A photograph of Penny Moyses surrounded by other people
Episode 258 – The transition from young adult to home-maker with guest Penny Moyses

How do you deal with the transition from a young adult leaving home for the very first time to a full blown home owner with all the responsibilities that entails. That’s what we’re talking about in today’s podcast with our guest, Penny Moyses.
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Transcript of this podcast episode
00:00
How do you deal with the transition from going from a young adult leaving home for the very first time, all the way through to being a full time full blown homeowner with all the responsibilities that that entails? That's what we're going to be talking through in today's podcast with the lovely Penny Moises.

00:24
You're listening to the declutter hub podcast, bringing you tried and tested no nonsense tips and advice from the leading experts in decluttering and organizing your home. Now here's your host, Lesley Spellman.

00:47
Hello, and welcome, listeners. I'm Lesley, we're delighted you're here to join us as part of your decluttering journey. So whether you're brand new today or have been listening in for ages, we want to say thank you so much for being here. It means so much to Ingrid and now that you turn up every week to listen to and support us. While we talk all things decluttering and organizing. We'd love to help more people with their quest for a clutter free home and our podcast is a fantastic way for people to be inspired to take action, we have a favor to ask. If you like what you hear, be sure to hit the follow subscribe or like button on your podcast player. share us with your friends or share your thoughts on the podcast by leaving a review. So I'm so delighted today to welcome the lovely Penny Moises who is from a clean and tidy Home Show. Now the nice thing about penny and Ingrid and I is that we see each other from time to time events dotted around that are all to do with clean and tidy and organizing. And so we saw you at the clean and tidy Home Show obviously last October. We saw you again at the Abdo conference back in May we got talking over glass of wine, and it was the night before the conference right? You started to talk to me about your own decluttering journey. And I was like yes, I think you need to come on to the podcast to talk about that. So who you are. Yeah, thank you so much for having me back.

02:05
So tell us a little about who you are and your background. And then we can delve into your decluttering journey. Brilliant.

02:12
Thank you again for having me. So my name is Penny. I'm one of four children, originally from Hartford cheer. And I studied events management at university. And after that I've been fortunate enough to have an amazing career and events working in the UK overseas on lots of different types of events. I had a stint of living in London. And I've since then moved back to Hartford cheer once I got engaged. And I'm now married, with two little boys who dogs. And yes, home has really evolved throughout those different times for me for various different reasons, which I'm getting more and more excited to kind of discuss and connect with other people that can can kind of relate and connect on those levels, too. So you did quite a lot of moving around that. And one of the things that you spoke about when we met was the fact you thought that home was never really home, which was quite interesting, I think I think and that's what I really kind of thought, yeah, that's what we're going to talk about. So home was just a place where you existed Do you never really felt like home, so you want to elaborate a little bit more on that. So and it's something that I've really only reflected on quite recently. And I think that's why it was really lovely to have that conversation with you and share it. I think moving into university halls in my first year away from my family home was an interesting one. And you know, living with people that I'd only just met, and trying to navigate how we were very different in our home approach if you like but I think we were more bothered about creating a party pad than we were actually at home where we could feel kind of safe, secure, and and clean and tidy, ultimately.

03:53
And then moving to London in a professional House share. I initially was fortunate enough to live with a lady in my family who is known as a fairy godmother. But it was very much her home. And so I felt like I really had to adjust to how she wanted, you know not so that she made me feel welcome. And there are other working professionals that were part of that house share too. But I really felt that that level of respect ultimately it was her home first. And that was the point I remember first being put on the cleaning rotor and upon reflection thinking my goodness, I had no idea what I was doing and would be embarrassed every time it was my turn particularly to clean the bathroom because I thought does it actually look any cleaner or anything like that it was when I started. I really didn't know what I was doing. And then I've moved in with various other people. And again, there was this adjustment to then working overseas a lot. And I would spend sometimes up to three weeks in China at a time or on site at events in the UK. And then often with quite a quick turnaround to get back home, get things washed and Organised ready to get back off again. Then when living with my husband, there was another job

