A photograph of Hester and Kelly Grainger smiling into the camera
Episode 286 – Is there a connection between ADHD, Autism and clutter with Kelly and Hester Grainger

In the Declutter Hub we are proud to have a community that understands neurodiversity. Whilst we recognise the frustration it has or still does cause for many people, we’re all about embracing the challenges and learning to build an environment that helps people live their most fulfilled lives. This week it is neurodiversity appreciation week, so what better week could there be to welcome not one but two amazing guests. Hester and Kelly Grainger and their children are all neurodivergent and in today’s podcast we’re going to dive into their story.
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Transcript of this podcast episode
00:00
At the declutter hub, we are so proud to have a community that completely understands neurodiversity. Whilst we recognize the frustration it has are still does cause for many people, we're all about embracing the challenges and learning to build an environment that helps people live their most fulfilled lives. This week, it's neurodiversity Appreciation Week. So what better week would there be to welcome not one but two amazing guests, Hester and Kelly Grainger and their children are all neurodiverse. And in today's podcast, we're gonna dive into their story

00:39
you're listening to the declutter hub podcast, bringing you tried and tested no nonsense tips and advice from the leading experts in decluttering and organizing your home. Now here's your host, Lesley Spellman.

01:02
Hello, and welcome, listeners. I'm Lesley, we're delighted you're here to join us as part of your decluttering journey. So whether you're brand new today or have been listening in for ages, we want to say thank you so much for being here. It means so much to Ingrid and now that you turn up every week to listen to and support us. While we talk all things decluttering and organizing. We'd love to help more people with their quest for a clutter free home and our podcast is a fantastic way for people to be inspired to take action. We have a favor to ask. If you like what you hear, be sure to hit the follow subscribe or like button on your podcast player. share us with your friends or share your thoughts on the podcast by leaving a review. So welcome Hester and Kelly, thank you so much for being on the declutter podcast. It's very exciting to have two people here. Buy

01:50
one get one free here.

01:53
Very welcome. Nice to see you.

01:54
It's certainly it's see. So we went just before we came live, I was chatting to and saying we've done quite a lot before on the podcast for ADHD, which goes down and absolute storm because many people within our communities live with some kind of neurodiversity diagnosed in some instances, going through a diagnosis with others and kind of suspect in perhaps they have with other people might be their children might be there might be other family members. So neurodiversity is definitely a thing within the D cultural community. But what I loved about you too, is you've taken it much deeper, you have your own consultancy, you're going out there, you're talking, you're flying the flag for neurodiversity. And so I really wanted to sort of tap into your expertise. When I was doing the research for this podcast, I went on to Instagram, Hester. And the first post that I saw really resonated with you. And it was about something that you had been told as a child when you were choosing your GCSEs. So do you want to tell us that story? Because it really hit home for me? Yeah,

02:54
I think it was, I remember it being my GCSEs. And without knowing I had ADHD, I wasn't diagnosed till I was 43, I kind of realized looking back now that I had found ways to kind of make life a little bit easier. So I thought, Well, I'm not gonna go for the really crazy hard GCSEs. I'm not super academic, and I really want to do drama. I wanted to be a TV presenter since I was really, really young. And I went up to my teacher and I said, so I'm going to choose drama. And she went, No, no, you know, and I was like, What do you mean, you're not? And she said, No, you don't need to be any more confident you're already really chatty, you already speak a lot. Like let's give other people a chance who who need it. And it was like, my GCSE options, like they're quite serious, important things. And it just kind of made me think that was, you know, people with ADHD, even from way back then, you know, you get these negative comments, I think there's something like, before a child is 12, they have 20,000 more negative comments, if they've got ADHD than their peers, from other adults or teachers, etc. or parents. And it's just those things that kind of just make you think, what do we know, I've got too much confidence, so I don't need to do drama GCSE. And I didn't do it. And I look back and I just think, you know, it's not a big deal. I wasn't going to become an actor or something like that. But it just sort of you just wonder how many other children undiagnosed ADHD are kind of sent on a different path, because teachers just didn't realize,

