself.

06:44
Now, has there been any research at all about this? Because I think if people shall, I just love going to the shops. You know, they kind of smile a little bit. And of course, we've been since the 60s. Marketing messages have been thrown out as the sales messages buy me. I'm better. I'm great. So has there been any research at all about how many people are addicted to shopping? Yes, there has, and it's it's approximately 17 million in the US alone. And I work with clients in Canada, as well, as, you know, in Europe and Australia. So, and I believe it's understated for a couple of reasons.

07:34
You know, it's perceived as the smiled upon addiction, because if you shop, you're helping the economy. So, so what is wrong with shopping? Right? So, research has been conducted. Some research would suggest that men and women equally are over shoppers. Some research suggests that women are predominantly over shoppers. I believe it's if it wasn't equal between men and women before it's becoming so I think women more voluntarily talk about it, because shopping is part of our identity in earlier generational roles. That's what women did right to take care of the home, buy clothes for the kids, that kind of thing. So I think it's higher than 17 million, because a lot of people don't understand that they are at a level where they're harming themselves, because they think harming themselves is having debt. But I can tell you, Ingrid, only 50% of my clients have debt.

08:41
Nice, so it's you can harm yourself by losing time. You can harm yourself by being a different kind of role model for your child than you want to be. You can harm yourself because you're having conflicts with your partner. You can harm yourself because you start ducking out of work when you feel stressed, because you need that fix. There are so many ways you can harm yourself that's beyond just money, and a lot of people don't realize that it's happening to them.

09:16
Okay, and you said 17 million I kind of felt quiet there for a moment, because that's a lot higher number than I thought you were going to say. So you say they're self identified. So has there never been like a research by any one into this subject? Then there has been research, and more and more of it is becoming prominent. There is some great research, and I believe it was out of Germany, a lot of PhDs from the US, as well as Germany, as well as a couple of other areas, and all these experts got together and decided to identify, what are the clear behaviors.

10:00
Of the compulsive shopper, and I will actually give you the name of that research for your podcast in written form and an attachment if you think your clients would want it, so

10:14
people are starting to clearly identify it and talk about what that that looks like in terms of everyday behavior versus regular shoppers. So more and more research is coming out about this, for sure, interesting and has it changed over the years? You think, has there been previously done research that can be compared to now, or is it kind of a field that's not really been explored until recently. You know it, it's been growing. A lot of the research goes back to, really the even the 1980s 1990s when consumerism became more evident and things started to take off. There's more now, I believe, because social media and smartphones that allow you to shop online, has allowed consumers to buy even more. So if their tendency was to over shop to begin with, it's now showing more frequently. And so I think the research is not only growing, but focusing on different aspects of it, like, you know, what might cause it, types of personalities, that kind of thing, yeah, yeah, interesting. So you have, because I looked on your website and you said I was a financial coach, and I'm a financial therapist, and you specialize in shopping addiction. So how did you end up being a financial therapist? How did you end up here?

11:48
So I won't go go through my entire history, but my purpose as a person since about the age of 13 has been to help women have an equal voice in the world.

12:03
And so, you know, I went through a whole career trying to show that women deserve to pay equity, and, you know, job flexibility, because, you know, they were caring for children. And after 30 years, I lifted my head up. We still didn't have pay equity, we're now at 82 cents compared to $1 that a man makes. And I thought, well, crap, Plan A didn't work, and it took me 30 years. So What's plan B? Okay, I'm going to become a financial coach to help women manage their everyday money better, so that even though they don't make as much, they can learn how to manage it. And then I met this wonderful woman, Dr April Benson. We started talking about money behaviors, and I learned that she was a psychologist. She just passed away. And also she was a compulsive shopper herself. So we started talking about this. I clinically trained under her. Her clients were just like my other financial coaching clients. They just had this compulsive behavior in addition.