05:00
wasn't there because we were trying to kind of make a home together. And I think that's where I then again, that expectation came back of. Okay, so I'm the woman in this relationship. So surely I should be capable of x, y, and Zed. And this is what my boyfriend is expecting of me. And then I think that continued as I then got married and then thought, right, so he's now at the point where I really have to have dinner ready for when he returns home, and what does that look like, and then becoming a mum. But it was like, why has this domestic goddess thing not just kind of happened to me? And why am I flailing so much and not understanding what what we're doing? Only six months later, some of my oldest was six months, we went into lockdown. And that was my, my relationship with my home changed again. And I had to be in it. And I think that was really where things started to kind of unravel, if you like. And that was the point of which I really had to think about, right, what is this space that we are living in, seeping in, operating in at that point, working and socializing in and all of those things? And yeah, we'll come on to talk a little bit more about the clean and tidy Home show that then came shortly after. But really, I felt like I was failing in all facets of my life, because I simply couldn't gain control of my holy space. And it's really interesting, actually, because I think I was taught when I was talking to that night, we'd had an email from a lady and I wish that I could remember who it was. And I'm so sorry, if you're listening, but you know who you are, who said, You know what, Lesley and Ingrid, you never talk about how shares. And that's something that we've not really spoken about, we have done a couple of podcasts on decluttering, organizing small spaces and smaller homes. But we've not really done anything on how shares. So I want to delve a little bit into that. So it's an interesting concept, isn't it? Because as you say, you're more interested in how can I get out of the house? Or how can I create a party environment to invite 50 people into my house, rather than how can I make this house function. So tell us a little bit about what you did and how you lived, if you don't mind at that stage, whether you had put any organizational systems in place. So when I first went to university, I have gone from quite a big bedroom with a double bed in it to then suddenly a very small single bed with very limited storage. And ultimately, that was my only real domain to be me, you know, and there wasn't really any other storage and the rest of the flat that we were living in at that time. So I had to kind of downsize in terms of the things that I had a very small wardrobe for clothes. But I think what was kind of the most challenging thing about that is that there was this conflict around who I was and who I wanted to be and who I was as a student and making these new friends. And so I think that you could almost see that displacement, if that's the right way. But if the right terminology in terms of who I was, and my space. So I think I probably tried a few different things, even over that first year, to try and work out again, what I felt comfortable with, you know, even when it came to kind of color schemes, or otherwise, and there'd be some of my friends and indeed, flatmates that would have, you know, most gorgeous thing that they've kind of brought to their lovely space to really make it theirs. And I think at that point, I just didn't necessary, I always was kind of amazed by how homey they can make something. But I'm not really sure that those things really resonated with me. And again, to me, it was more about creating that space that other people felt comfortable. And I suppose it's coming from a big family, it was always the feeling and the dancing around the kitchen. That was the only bit not necessarily the candles and those other things that certainly can help with those things. But so I think for me, I actually found that I almost didn't even care what my room looked like, as long as there was plenty of people around. But those times sometimes when I was then studying or, you know things where they were there weren't as many people around that then the space just felt really alien. And in all honesty, I don't think I did enough to really lean into what that space could have been like to serve me better. I certainly had the kind of files and you know, in terms of my organization around my kind of education at that point was relatively Organised. But I'm not sure I really had enough of a connection with my belongings to really, as I say, understand what was serving me better. But I think one interesting thing about going into a house share in London with some of my new friends and absolutely adored my time there. But they had a very different they're very, very different week to me. They worked in events too, but they were not on site as much and their work wasn't as kind of frantic. I mean, I remember we used to be in the office until midnight, even on a Friday night we'd get Prosecco delivered to the office, because we've been continuing to working and you know, it was really, really a high intense scenario. But often I would miss out on their times where they would open a bottle of wine and cook together and have a really cozy night in and do a face mask and and that kind of thing. And even at that stage in my early 20s It was almost something that I either didn't have the time that capacity, that understanding of and I think that I felt a little bit ostracized in that in that scenario, but instead

10:00
have, again addressing that and understanding that and perhaps exploring that as an opportunity to be at home, there was always plenty of work to do. And so I think that, for me was just the easiest thing to focus on and lean into, because I thought I was better at it.