04:15
yeah, because it's looking at your personality and saying that your personality effectively is not good enough, or it's too bold, or it's too quiet or whatever. And I think it's probably because things were very misunderstood. I mean, you're, you know, you know, I've talked on the podcast before to my son, he's younger than you are. And it was still misunderstood. Then when he was a teenager as well, because he was very similar. I was kind of always talking to some people loved that about him. And some people load that about him, and it would very much depend on who he was dealing with. So, but I think certainly those that judgment is there from a very early age and that takes you through. So tell us a little bit then about your diagnosis and yours as well. Kelly, how did that unfold then? When did you You think that something's not right here or something? I'm different or whatever? How did you decide to go for a diagnosis? I

05:06
guess I'll start with actually, I guess it was it was when we were going through the process with our children. And this was back in 2019, that we kind of reached that stage where we were told to actually have you thought about autism for both of them. And he'd been ongoing for a number of years. With our son, it started with kind of his eating habits, his kind of lack of variety in what he was eating. And things just started to resonate with me. And I remember a particular one time, my wife, Esther, so my wife, she's here, send me a message, text Michelle's way work at the time, outside of the UK. And it just said, here's some feedback from the psychologist, what do you think? And I kind of read this message. And I thought, Okay, that's interesting. And I replied back to hold on, is this about our son? Or is this about me? Because if it sounds like me, isn't this what we're all like? And she goes, No, we're not. And I think that's when the penny dropped for me. And we I came home, we talked about it. And we decided that I should pursue a diagnosis as well. Because for me, I need to be either 100% in the no or not. So I just kind of handle the fact that maybe I'm autistic. Oh, well, I had to know for sure. And if I was autistic, okay, that may or may sort of helped me answer some of the many questions I had over the years. If I wasn't, then maybe I kind of still need to keep looking. What is it, and that's kind of where my diagnosis journey started. And we kind of went through the process, I spoke to my GP, talk to her about why I think I might be autistic, she could see that I clearly done my research, and the process has been through our children. So she took it seriously. And some GPS don't. And that's why I think if you're going to your GP you need to have, you know, be armed with lots of information knowledge, because then they know you, you've taken it seriously. And then we went from there. And you know, the end of the year to those 99. I received my formal diagnosis of being autistic and then a year later with ADHD, right,

07:07
so you're both then chaos, and you've got ADHD and autism.

07:13
I'm autistic and have ADHD. Yeah. Okay. And Hester,

07:17
you've just got ADHD. I've got Yeah,

07:20
and that's exactly what the kids say, you've just got ADHD.

07:24
How disappointing that you only have one

07:26
special gang, aren't you even a musical sounds? Yeah. And, and the children were diagnosed with ADHD, you know, there's often a lot of I hate the word comorbidities. So we'll call it co conditions, but there's a huge overlap on the neurodiversity spectrum. So the chances are, you don't just have one condition. Like if you've got a neurodivergent array, the chances are, you may well have another condition. So being autistic and having ADHD is not uncommon. And then it was during the lockdown, wasn't it that we were sort of homeschooling as everybody else was. And we were just sort of noticing that the processing wasn't quite there. They're both enduring Hudson our children are 12, Hudson's 12 and India's 14 And they're both super bright, super switched on, but just sort of the homeschooling we've just like, you know, I'm gonna be doing some math to harden you going over it again, instead of Hudson just like what and we just realized that just the almost the ADHD of the sort of slightly inattentive away with the fair, he's just was there. So we ended up getting him diagnosed. And India at the same time, didn't we? Because there's a lot of similarities. And then during the assessment, the psychologist said to me, you've got ADHD. And I was like, No, and she was like, oh, maybe you should look into it. And that was the first time I'd genuinely ever thought about it. I just thought, I didn't feel different. Like, you know, I felt different. I wasn't zoomed. Everybody felt like me. And then I realized they don't. So here we are. So yeah, I don't know. Is it 43? You're diagnosed as autistic at 44? Weren't you ADHD at 45?

08:50
And so do you think having that knowledge now in your armory for both yourselves and your children, has made you do anything differently?