13:18
And she said, Carrie, I want you to buy my business. I want you to take care of it for me. And so here I am, clinically trained by a woman who was an expert for sure, who really cared about her clients and knew firsthand what it was like. Yeah, and she's written several books, hasn't she? And you're, you're kind of trying to almost keep the legacy of her, and then, of course, your own whole body of work together to kind of educate and and train and coach, and mainly women, I've understood, but

13:54
in your body of work, right? Yeah, because, you know, compulsive buying shopping is spending money, right? And is it? Is all this spending serving you well as as a person? Is it? Is it helping you take care of yourself, save, retire, have enough money to give to charities that you want to and things like that, or is it going to stuff that is really serving no purpose? And so bringing the two bodies of work together, they actually fit hand in glove. And April and I were really excited about that when we when we discussed it. And so I'm happy to to bring this forward, and you know, a lot of my clients have regular therapists, right? But therapists don't typically deal with shopping addiction and they don't typically deal with money, so I plug a hole, and I'm just part of the team to help with these two things. Yeah.

15:00
Yeah, yeah, it's fascinating. So

15:03
are mainly your clients buying clothes? Is that what you mainly see is that the big problem is that clothing, or are there other categories that stand out? Because I mean, in our work as professional organizers and declutterers, Leslie and I both have, besides the declutter hub, we run our own professional organizing business. We both have worked in 1000s of homes with hundreds of clients. And we see, you know, we see it's, it's not only the clothes. It can be different things for different people. For some people, it is shoes or handbags or things with labels or craft items or home accessories, the candles and the what do you see with your clients? Is it mainly close, or is it again, an array of items, so you covered it beautifully? I would say predominantly, it's clothing and then often bags. But you know it, it runs the gamut, right? Including books, including plants, yeah, including artwork,

16:20
certain, certain books, like collections of books. So it really it there. There's something for everyone. And quite often it has to do either with what they're trying to address, like self esteem. So that might be where clothing really comes in, or a need to belong. So when you think about it, you know, collecting jewelry, if you collect a certain type of jewelry, where you can talk in the community about it, you feel like you belong, like you you know something about that jewelry like all the other people, and that's where it touches a different personal need. But you nailed it, it, it, there's quite an expansion of certain items that can be collected for sure. Yeah, I'm now, I'm listening to you, and I'm like, I'm really glad I'm a declutter expert.

17:12
I could talk days and days about decluttering and organizing and not about stuff, but I, I indeed, it makes me happy when I can talk about decluttering. So I can imagine, if somebody becomes an expert about jewelry in their community, they feel like, Oh, I'm, you know, I'm the woman in the know. And it gives a certain status as well, doesn't it? Yes, it really does. And you know, people are simply seeking that status through material items, as opposed to kind of going back out into the real world and earning status just by being who they are, the wonderful person they are, right? Yeah, yeah. So do we know how people end up with a shopping addiction? Because you know that it must be like with stuff, it's all the emotions that sit behind it. Is it the same for shopping addiction? I assume the answer is yes, but I would love you to tell more about that,

18:11
so you're right. You know, some some clients have had trauma

18:17
much earlier in their lives, and others often associate shopping with something pleasurable through childhood. Maybe it was special time with mom or dad. You know, maybe it was getting a fall wardrobe and and feeling great about it. So whatever shopping meant when someone starts to run into uncomfortable situations, then seeking something that used to make them feel good is a great way to sort of escape for a few minutes. So there are two parts to this behavioral addiction, there's the behavior, which is, the more you start shopping, the more it becomes your go to, the more it becomes a habit. And when you think about it, habits don't require a lot of thinking you just do like brushing your teeth. So that's the behavioral side of it, and the addiction side is needing that dopamine hit. And just like any addiction, after a while, you may need more and more of it. Yeah, yeah. So it starts with, I'm bored. Okay, maybe I'll just shop a bit then, okay, I felt good last time I shopped when I was bored. Now I'm kind of lonely. Let me, you know, just spend some time scrolling on my phone. So ultimately, it.

20:00
It. It's repeat, repeat. It begins to become subconscious. And you get to the point some of my clients, where they say they they feel like they had a blackout, where they're at the shopping cart and didn't even realize they were shopping. They're about to check out.