10:13
I think it's so interesting what you say, really, because as you've been talking about a different generation, a lot older, AKA a lot older than you play. And I think that my children are at the age that you're now talking about when you're a little bit older than that now, but so I've just gone through the university thing with them level. And I was involved, I was involved, as you might imagine, in the organization of the room and trying to maximize the space. But I think, in each of the houses that they went, so I kind of went in helps got the homely things got the throws tried to do my best to make it as homely as we could. But they didn't really know when they were 18, what they really wanted, it could look and go, I quite like Navy as a color. But they've not I mean, yes, they do have an input in their bedrooms here. Of course they do and create something that feels right for them. But I think it's something that evolves. And so I always reflected when I came back, when I went back to pick them up at the end of each university year, how much they've done with this space and make it their own.

11:11
And I think you're right, organizationally, come from a place of understanding that because they were kind of with me, and so they you know, and I would put the right sort of systems in place that they would just carry on doing, I guess. And so I think that's quite interesting. But you know, more than anything, do, I think that that's what you should be doing when you're in 20s. Like really worried about that? And I really do not, I mean, I think that your 20s is a time for doing different things rather than keeping house. But I think one of the things that we see is if you fail to see that, and ignore it for so long, and then just carry on down that route. That's when you fall into trouble, which is what you're going to sort of talk about now. So should you have it all nailed, like anything at 20? Like, do you know everything? No, you're just playing around with things and you try a few things. And you go, Oh, that's the thing, oh, that person does that. That's quite cool. And you're learning and taking all these things from other people. And then slowly but surely, you start to evolve in the person that you want to be. So it's not just in keeping house, it's everything really isn't in your early 20s. So don't beat yourself up over that. I should have been so much better.

12:16
I can't even remember what I was like.

12:19
This is the thing when language and I was talking and she was always super Organised. I'm like, I'm not sure that I was I was an only child. So I did spend a lot of time moving my room around because I think I was that's what I used to do. Constantly. I'd be like, Oh, I'll have the better this week, I'll have the better this week as much as I could. So I do definitely remember that. But other than that I don't we don't really have many memories of what it was like. So you talked a little bit about your landlady. And so how did that go with the chores? And what did you feel about chores at that time, because that's an interesting concept that I want you to talk about, was the fact that you felt you were infiltrating on her space. And that you had to do this cleaning roads, my understanding of it from you know, myself and my children is it's just this thing that has to be done. There's no resets and routines, it's just this has got really bad now and so we need to really do something about it. It's more like that. So how did you feel about the chores? And how did that all work. So that was quite an established House share. So this beautiful, beautiful house in London, and she'd always had I say, young professionals, I was the youngest by about 10 years when I was there. And they'd had this amazing system that worked already, where they kind of pulled together to buy certain things. And there was a rotor that ultimately somebody else left them and I went into. So I think that in itself was a bit scary. And some of the things you've mentioned, even about being younger, is that expectation, you know, or measuring yourself against other people. And I think that's something that I've always suffered with and still do now. And as I say, I think it's more from kind of reflection around that expectation of myself. So as I say I was kind of fitting into their process. But it was just that realization. And anything that I've been good at in my life, I've had to kind of learn and train and practice. And I don't think I've given myself enough credit for the fact that I was slotting into something that ultimately I didn't really have the knowledge. But stupidly I kind of didn't try and find the source of information or say actually, this is how I feel about it. I just kind of thought, Well, I'll try my best and get away with it. And I think that's the bit that I'd love to advocate for, especially for young people to ultimately manage expectations for yourself and the people that you live with, but also ask for help. And hopefully, between us and more people in our industry, we'll be able to make that easier because I It certainly was a detriment to me and how I felt about myself at certain times. I think they again, there's a few things in there penny that jumped to mind. He said you were 10 years younger than the next person. There's a huge difference between 10 years at that age is huge in terms of what people do, what people think what people have learned and so on. And of course, I think often we've not been taught you know