08:58
Yeah, I think looking back parenting, we've always parented in a really like autism friendly way, without even realizing it. We're both very chilled out when we're both just like, Okay, if you don't wanna wear socks today, that's fine. If you if I need to rewatch that, again, because I didn't feel soft enough. Or if you need a different teaspoon, or whatever it is, it's like we've always sort of done that. So I think, looking back, we've been very neurodivergent friendly. But I think the having that knowledge, and like you said you just wanted to know 100%, didn't you one way or

09:26
the other, I think that you think has helped us knowing because we know, ourselves in our children. So kind of we've almost then increased our understanding and awareness of University of autism and ADHD. So we kind of understand what the characteristics can be what some of the traits, what the challenges are for them, but also, they're amazing children. So we kind of know that and I think that helps us where we kind of almost, we talked about kind of picking your battles. So we're not too rigid in our thinking and our kind of, you know how we parent them, because we know actually some things aren't going to work for them. That might be work for other parents and other families. And You've almost got to kind of parent your children, the way that it suits your family. I think we kind of go through the process, don't we think well, how did our parents parent us? And then will our friends parent their children like this? Well, we should be parenting our children like them as well, because that's what they're all doing. But actually, it doesn't work for each family. And I think if the families kind of looked at themselves and thought, what is our family? What is our makeup? What are our children like? Let's family or parent in the best way that helps everybody thrive, rather than Well, this is the rulebook, we must follow the rulebook. And I think we kind of caught in the trap, particularly today, in that we're very rigid in kind of rule books. And this is how parenting books tell us you should parent, whereas I think we went back to our parents, you didn't have that people just parented their children. It was we've almost got caught in this trap off. There's a rulebook to it now. And if they don't fall away, our children are going to fail. And we really fearful of, well, if we don't parent our children, right? They're not going to grow up the right way. There's lots of ways they can fail. But I don't think there was that in the past. So I think we need to be a bit more relaxed. And I think that's helped us understand because we go ah, that's why, yeah, let's be too hard on that. And also, yeah, from our childhoods, yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

11:17
There's a lot of that going on. I've always said to my daughter, you know, she'll interrupt a lot. And I was like, I could get it. I do it all the time. Even now, as an adult, or my son's still, you know, quite scared of the dark and things. I'm like, Yeah, four to six, still scared of the dark. And I remember not being able to tell my mom that I couldn't go upstairs on my own, because I thought something terrible was gonna happen, which I now know, is catastrophizing, which is a huge part of intrusive thoughts for ADHD. You know, I didn't know any of that. So I think we're quite almost sympathetic, because we're not we because we're like, yeah, we get it. So we are, we're quite, we're quite children, we think so

11:48
interesting. And I think one of the things if it's okay with you, one of the things that I saw on your Instagram was that you talk about how you ADHD showed up this week. And so, and I just thought it was really, it's just so relatable for so many people. So if it's okay, I'd love to chat about your how your ADHD shows up. Pesta. And then how your autism shows up when Kelly if that's all right, just like a few kind of snippets of things that happen in a week. And you go, Oh, that's why that is. And then we're gonna go a little bit deeper after the break. But it has to do you want to get started in terms of So what sort of things how does your ADHD but you shared a couple of things, but just delve a little bit deeper into some of the things that go ADHD does in your life?

12:29
I think it's really important to share these things. Firstly, I have, it takes courage to go, Oh, my God, how long did I lose my phone for yesterday? Like 20.

12:39
It was in the house. And

12:41
I was just like, it might and then you like retrace your steps. And we've got like 360 check, and I've not lost it. And that's quite standard practice. There was a really great example, I shared on Instagram where we ages ago about this go kart, I won this go kart randomly in the competition, like 10 years ago, 11 years ago, a little tiny bit of it pinged off in the garage somewhere. And we've thought I will find it like six years later, we're like zooming up. And that really can't use the go kart because the wheel will fall off. Finally worked out what the piece was we took it went to Whole Foods didn't wait. And they were like, This is the piece it cost like two pounds to you about three minutes to fix. And our son's back couldn't go go. And I was like, that's such a good example of ADHD and going, Oh, my gosh, this is going to take so long. And you know, there's almost that guilt. And that shame attached a lot to a lot of ADHD stuff. Like I can see something on the stairs that needs to go upstairs or on the floor. And I'm just literally like, I'll drop something. And I'll be like, I've not got the energy to pick that up. And we don't live in squalor or anything. But it's that almost that thing where you're just like, I can see it. And I'm just looking at it thinking Why can't I pick that up? Washing is a huge one. How many times a week does our washing that respond?