20:22
Tell subconscious it becomes Yeah, yeah. So they're just aimlessly wandering around with their shopping trolley. Putting stuff in doesn't even compute. It doesn't clog until they're actually some sort of wake up call when they're at the tilt and like, oh my gosh, I don't even remember putting it in my trolley. That's how far it can go yes, yeah, because you know, shopping becomes escape, or

20:49
a need to self soothe, or a need to take control back after a really bad day or week, all sorts of reasons that can drive us there to go shopping, just for even a few minutes, like on a phone, yeah, yeah, yeah. I definitely have more questions about that. So oh my gosh, listeners, I'm like, taking it all in. I have more questions for Kerry. Let's take a quick break and we're going to come back soon. Hi everyone, welcome back. I have absolutely like taking it all in. And during the break, Carrie said to me, Ingrid, am I not going? I'm like, no, no. Share. Share with us. We need to know all of this. We need to know how, because I want you to be able to go. Do I have these feelings inside me? Do I feel this? Do I recognize this? Because then if you at least recognize it, you can actually possibly do something about it, but if you're even unaware, I think self awareness is really, really important in this case as well. So no Kerry, please keep sharing with us all the fantastic information. So we were talking about, how do people end up with shopping addictions? It can be things from their youth. It can be loneliness, boredom, feeling stressed, feeling anxiety, a lot what we see as well when the clutter builds up in people's homes as well, obviously. So a lot of overlap about what you're sharing and what Leslie and I also know from be having worked in cluttered houses and with clients who have lots of clutter, and then there's a lot of emotion behind this. It's not just shopping, like the clutter is never just a clutter. And it's not like, oh well, I've got a lot of clutter. Let me put it in a bin bag and declutter. It's the same with shopping, where you can't just go, oh well, let me stop shopping. It's, it's, it's not that easy.

22:40
That's correct.

22:42
I have

22:44
many clients who have two or three formal degrees who will come to me and say,

22:53
I know I'm kind of smart, but I can't take control of this. What is wrong with me? Yeah,

23:03
yeah. And it's, you know, that's the rational side of us speaking, right? But you so correctly observe. It's emotional, yeah? And it some need, or a couple of needs are not getting filled in your life, and so shopping is becoming the go to mechanism to try to do that. Yeah, yeah. And what do you see the fallout is of having a shopping addiction, because she said, you know, only half of the people actually have debts. But what do you see happening with with people who

23:45
live in a home with a person who is addicted to shopping? What? What? What? What are the consequences? Yeah, so definitely a common theme is partnership. The partnership is starting to fray.

24:04
It may start to fray because the other partner sees boxes coming in on a regular basis, or the partner sees the credit card and it's mounting and they ask the shopper to stop, but they don't understand that the shopper just can't stop. So it it becomes, you know, a simmering level of anxiety and mistrust, right? That builds in a partnership, and quite often there is financial infidelity, which means the shopper, they may have their own income, so they may have a credit card that their partner never sees, and they are accumulating debt. So.

25:00
It is not a surprise for me to see a client with at least $100,000

25:05
in credit card debt not shared with a partner,

25:10
and sometimes the partner finds out, you know, for example, you go to buy a house, sell your house, buy a new house, or first house, well, your credit report is going to show that credit card, and if you if you are sharing credit scores to buy the house, it's one of those oh crap moments. Yeah, so you know. But what's not understood is people think shopping is just frivolous. People think, you know, shoppers shop because they're vain. It is so far from the truth so far. And because it's an addiction, you need the high and and so it takes work to help put the pause between that urge and acting while also feeling what you really need in life, because you're not getting what you deserve as a human being, emotionally. Yeah, yeah. Do you see also a lot of hidden purchases in our clients? Honest to you about that, they're like, Yo, I just hit a couple of bags because I don't, I can kind of still get away with the credit card, because it's not yet 100,000 but it's getting bad, so I'm just gonna sneak some bags in. Yes, yes. And I tell you, you know, people are getting pretty brilliant about it. One one guy would take his purchases to work,

26:44
put them in dry cleaning bags, walk in the house with his dry cleaning over his shoulder.

26:53
So, you know, I'm just picking up my dry cleaning, right? So then all this new clothing is sort of injected in the closet. Or, you know, a common one is somebody walks out and they're wearing something and, oh, no, this isn't new. I just haven't worn it in a couple of years, right? Or, Yes, bags hidden. Bags hidden in trunks of cars.