15:00
We never taught, you know, you may have been taught by your parents, but many, many people have never, you know, they've either had it done for them. And so they've come from a very clean and tidy home. But they don't really know how it got there. And they're not really bothered. And why really, shouldn't it be if you have all that done for you, just me. And so we're big advocates of getting children involves really early, really early stages of things and saying, This is why we're doing it. But the bottom line as a parent, is it's more hard work in timescale wise to spend the time explaining things, rather than to do it yourself. And I'm sure we'll talk a little bit about that about that after the break. But I think again, so it's this it's the certainly does appear for one minute and Penny to be kind of red flags going off. But certainly it's like evolution that people reflect back on when the kind of in the 30s 40s 50s and go, Why have I got to this point, and now is the first time that I'm thinking about this, or why can I not be better? I think as well as that the interesting thing is, you were talking about slotting into prescribed sort of routers and things like that. If you think about you know, things that people are living with now in a kind of ADHD, OCD, autism, all, you know, different different things that people are, whether it's physical, mental health, all of those kind of things, people are more aware and more self aware these days than they ever were. And so, a rotor, like any I don't know what the rotor was, but may not suit somebody who works in a very different way. And their mind works in a very different way as well. What are the things that you said, and you gave me so much fantastic stuff in that first kind of paragraph at the beginning, Penny was that when you eventually moved in with your husband, that you felt as a woman that you should be better? And so obviously, where we are today, you know, looking at diversity and equality is something Ingrid and I definitely feel that women. I think that in terms of chores, and splitting off of chores, things are getting much, much better. And so I think whether that's parenting, whether that's homemaking, whether all of all of the things working all the things becoming much more equal and has to and that's a great thing. But I think as women, we what we've always said, and this is a generalization I'm putting out this is a generalization, but it's what we have learned is that even though the chores can get split as women, we can't shake off that feeling of the burden of responsibility. So it's not necessarily that we do more, but we feel it more. Does that make sense? And so that's where we are on the kind of women versus men debate. In terms of keeping house, let's call it that. Yeah, mortality rate, although was quite interesting at the moment. And my husband, we have a lot of version, and we kind of had it done to shell by the builders, and my husband's finishing the rest of it. And that's probably the first time that I've really, obviously seen them. We've we've discussed the fact that that weighs on him as a burden. And I almost relate in that sense of almost how I feel about some of the other things in the home that again, in terms of expectations, I want to be done a certain way. And actually, he might not even be bothered to have the things done that certain way. But that's been one really kind of visible and obvious way that I've seen him have that burden on him that perhaps he wouldn't have had around the home previously, which has been quite a fascinating thing to discuss. Yeah, definitely. It's just, it's just so interesting that we still, and it will change over time moment where we can't really shake that off. And so we're the ones that are kind of often not always thinking about what's coming in five days, whether that's like what the kids have got to do. And men will step up, you know, does what absolutely like, Okay, what needs to be done today, whatever, but we're the ones that are thinking a week ahead, often not always often. And I think that's what's that's what's so interesting about as why kind of moves on and things evolve. So interesting, so interested in Penny, but we're gonna get we're gonna do what we need to talk about how you got better, right? So you're in the doldrums about how terrible you've been. And then all of a sudden, you're like, Okay, I need to stop myself out in the middle of lockdown. It's going to come back and talk about how you kind of fixed things and what you've done since. So we're gonna go to a break now. And we'll be back in a moment. So welcome back, everybody after the break. So we were talking before the break of Penny, about the kind of how she felt from that kind of 18 to I'm not quite sure what age we don't need to put an age on it. I'm gonna say late 20s. Yeah, maybe you can get into Yeah, 3018 30 There were about 18 to 30. So, and obviously, things have changed because you are now the host and creator of the clean and tidy Home Show. So clean and tidy cleaning and tidying and decluttering. And organizing is your thing. So you learn to Lot and you've changed a lot. So want to delve into how you fixed the potential. So I want to delve into the things that you consider to be problems. So tell us a little bit more about what happened. You had this kind of lightbulb moment in lockdown and he went, Okay, things need to change here. So I touched on before that I work in events management, and there really is an event for everything but there wasn't an event an event