13:46
A lot, we put it in we forget about it, we then have to put it on again. The next day we forget about it, put it on the next day. I

13:52
think I record like four days. Like it's all lovely and clean. And you wash it every time. Yeah, yeah. But it's just that kind of ways of it showing up is just can be quite exhausting. And like I'm an ADHD coach. And I often say to my clients, it's okay, that these things happen, because actually then we look at everything as we have achieved. We've achieved loads this week and last week, but it's those kinds of micro guilt, micro feelings with ADHD that comes that you're just like, oh my god, you know what I've say really stupid things to people won't I like really random? Like, lots of examples. It just really, and we're just after them like, Oh my God, why did I say that? And now I know what it is. I'm fine with it. And I'm just like, that was me. There we go. Hope they don't think I'm that random, but it is what it is. You can't do anything about it. And I think the

14:37
point about you know, we need to talk about it more. Because if you take Kestrel myself, you know, we weren't diagnosed until early mid 40s. And we have no idea you know, others may have done around us, we don't know, but nobody has mentioned it. And I think until you start hearing other people talking about it and their traits and characteristics and the challenges but also the things that they're really good at. That's when our people go oh my god Hold on, that's me. And they almost have this kind of aha moment. And they go, I never, I just thought everybody was like that, you know, like me at work, I just I had certain challenges at work. And I, I just assumed that everybody else in my office, struggled with the same things. But they were just really much better at hiding it than I was another cop. They're good at hiding this, they must be really struggling underneath and have loads of anxiety. They didn't, but I thought they did. And it wasn't until the diagnosis, I kind of started to unpick things and going, Oh, wow. Okay, so that's, that's me. And that's other people. So I think the more you talk about it, the more people go, I have no idea, I now need to go on a journey and find out for myself. And I think that's what I'm talking about is really, really good. But also given examples of what are some of the challenges? What are some of the strengths? What are some of the things that affect you day to day? And then people go, Oh, wow, I just thought everybody was the same. But like,

15:51
I guess, I think it's so important. And it's interesting that you, you hadn't really thought about it until you went through your diagnosis, your diagnosis with your children, which is very common as well. And then the kind of light bulbs start to go on. A lot of people come into our communities come in because of clutter because of disorganization in their home. And, you know, I've been working with people for 13 years in their home, and you've worked with people with ADHD, but it's only very recently that I would feel competent enough where the client to go, have you thought about the fact that you may be neurodivergent. And that might be what's causing some of your problems. And why don't you go and look at that, because it was kind of this thing that was, it would have been considered to be rude to raise, I wouldn't do that with everybody would only be if it felt appropriate, and how close I was to them. But it felt rude almost to say something like that, or to raise it. But I think in our community now people because it's so widely spoken about. And because it's so prevalent in our communities with so many people, the light bulbs are going on, and people are like, Oh, I get it. But so that might come from a diagnosis for your children, it might it might come from being in the community where people understand. And soon as you've got that empathy and that coming together, it makes you feel so much braver to then go, okay, you know, we talk a lot about kindness as well. And, you know, you need to know that people with ADHD are the kinds of neurodiversity and brilliant other things, you know, to me, and it doesn't mean to say that your life is over, because you've got this thing, you're not great at that bit. But you're really good at this bit. And it's about finding the balance, and it's trying to kind of smooth and smooth the edges off a little bit of the things that you're not so good at and enhance the ones that you know, finding that balance. So yeah, no, it's I love what it's become that the awareness now is there. We're only just getting there. Of course we are. There's still people who, you know, there's a backlash as well, people like What a load of nonsense all these people are so many people with ADHD now, not understanding how much of a big impact that's having on the people that are finally seeing the light a little bit in terms of their diagnosis. So for me, it can only be a good thing. But it is about having that knowledge and trying to work stuff out. As you say,