27:18
You know clients who when they receive by box from, you know, delivery, cut up the box in little pieces so that it can be thrown into the recycling bin and nobody knows what it was. It's amazing. They They know they can't stop, but they also don't want to have that confrontation, because it's scary, yeah, yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's really, it's like, it's all, I just the coins are dropping. It's like, it's really an addiction, isn't it? They try to masquerade it, they try to cover up. They know

27:55
what they're doing is, is not right, but they probably just can't stop to do it yes, and it has a massive impact on relationships, on finances, on Yes, not only relationship with your partner, but probably with your friends and your family. Do you see people who really go down down that rabbit hole of shopping addiction, that they that their social circle becomes smaller? Yes, yes.

28:24
Because what happens is that, let's say you have a bad day Ingrid, and you're kind of furious about this bad day. My guess is you talk to a partner or a friend, you vent, yeah, with with someone and and, you know they, they help soothe you. You feel better. It's like, okay, I've released it. Yeah. When, when you're an over shopper, you tend to go to friends and family less and rely on shopping as the support, yeah, but it doesn't really help, because shopping helps you suppress what you're feeling, not deal with it, yeah, yeah. And the more you suppress, the more you don't know how to deal with emotions, and the more

29:25
you don't become emotionally resilient. So when, when you hit a crisis or something, you don't know what to do, because you you don't have confidence in having dealt with things before. So it can be very, very damaging.

29:41
Do you think that the shopping on the internet has made this problem worse, or is it just that we know more about it now that we can compare, or is it

29:54
all of the above?

29:56
You know,

29:58
it's a really super.

30:00
Good question. We know that internet usage really bumped up over covid, right? Yeah, I have talked with some clients who felt they came out of covid over shopping but were able to get a grip faster again. Others were on the brink before covid And it just escalated. My guess is that it still it's more you know, because you used to have friction when you had to drive somewhere and find parking depending on where you live, and and line up right, checking out and that kind of thing. There was a little bit of friction still involved in wanting to, you know, cure that urge. Mm, hmm. Now when you can access internet and the phone, there's no friction.

31:01
No, I know it's super dangerous. And of course, we all have our cards connected to the shopping we get the email list that we we are on. So we're getting bombarded by so well, Leslie and I did a, did a podcast where I said, you know, just unsubscribe from the emails. Don't, you know, if you have a basket with things, don't click on Buy, leave it overnight and just have this moment of but it's so easy.

31:33
Instead of having to go somewhere, walk around, go through things, you just click, click, click, Oh, is there a size 14 or 16 or whatever size or eight? Yeah. Oh, that's the color I like. Click, click, click, and, boom, it's coming. Yes. And you know, the danger is sometimes, because sizes vary according to brands, some over shoppers will order two sizes,

31:59
but because they're always moving forward, seeking the next high, yeah, they forget to return the size that doesn't fit. Yeah? So there are some compulsive shoppers who are just seeking, seeking and not returning, which is where you guys come in too, right? Because you'll see some of that, you know? Yeah, I once helped the client just do a bunch of returns, because it's a build up. And she said Ingrid, I know it sounds crazy that I need your help to do these returns, but by returning all this stuff, I've saved so much money that it was worth you coming into my house and helping with me with this because, and of course, over time that I've been working with her, the shopping is far more targeted, you know, I you know, because she's got a better idea of what she has in her closet, also for her children. So we've been managing to but in the beginning it was like, Oh, wow, my job was today doing returns. But she was like, You've helped me so much, because I'm going to get eight or 900 pounds back. You cost me this for the day. So it was worth it, because otherwise this stuff would have been in my house and I would have had to declutter it because I couldn't return it anymore. Yeah? You, you You and I are a continuum. Yeah, right, yeah. You know you, you help, and you help them see what they have, what they didn't use, what they do use, yeah? And helps them target their shopping, which is brilliant, right? And even when they're shot, shopping is more targeted. If they can't stop, then they start entering my realm. So it's like, we're a fluid team. Yeah, right, yeah, yeah, yeah. I believe it. I believe it completely. So if people are listening to this and they're like, I think I a lot of this resonates with me. What can they do about it? How do you do? What do you do? If the people, if the listeners, are out there, going, Yeah, I do that. I put stuff in my thing. I hide stuff from my partner. I've got debt. I've got what do you do? So I have four tips

34:19
that will get get everybody started. Okay, the first one is to ground yourself. So what does that mean?