20:00
For people who followed Mrs. Hinge, so I don't know if all of your listeners would be for Mrs. Hinge. But this was a lady that I started following that would share very simple kind of cleaning tips and tricks. And she kind of piqued my interest. But that's all it was that I was thinking somebody should totally run an event for people that are interested. And she's got an amazing fan base Aquila hinges. So that was a fleeting thought that I had had a few years ago, but it was going into lockdown. And I mentioned for my eldest was six months. So I'd actually gone back to work full time with him at four months and had actually a quite a good routine in the sense that I was going into London five days a week, he was in full time nursery. And so managed to kind of just really Organise everything within an inch of its life, because it had to be that way to be able to fulfill that. And then six months went into lockdown. So I'm weaning him at the time as well, which is really lovely. So food all over the floor, and the walls and all that kind of stuff. And that routine, and ultimately, that childcare suddenly disappeared. But I was busier than ever with work, because we were moving physical events and canceling things, and then trying to do virtual events and all this kind of stuff. So it's really intense time. And so overnight, our routine had to really, really change. And I was working on the dining room table opposite my husband, we ordered the bounce of my son, because we were like, how can we keep him in one place while we're on Zoom calls? Or what can that look like? You know, how do we structure our life. But I think the bit for me that was incredibly overwhelming is that I'd never spent so much time at home, I've never eaten so many meals at home. So even just things like the washing up and and how we operated within that that kind of kitchen environment was a struggle, even things like washing that we tend to have to kind of either do a washer day or catch up on a weekend, I'd be seeing it. Whereas I was working in the office before I was working from home and seeing all these things that I was losing control of. And that's the point where I was like, Oh, my goodness, I need to discover more. And so it was the birth of my second child, which was early January 21. But this idea of just kept coming back to me around something in this, I need this help. And it's not just about cleaning, it goes deeper than that. And so instead of watching seven series of Great British Bake Off in a week that I managed to in my first job trying to stay awake at night, but I started writing a business plan. And that was where I would look on Instagram and Google. And that's where I came across the Association of Professional departures and Organisers. And I was like, oh my goodness, this is incredible. And looking at all the different specialisms and you know, the advocacy of getting help within the home, which is something that even to this day, I really struggle with accepting help. And I know a lot of friends and people I speak to feel feel the same. But ultimately, at that point in lockdown, we couldn't have that help. So it was like, How can we help ourselves? And how can we do that better. And I think it was this point of really understanding even how products work or how systems can work and how they can benefit you. So I often use the example of going for a run, which doesn't happen very often. But if I have a 20 minute window to go for a quick run, it takes me 15 minutes to find my trainers, I'm a sports bra, then I've lost that opportunity to go for a run. And so I think it was all of that realization that actually my home is going to make or break me and my lifestyle and what's what i've what I want to achieve for my family. And so that's as I say where the the clean and tidy Home show then really kind of came to life. So interesting that you say that, that you had this realization. And I think it's we talk a lot about clutter blindness, there's so many things that are kind of wrapped up in that really. And I think it's this, the lockdown allowed you to kind of almost have a window on something that you've been choosing to ignore probably for the most part, and couldn't do anything about because you were so busy. And then you know, this complete shift is so interesting that you say about having to use a kitchen having to eat at home or, you know, there were so many things that happened over that time. It's been a big learning point. For a lot of people, it's a bit of a make or break time, I think for a lot of people for many, many things, but also homemaker and you know, it's the time that when people were sitting in their homes going, we really need to do something about this. And that's when DIY went crazy. And everyone was decorating their homes if they could do and all of those things, because people were suddenly seeing it, rather than just going out No, not that they were going out and ignoring it but going going out because they needed to go out and they weren't in the homes, you know, so the the percentage of time that we were in our homes went to 100%. Right or 95% compared to maybe 25% before and so it's obviously going to have an impact. So So you started to gather all this information so presumably you started to learn as well so because you can't just say all that someone on Instagram and not look at what they say anyway.

24:50
All of these things started to kind of go in mentally and you started to make these shifts. Yeah, absolutely. I think it was that knowledge base. That was the real color.