17:56
I think there's also that balance just a quick really quickly jump in is that balance just because you've left your washing on threes on this week, doesn't that mean you've got ADHD just because you lose it doesn't mean you have ADHD, you need to have all these sort of examples in awareness from before the age of about 11 or 12. You know, I was told I had baby brain, it's like the kids were like 10. At this point, I was like, I haven't got baby brain. But the executive function is a huge challenge. And so I'm not surprised at all that there'll be a huge amount of people who are really struggling with the clutter, and everything because it takes us a lot to make sure we don't live like that, doesn't it? Because it doesn't matter at all to have loads of clutter around. But it's quite easy with you end up with two piles that are growing around

18:36
the house really, and particularly is that you know, a lot of people in our communities are a little bit older. Got a lot of women in our communities as well. Masculine is a big thing, isn't it for women, people have very much been used to masking for many, many years, and finding their own strategies and their own ways to cope with things. And so So yeah, what about So Kelly, autism? So how does that show up in your week? I'd love to know, because it's something that I have worked with people with autism. And as with every person, what is it, you know, the jobs that we do, there's no one size fits all just because someone's got ADHD, just because someone's got autism, there are some strategies that are fairly common. But a person is a person and they're presenting a different way. And so, but what kinds of things have shown up for you, and how do you manage to kind of counterbalance those? Yeah,

19:22
I guess where do I start? I mean, the first thing I would say is we like to refer to as kind of autistic people who have autism because we can't attach to them. It's not like a virus coming in. Are you born with it? So you know, for me that there are many, many things and it really depends on the day, the situation and the levels of anxiety I'm at. But I think for me anxiety plays a massive part in my life day to day I'm anxious about everything. You know, from the minute I wake up, when and when I do talks, I talk to people about you know, on an anxiety level stress level, if you think that kind of nought to 1010 being the highest, a neurotypical person Wake up. And maybe throughout the day, they'll be on a two or three on the scale. And they'll have kind of elements of stress or anxiety throughout the day and get to a four or five, and then come back down again. If you're autistic, more often than not, you wake up at an eight or nine. Because you're really trying to think what is going to happen today? How am I going to control what my day is going to bring? Who am I going to meet? What are they going to say to me? What am I going to say back to them? And then for me, I'm working out different scenarios for different situations. If I know I've got a meeting with somebody, and then thinking forward about trying to pre plan and prepare, what are they going to ask me? Okay, if they asked me this, my answer is going to be that they're then going to ask me a question, follow up question like that, on my answers wanting to have another answer. So I'm always coming up with lots of things to try and control my day. And then if the day doesn't go as according to my plan that I've kind of planned, it's incredibly frustrating, and I get really anxious about it. And it could be something really minor, somebody else, like we might go shopping. And we'd say, well, we're going to three shops. And we get to the shopping center. And we've done three shops, and in my head, I'm thinking great, we're going there. And Hester might turn around and go, Ashley, I just want to go there, and then just check something out. And I just can't cope with it. I'm like, but we were going to do three. And for a lot of people, it might sound really trivial. But for me, because that's the way my brain works, I've almost psyched myself up to go into three stores. And so kind of anxiety leading to that kind of planning, that having to be organized all the time. Everything kind of has to be perfect, not just in the things that I do. But the things that Hester and the family do. So if they do, something's not perfect, that's really frustrating, which happens a lot. But I don't do anything perfect either. But I need to try and make things perfect. And you can probably imagine that's incredibly tiring, both physically and mentally. Because I'm constantly trying to strive for this perfection every single day. And I talk about kind of my autistic brain and my ADHD brain, and they almost kind of fight with each other. Because my autistic brain wants to perfection, organized structured routines, my ADHD browser, oh, we'll just leave it to the last minute, we'll do it then. And if I do that, it makes my autism brain even worse. So the anxiety goes up. So almost I can't when things like you know, social communication, I don't enjoy one to one. Communication. You know, when I'm when I'm working, and I talk to large groups or audiences, I don't have to speak to one person. So I can just talk to the room as what's the one I find quite difficult, because trying to think of questions to ask. And it ends up being an interview, if I'm honest, I'm interviewing that person, rather than having like an everyday conversation, because I thought of four or five questions in my back pocket that I'll pull out after every time they answer. So it's things like that it's you know, sometimes it can be a bit blunt, a bit too honest.