34:28
You know, do something not not very harmful by just calculating your time that you spend browsing and shopping every week. No judgment, right? A lot of people are afraid of money. So that's why I'm saying, calculate your time spent, because a lot of people are busy, professionals with kids and like, Who has time? So find how many hours you could be getting back.

35:00
Back. Second of all, if you're worried about overspending, give yourself a spending limit. Yep, sometimes you'll go over it, but if you have a spending limit, it makes you think twice. Versus if you had no spending limit, you would just keep on going right

35:22
and focus on people, not products. So if you want to give somebody something, give them a hug, give them something homemade, give them your time, as opposed to giving them a product. So that's number one. Ground yourself. Number two is shut out the noise. So you talked about this unsubscribing, right? I can tell you that unsubscribing for an over shopper is really scary.

35:56
It's like but, but, but, but, what if I don't get this sale notification or, you know, so it's really, it's like losing a friend. But here's what I would say, to shut out the noise, everybody, take some of the emails that you get, the ones that you're not really close to, the ones that aren't your favorite brands. You can't even remember what you bought from this email. Unsubscribe from those start, because I can tell you, an over shopper has somewhere easily 50 emails a day, and talk about overwhelm and driving yourself crazy, like trying to catch up on your email, so unsubscribe, and also texts and that personal shopper, if you happen to have one, you gotta break up.

36:53
I know you love them, but let them know when you need something, you'll get back to them

37:01
and your phone. Let's talk about your phone a bit.

37:05
Do not take your phone into your bedroom at night, even if you're worried about a teenager who has to call in fine, put it outside your door and put the ringer on people think that browsing and shopping at night is self soothing and calming. It is not it creates anxiety. It affects your sleep. If you can, when you walk in the door,

37:32
put your phone down by a small table by the door

37:37
and only pick it up when you need to respond to something so it starts shutting out the noise and reduces temptation for you. The third, manage your stress in different ways. When you are Hungry, Angry, Lonely or Tired, halt you are going to shop.

38:01
So shopping, buying for yourself, is not self care. That's something that a lot of over shoppers think is it's not have a bubble bath, take a walk, go hug your pet, call a friend, get your nails painted, whatever you want to do real self care, because shopping is not it, and take a moment to have gratitude every day for what you do have.

38:34
If you ate three meals today, you are probably better off than a large percentage of the population in the world.

38:43
And then the fourth point is be cynical. There is a great website called Tina T i n a.org

38:54
Truth in advertising. And there are some big brands that all of you will recognize that have misled the public in their advertising about whether they had sales or not, or entertainment videos where they didn't put hashtag ad in the video, and they should have, because it was all about selling a product. So I encourage everyone to think twice about when you're buying is it really for you, or are you just making some big retailer more profitable?

39:34
Well,

39:35
listeners, there you go. I love your top tips. Thank you, Carrie, I'm on board with all of them because, you know, we all have far too much stuff, and you know, we rather want to spend it with our friends and our family and doing things that we love to do. And all that over shopping creates so much work and clutter and.

40:00
Time and energy to look at it, move it, take care of it, swap it around, declutter from your house at some point, while you could be doing all the things. And we always, you know, a lot of people say, Well, I wish I could be crafting, or I wish I would be able to go in all day. Well, if you curb that spending, you could do all those things, because you would have the time, the energy, the money to do all of it. So your four tips are absolutely brilliant. Now, if people are thinking to yourselves, hm, I've listened to everything, but I'm not sure if I if I'm overspending and if I'm a shop, have a shopping addiction. You have a good tool on your website, haven't you? I do? Yes,

40:42
it's a very simple screening, and it's, you know, six or seven questions, so you can do it probably in 30 seconds. There are two of them you can download. One is more around how you think about shopping, and the other is more around how you behave in your shopping, and you can score them. It will give you an idea if you're close to being an over shopper. And I can tell you, most of my clients, the scores are typically one to five. Most of my clients are at fives and fours. Yeah, I did this because, although I knew, yeah,

41:23
of course I did. Because I do love a little survey, quiz thing tool. I'm like, No, I'm good. I'm good. I've got far too many ones.