25:00
an eye opener. So even things around, you know, having children, and then suddenly needing all these extra things face for whether it's toys, clothes, you're gonna be more concerned about what things you are using, how you're caring for them, you know how I'm organizing, perhaps cleaning, toys, sterilization, all that kind of stuff. But I think it was really understanding my relationships with things. So even, you know, the baby grow that my son came home from hospital with, you know, what is my relationship with that? And then what do I do with it? And does it just get shoved in a drawer for how many years until I work out a better purpose of it, you know, and often use the example my wedding dress is still in my wardrobe, it hasn't been washed, and it's just there. And it's almost like this thing, but I just, I'm not sure how to deal with it at a conference, where we saw each other in May spoke about kind of hidden grief, you know, and almost, I've been surrounding myself with these things that I'm not ready to get rid of. And sometimes I'm just absolutely not sure why. And so I think just really understanding better the things that can help you in your home. And why was for me, just this absolutely transformational thing. And I must add, I don't have all the answers, I'm determined to keep finding them. And I'm really on a journey. But I think that's the thing, you know, looking back over my life, and we're homeless meant, you know, with two young children, my home space is changing every couple of months internally, and my youngest is now potty training. So in terms of how many parties where we need them, how much laundry I'm doing, even how our routine are things, our habits, things that I need to do when he first wakes up, all of that's changed, and there'll be something else My eldest start school in September. And so I think, now I feel like my life is shifting and shifting, again, with all of these different needs different belongings, different size of clothes. And so I think it's really just understanding the opportunities for again, you to help yourself or find somebody else to help you to enable those things to happen better. And things to function, the throughput of things to be fair Penny, at that age, you know, from kind of birth to probably about 10, or 11 is huge. Just mean because it's just constantly moving, you know, no, soon have you bought something and put it on them, especially as baby, you know, within two or three weeks, it might be too small. So it's a big three part. So here's a it does get better in terms of the amount of things it does start to decrease in terms of children's things, the things started to get smaller. So those kind of big, like houses and tool benches and big doll's houses and all those kinds of things started to go a little bit smaller. So that you know, in terms of management of kids toys and things, it just starts to get a little bit easier.

27:38
But then something else comes in something else always comes in. But you're right. It's all about that relationship to stuff. And just recognizing that, you know, once you recognize that it's not just about the thing. It's about what do I feel about that thing? What am I going to feel about that thing in a few years. And so it's interesting that you talk about your wedding dress, actually, because he wouldn't have done a podcast all about wedding dresses, a whole podcast on what to do with a wedding dress. And spoiler alert, Ingrid and I both have our wedding dresses still. So and it's interesting that you're talking about it, the talk that Penny was talking about was with a lady who we also love called Maya ruse, who talks about hidden grief. So it was all about things in your life that you might not realize that you're grieving about. And so I wouldn't necessarily, if I'm being honest, put a wedding dress into that category at all. Because I think it's something to be, I think it's just a nice thing to have. So for example, my wedding dress exactly the same of yours, shoved it into a suit carrier, it's kind of at the back of a cupboard upstairs. And my daughter, I keep saying 201 These day, every time I go in there all the wedding dresses that I needed to try out because there's not a hope in hell of me getting out. And so I put it on Leah. And the two things that I realized were a that I was actually really tiny when I got married, because she's a little tiny thing. And I was like it almost physically.

28:58
I was definitely the main thing I'm grieving

29:01
that there is that grief. So then I was like, Oh, give it to me like they put it on. I mean, I was like, why am I done this? Like why have I even thought that's the thing when there's it wouldn't even if Bailey wouldn't even go up like an inch at the bottom. So I was like, Well, nevermind. I think why should you Why should you get rid of your wedding dress, if it's something that potentially is possibly going to be used is going to be fun. You know, you see people these days, you know what the I mean? I'm 30 years married and a couple of months. And, you know, I'm not going to be putting the wedding dress on but I have seen people who do that, you know, there's things that you can do about their fun, right? And it's such a nice such a big thing, right? So it's very hard to get rid of that. So but yeah, baby clothes is something that you really need to rationalize because we can't keep everything. So wedding dress is a one off thing. baby clothes and baby clothes. And of course like the baby grow that your child came from hospital is a one off thing with a very special memory. But there are many, many things that our children are the most special things in our lives to us for the most part and so of course