22:52
I never ever asked him how I look, if I am not loving. in a mean way, you'll never mean but then also when you then give me a compliment, which is very often I then know that that's really genuine as well. So it's like, because I just get the complete honest, yeah, we've been together for years. And we're like, any language

23:09
as an English language. We're the worst. We never ask. We never mean what we say do we? So people always say, Oh, what do you think they'll be honest with me? Or somebody at work? Could be What do you think about this piece of work? You know, be honest, tell the truth. And you tell them the truth. And then they think, Well, why did you tell me the truth? Because you asked me to. So I think it's sometimes very black and white, very literal. You've asked me to be honest, I'm going to be honest. But actually, you didn't want me to be honest. So we're very vague with our language. And that makes it really difficult for neurodivergent people, particularly for autistic because that vagueness that kind of not really saying what you mean, it kind of trips us up, and we're like, does she want me to answer that? Does she not? Or did he really want me to go over there? Or, you know, oh, no, I didn't want you to say things like that. And I remember I used to, I used to be site work, I was quite intimidating, quite intense. And I think one of those reasons was that a lot of autistic people, not not everyone, but many find it difficult with that kind of constant eye contact, sort of maintaining eye contact one to one. And the reason I explained about why I find it tricky is that when I'm talking to somebody, I have to process the words they're giving to me. But then I find it really difficult to do that. If I'm always having to look at your face and try and work out what your facial mannerisms, your tics, what are you thinking? So I'm not always listening properly. So what I tend to do is if the person is talking to me, I kind of look away, but slightly listen to the words, and then I'll turn back and answer and they've given kind of the answer they're looking for. But they might be thinking, Oh, he's disinterested, he's being really rude. He's not looking at me. So other times, I'll know that and I think right, I must look at that person. So then I'm talking I'm just staring into your your eyes, and you can feel the uncomfortableness and you're scaring me now. You're quite intense and I'm like, Why can't when you are saying I'm too intense or I'm not interested, I don't know which way to go. And

25:02
also, I think I think there's like you're really tall, which sounds really silly, but then see, like, if you're always leaving, and you don't mean to be intemperate, you're not intimidating, or you but it's that

25:11
I think it's these stereotypes kind of talking, it's an a very kind of, to the point, if somebody asked me a question, I won't go around the house, they'll just tell them what they want to hear. So it's all these kinds of things bundled up on a day to day basis. But I think you know, that that brings with it lots of positives as well. So I can be very organized, I can kind of hyper focus. You know, I'm quite a good kind of thinker. So I'm quite creative and innovative and thinking about things in a different way, which is good in some aspects. But in some companies I worked for, they didn't necessarily want you to think differently. They're like, well, that's not how we think about things here, we think about this way. So

25:50
it's going to be very dependent on who you're working with, of course, didn't mean I'm how they, you know, present or live their life. Well, I'm going to do I'm so I'm so interested, I'm kind of listening to anything. Other, you can't help but have these conversations and go try to do that. Well, you know, so you're always trying to relate it to yourself, aren't you? And but let's go to a little break, we're going to come back, I really want to delve into some of the other things that we've spoken about. And I want to talk as well about because there is this strange mix of impulsivity, you know, just talking about the shopping scenario that you gave us there. How do you then marry up the kind of impulsivity with the rigidity and I'd like to know about that when that's happening in your both of those things together in your brain, Kelly. So let's go to a break and pop back in a moment. Okay. Welcome back. So thank you so much. This has been so completely fascinating. And how do you then marry up Kelly? And Hester, because of course, you're both living together. So you live in this together? The impulsivity side of ADHD, which is something that happens with many people from an ADHD perspective, and the kind of rigidity is that the right kind of term was that what kind of perfectionism you called it as well? Yeah.