41:35
Oh, yeah, you're good. You're not ever going to need me in Ingrid.

41:39
So what can people do if they're like, You know what? I'm fine, but my partner, friend, best mate, mom, neighbor, or anybody I know they're there. I can see things are not going well there. How do you talk to people? How do you broach this subject? Oh, very gently,

42:04
because whether they are still in denial, they sort of know they just aren't ready to face it. And over shoppers have incredible shame and guilt, and they know sort of what they're doing to you as a partner, but they just can't stop themselves. So it's it's approaching it very, very gently,

42:39
having the discussion having a talk about, how could shopping be curbed, sort of one, one item at a time. So is clothing the issue? Okay, let's just talk about clothing. And what do you need help with to buy less and if it's introducing money, like how the shopping is affecting the household income and expenses, sharing with the understanding that most over shoppers don't deal with money, money is foreign, so you're sort of talking to them in a foreign language. Literally, pretend you're teaching somebody Japanese. Okay,

43:26
so you've gotta be gentle about showing Here's what comes in after taxes. Here's where all the expenses are taken care of. Here's what we have left to spend. And guess what, you by yourself are spending over 100%

43:42
but without judgment, kind of sharing, because then you start giving an over shopper, learning boundaries and helping them with their behaviors, when you make them report into you every day, when you cut off their spending entirely. And I get it, if you're in incredible debt as a team, maybe you have to cut them off, but they still need help. But the more you cut them off, the more you restrict them. They're adults. You are diminishing them. You are treating them like children, and ultimately, they will find some other way to rebel. So it has to be gentle, bit by bit. And the wonderful book that I use, which doesn't cost a lot of money, guys, read it yourself, if it's your partner who's an over shopper, first it's to buy or not to buy, why we over shop and how to stop by Dr April Benson, it will give you insight, and then share it with your partner and see if they'll read it, because that will let you know if they're interested in learning how to change their behaviors yet or not.

45:00
Yes, absolutely brilliant. You know, I have so many more questions written down, but I think we need to leave it there, because

45:09
my heart and my brain is full with all of the fantastic information you've shared with us. Carrie,

45:17
where can people find if people would like to know more about you? Find the tool, read, you know, blogs, see some of your videos. Where do people go? Sure, I have a lot of video tips on instagram@behavioralsense.com,

45:36
and my website, which covers all sorts of different programs and just general information as well as the fun quizzes we talked about is behavioralsense.com as well. And I know you're going to have them spelled out below, because I use the American form of behavioral guys. So sorry about that.

45:58
And sense is c, e n, t s, right, exactly. It's how you behave with your money, behavioral sense, okay, brilliant again. Thank you so much, listeners. Wow,

46:14
has this podcast cast maybe made you question, if you're struggling with this topic, have you identified actually I'm good? Or, Oh, I'm on a slippery slope here. I need to maybe curb my spending a bit. Or, Oh, I'm much closer to what Carrie her examples are giving me. And I actually need to do something here. We hope that this podcast was informative for you, that you've learned a lot that you are ready, hopefully, to take next steps, or maybe you're not, and maybe, like, you know what, I'm going to start with reading the book that Carrie suggested. We'll put the link in the show notes as well and and maybe take it from there. But thank you for listening and for being here, Carrie, thank you so much again for your time. It's been an absolute pleasure to have you here on the podcast today. Thank you. I have great compassion for all of my clients, and my lasting comment will be there is hope. Thank you.

47:18
Thanks so much for listening to the declutter hub podcast, don't forget to subscribe to us in your podcast player so you don't miss an episode and we'll see you next week.
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Episode 385 – Life Skills for Kids with Katie Kimball

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