30:00
Everything that we see is going to evoke a memory of a lovely time that we had with them. And so it's very hard to let those things go. But that's where we have to look at quality over quantity. So as well, with cost of living going up, I think I've certainly realized a sense of the value of things that is that I that I'm having to really challenge. And another thing I think sustainability, especially when I became a mum became something that was really overwhelming for me. And I think it's marrying those, those two things, and then actually doing something about it, if that's something that I want to do that has just become more and more challenging. So I think, you know, as we've alluded to that relationship with your things, what it really means, but in terms of value memory space in your home, you know, I have quite a modest home. And so do I have enough space to keep my wedding dress? Well, yes, but then I can't then put some other clothes in the wardrobe, if that's where it's going to be, you know, it's that kind of thing. And you know, what, I think we recently converted our Understairs storage into a toilet. So all of that when, and I said before about converting our loft. So again, these decisions that we might not have needed to make before we now have to other they otherwise they are living amongst amongst us in a different way that those things weren't before. So I think that's been another thing that in the last couple of years, has changed as well, which I think has really made a difference to our conversations, and ultimately what we decided to do with them, I think the one thing that's really clear to me, the difference between the before the break stuff where you felt a little bit that you weren't stepping up and doing what you wanted to do. And the the transformation that has happened after the break, not just in that kind of 90 seconds, obviously a lot more in between. But I think it's clear that you're immersing yourself in learning about yourself and about stuff and about things and about what they mean to you what the value is spatially, emotionally, all those things. And that is absolutely what it's all about. And so I couldn't be sat here talking to a professional Organiser, but I'm definitely talking to somebody who's gone on a major transformation. And I love that and that's not in that many years. Penny. So I think there's, there's hope for us all, I think that's probably the message out there is, you know, it's just so important to give yourself time to think about it. Because the the changes that you can make, and presumably the the changes that you've made at home Penny and are continuing to make will last you a lifetime. And you've got that you've got that nailed early, you know, probably at the right time to be family. Yes, we could always start earlier. But you weren't in your 50s 60s before you started to think about that. But even if you are in your 50s and 60s, you still got a long time ahead of you where you can make your home work for you. So let's talk about the clean and tidy home share penny that is coming up in just a few weeks. Very excited. I'm going to say now before we start meaning we're not going to be there, which is like super sad. Because Ingrid's got a 50th birthday party right now. So we're not able to make it this year. But we will be back in 2024. But let's talk about it Petey, what's what's happening this year with a clean and tidy Hampshire. So this year, we're on the 14th and 15th of October, which is a Saturday and Sunday. And we have got an amazing speaker lineup lots of people from professional organizing, we've got even conversations about mental health relationships, hormonal cycles, and to a certain extent you name it, anything that can really impact how you feel about your home. And you just mentioned Lesley about really getting to know yourself. I feel like that's probably been the biggest transformational thing, what do I want? What brings me joy in my home? And what do I want my schedule to be rather than just trying to follow the rules and regulations that somebody else's has set, which I think has been really interesting. So we've even got joy on the chests that are really delving into your joy and hearing lots of different examples of people's journeys within their their homes. So really great speaker lineup, we've got an Ask an Expert and feature which is being run by the British Institute of cleaning science, so anything from kind of to bleach or not to bleach and have a microfiber cloths work and how should you care for them, but also with the Association of Professional decluttering and Organisers. So whether it's how to get started decluttering your kitchen or looking at Hidden grief or various other things that we'll be running on on that feature. There's lots of different brands, anything from cleaning, labeling, organizing storage providers, laundry providers. I think one thing that is really important for me is that we're offering so many solutions for people to help themselves but also advocating for all the service providers that can help people and making sure that this is a space where we can come together and learn and understand and I think get the right help at the right time. Which is something that again for me I've been really reflecting on and certainly I've been better look great the better accepting so at Excel London I

35:00
I'm super easy to get to now on the amazing Elizabeth Elizabeth line, which is the My favorite way of getting across London now, but everybody is welcome. We're gonna be doing lots online, certainly through our Instagram channel. But we'll have lots of YouTube videos and everything else afterwards. So even if you can't get to London, there's gonna be lots of takeaways, but super excited. And I can't believe it's coming around so quickly.

35:24
Lots of work to do. So we will put all the details of course in the show notes for how to get clean and tidy Home show how you can buy tickets, what and there's so much cool stuff. Penny goes live all the time on her Instagram stories and things like that, and reels and what have you. So do take a look at because he can't get someone because we know loads of you can't get to London, there's loads of great content on our channels as well. So best of luck, Penny we will be rooting for you. Even if we won't be that it's a wonderful, wonderful show. We absolutely love to be in there. We love the connections that we've made loads of people that have been on our podcast in the last year, were at the clean and tidy Home Show. It's just a lovely place with a nice feel. So it's not just like any other trade show. It definitely has a real family feel of everybody coming into cleaning, tidying, organizing and all that fun stuff together. So thank you so much penny for coming on the podcast and sharing your story. I think it's been a really fascinating conversation. And I'm delighted that we've never been able to delve into that before. So thank you so much for being so open and honest and the very best of luck on the 14th and 15th of October. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me.

36:39
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