27:02
90 of the impulsiveness. Okay, not knowing what's going to happen that change that immediate pain that you notice. So

27:08
you impulsive but nervous about being impulsive? So how does that work then? Or does impulsivity not form part of your ADHD brain? Yes,

27:18
it's really interesting does and we ate each other on those bands each other. There were lots of impulse decisions impulse buys. And then we look back and go, Why didn't we do that? Because it's that kind of dopamine hit. It's that dopamine seeking and

27:30
needed both? Do we don't stop each other? Like,

27:34
oh, God, I'll do it. And it's almost that kind of, it's, I suffer the consequences afterwards. So I can't say no, I'd really like to do that. I want to go out, I want to do this. Let's go shopping. And then afterwards, maybe I'm just completely exhausted. So it's almost a balance of Do you know what I still want to do things like that, that are impulsive. But I know. And the good thing is, I now know that if I do something, maybe I will be, you know, exhausted when I when I've done that. Whereas before, I wouldn't know and we used to talk about why are you always so tired when you go for these, you know, when you're working for a company, and you have to do like award ceremonies or customer events after a day's work? And I'd be exhausted for two days. Today. Is it something you've eaten? Did you drink too much? Are you allergic to something? And it's not it's that high state of alert all the time that you just want you out? So I kind of have that balance? You know, I tend to follow his lead with the impulsiveness. And I'm quite relaxed. And I say okay, yeah. And then maybe I'm just exhausted throughout the rest of the evening, but I'll still go and do it because I like to still do things. Yeah, but I'm just aware now that you know, there will be consequences, but I'm, I'm happy to manage those.

28:41
I've always kind of wondered, I've seen it at play, but it's just to kind of understand a little bit more from your perspective is really interesting. And rejection sensitivity is another one as well that I think is lesser known. So how does that unfold in your lives?

28:59
So rejection sensitive dysphoria, which is also RSD for short, a lot is on tick tock now and things like that about it lots on social media. And it's basically a real or perceived feeling of rejection. And it might not be rejection as in someone said, they don't want to be with you anymore. As a partner or friend. It's actually hugely when you just think about linking it to work and things send an email and the person doesn't reply quickly enough or with the response that you're waiting for. You just go oh my god, they must think I'm so stupid. I'm so silly. Oh my God, that's absolutely terrible. They're going to sack me now. This is going to call me into the office and all these like, these feelings of rejection come and it just hugely overwhelming or it might be that if you've got you know, a friend group and then you message a friend and and they don't reply, and you're like, it takes a couple of days and you're like, Oh my God, that's it. I've obviously annoyed them. I've done something to upset them. They don't want to be my friend anymore. So RSD is a huge part of ADHD. And I think it's about some statistic about 95% of people with ADHD Have RSD and it's just completely this film feelings of sort of almost overwhelm. And you just can't shift them. And I was coaching someone the other day. And she was like, Well, what can I do about it, I was like, you just sometimes just have to ride it through, look at past evidence to know, you didn't get sacked when you sent that email that, you know, it wasn't even a bad email, and the friend did still want to be their friend, your friend, it was just that you, you know, they were having a really busy week, or the kids were ill, or they were busy at work or whatever. So you just have to, like, look back and just think, no, it's okay, I know. And, you know, inside is your RSD that's always the hardest bit, isn't it, you know, that it's RSD. And actually, they do whatever your friend or work is fine or whatever, but that feeling is so intense, isn't it,

30:41
and I think at work, you know, that can cause a lot of misunderstandings, because you might, you know, perceive a comment from somebody or a meeting or, or a task that somebody's giving you in a slightly different way. And I think that then has negative kind of impacts, particularly between kind of, you know, a team member and a line manager, because they've asked them to do something, they picked up a certain tone or the way they've said it or, you know, whatever it might be and suddenly escalates when it doesn't need to because there's nothing there to escalate. So it's a really important one thing people should know about. And maybe then start to see if they have got RSD. When that starts to kick in, what are the triggers? What do I need to look out for? When it's all okay, it's starting right, I need to kind of get back to kind of, you know, almost reality and go actually, it's okay. I'm kind of reading more into this. But it's involuntary. It's not something that somebody's doing on, you know, on purpose. They don't know it's happening.

31:36
But, you know, it's kind of forewarned is forearmed really isn't actually, I mean, I think, I think that's the thing, if you know that that's the thing, you're saying that it's a big part of people with ADHD, living with ADHD, sorry, have got rejection sensitivity, but just knowing that that's a thing in your life. And that's part of what you're living with. And then you can sort of take a step back, and maybe give yourself a little bit of time and go, just let me analyze this. It's almost like stepping away from an email that you that you're gonna write because you feel it and just going, let me just sit on that for an hour or two, and then come back to it or whatever. So I just think it allows you the opportunity to see that you're not just weird, which is kind of what you do not to me like, and that can't deal with things in the same way.

32:17
Yeah, yeah. Like I was just thinking sitting here thinking about an analogy for the declutter, hub is like, you know, I remember my mom years ago, coming round, and she's come to stay, and the kids are quite little. And remember, she went, Oh, so you don't like dusting then? Just like, Oh, my God, it really got my backups. And whenever she comes, she's very particular. Anyway, whenever she comes, I'm always like, Oh, my God, I have to be like, you know, my sort of Mary Poppins with a white glove checking for dust, because I'm so sensitive to this now. And then you then think, Well, does everyone else think our house is this? And I'm thinking, looking back, the children were really young, all she could have done is gone? Do you know, what do you want me to help? Just it looks like, you know, whatever. Also

32:53
anything at all? That's possible. Yeah. It wasn't even

32:57
that bad. Was it like goodness me, but that's the thing. So and I think when you have people who've got inverted commas, cluttered homes, there's that shame and that guilt that comes with it, and someone comes around and goes, oh, gosh, there's no way for me to sit here, or whatever it is. And you've got these immense, overriding feelings. But I just think talking about RSD. And knowing it is a thing is huge, because so many people just go oh my god, I just thought that was me.

33:20
I think I think it is a big thing. And it's hard to know where that ends. And so not everybody who has been judged harshly and had mean things said to them, which is a big part of, you know, people then hold on to it even more and respond to it even more like your lap than I need to go a little bit crazy with the dusting when they come and all that. So we kind of go too far the other way. But I think, you know, the reason why I wanted to spend so much time talking about some of these things, rather than talking about strategies, which we're going to talk about in another podcast, don't worry is so that people can sort of start to fill in the dots in between and go, Okay, I get that, but I've part of it. And I get that I'm not a great timekeeper. And I get that I struggle with putting my washing in. And maybe there's something in this Now, not everybody needs or requires a diagnosis of ADHD or autism and or any other neurodiverse condition. No, you might not need that. But you might if you're feeling down on yourself, and you're feeling that it's having a negative impact on your world, perhaps it's something that you can seek out. It's not an easy thing to get. Is that an easy process to go through things and go into it with your eyes open. But I think it's something that's available for you. And I think the nice thing about this community is that as I said before these light bulbs are going on and people are thinking maybe it's not just me, and maybe there's something else at play while it is just you but maybe it is something else at play. That is a reason for why I feel and act in this way. And so I think that's the important thing. And that's the reason why I've delved a little bit deeper into some of the things but I'm very conscious that I want to come back and I want to go into practicalities. I've loved it. Today's conversation I'm completely fascinatingly, it's not it's not normally that I'm quiet here, but I'm listening, just been taking a step back and listen to everything that you've been saying. So hope that it's been useful, everybody, do let us know whether any of the things that Kelly and Hester have talked about today resonate with you, and whether you've gone through a diagnosis or on the or in the middle of seeking out a diagnosis or had a diagnosis and how that has impacted your world. So thank you so much for listening, and we'll see you next week.

35:29
Thanks so much for listening to the declutter hop podcast. Don't forget to subscribe to us in your podcast player, so you don't miss an episode. We'll see you next week.
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Episode 286 – Is there a connection between ADHD, Autism and clutter with Kelly and Hester Grainger

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Episode 408 – Why Weight and Clutter Are More Similar Than You Think

Episode 406 – The Decluttering Turning Point with member Ben

Episode 405 – What your clutter is doing to your mental health

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