A photograph of a smiling woman, guest Shelina discusses decluttering in Dubai
Episode 102 – Guest Shelina talks about decluttering in Dubai

Lesley and Ingrid are talking to fellow Professional Organiser Shelina about her experiences decluttering in Dubai, and how it differs from working in other countries.
We discuss how Shelina ended up working as a Professional organiser in Dubai as a Brit, as well as what different things she needs to think about when working in homes with different cultures and religions. We ask her whether the principles are the same when working in beautifully decadent homes in the UAE.
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Transcript of this podcast episode
Intro  0:07  
Welcome to today's episode of The declutter of podcast, your channel for super easy, no nonsense advice on how to declutter and organise your home. Please welcome your hosts professional organisers, Ingrid Jansen and Lesley Spellman.

Lesley  0:31  
Hello, and welcome listeners to Episode 102 of the declutter Podcast. I'm Lesley. Now, as you're all aware, we have listeners all over the world in particular, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, North America, as well as our lovely Brits. But today, I'm very excited because we're talking to a really good friend of ours mine I mean, Brett's essay is a professional organiser in Dubai, and covers the whole of the Middle East. That's quite an undertaking. I think we'll talk about that in a minute. I'm a huge Dubai fan. I've been there a couple of times and absolutely loved it and I keep promising to go back and visit Shalina. So that is definitely going to happen at some point. But I invited chilena as a guest on today's show, because I really want to understand how working in Dubai differs from working in other countries. So hello, Shelina.

Shelina  1:17  
Hi, Lesley, how are you? 

Lesley  1:20  
So we've known each other for quite some time. And it's always nice to get together, which is normally at the conference in the UK, socially, and it comes down from Dubai, Ingrid and I are always there. We always gravitate towards Selena to be fair, and we always have a real laugh, don't we? Yes, we do. We are a little gang at the UK after conference. So we always have fun. So it's like, yeah, we need to lean on the podcast. Angelina, of course, has a podcast of her own as well. So Shelina has been podcasting way longer than we have. How many podcasts have you done?

Shelina  1:50  
We've got 115 At the moment, I think so. Yeah.

Lesley  1:56  
Since surely there's gonna be one a week. Yeah. Should do one a week. So she's, she's slightly ahead of us or slightly ahead. So we're so so declutter me podcast as well. So if you want any more decluttering hints and tips from another podcast, you'll love it so much, then do tune into Shelina as well. So you Yes, way, a Brit, because we hear that I am southern tones, you know, we've got stuff in here. Surely, you know, how did you end up in Dubai?

Shelina  2:26  
I ended up here. So I'm a proper southern very, as you as you know, in Kent, and I was working in London. So I just applied for a job. I used to be a lawyer. So I applied for a job here and got it immediately. And so I moved to work for Emirates as a legal counsel there. And then so I did that for years, I think I was a lawyer for 13 years. And then 2013, I had enough of it. I was miserable. And I had dreamt about doing this for years and years and years. So even when I was in London, I dreamt about it. So I just Googled. And I looked at Abdo, our association for organisers and the one in America. And then I saw no one was doing it here. So I thought I'd be the first one. So yeah, I was the first in the whole region to start decluttering and organising for my sins,

Lesley  3:17  
and you take Middle East by storms. That's quite an undertaking. So you must do quite a lot of travelling then

Shelina  3:23  
I do quite a bit. But now there's quite a few organisers around in all the different countries so but I have especially clients here who have moved to different countries like Bahrain and Oman. So I go to them, and help them out. So but I'm hoping to expand a bit more and get into Saudi, because that's a big country for look later. Yes,

Lesley  3:45  
exactly. So the thing is really about the Middle East, and in particular Dubai, then it's a real melting pot of cultures, isn't it? So yeah, I wanted to talk a little bit about that, because I'm really interested in how is it different. So in my opinion, clutter has no boundaries, and wherever you're from, and whatever culture race religion, but obviously, the things that you do when you're working in homes can be different culturally, and you have the certain things that you need to take into consideration. And they'll be different types of clutter. So that's really what I'm interested in chilena.

Shelina  4:16  
There's different hat types of houses here. So we have big villas, and I deal with a lot of we call them local, so MIT's or if they're Armani's or whatever. So they have massive villas and they'll have two kitchens. So it won't be just the normal kitchen. We have one kitchen that's the show kitchen, then they'll have a dirty kitchen. So that's where all the cooking is. So all the smelly cooking or the you know, the onions, the garlic, the spices, everything will be stored in that kitchen. And then the normal kitchen as we would have the fancy kitchen is for cereal and breakfast and you know, a tea and coffee. So that's a big thing. So when I have to organise and declutter kitchens, I always ask do you live in a villa? Do you have two kitchens? Because then I have to plan to organise both of them because there'll be things in both places that they don't need. And then in villas, a lot of people have closets. So either they've changed one bedroom into a closet, or they already have a walk in closet. So I because my thing is doing closets I love. I love helping people with their wardrobes and closets. So there's a lot of that so reorganising and decluttering closets, and then telling them what to do to get bigger space or smaller spaces. So that's a big cultural thing. And then, of course, you know, there's all these different cultures here, there's, you know, Westerners, Indians, Arabs, so they've all got their different cultures. So there's things here like, we have a thing called decor and UHD. And oh, there's a perfume but cooler is the thing that you it's like frankincense, and you put it on coals, and then it's, you know, the smell dwarfs everywhere. It's like a smoky smell everywhere in the house, you might see it in TV and movies. And that's a big thing, though. You have to like organise the Core Collection, so all their frankincense and all of that into boxes, and you know, all the paraphernalia, so there's weird things like that, that you wouldn't see in a normal house in the UK. There's little bits and pieces, lots of jewellery, and perfumes, people have perfumes here. So I have to organise a lot of perfumes.

Lesley  6:16  
I think that's really interesting as an organiser, because you have to learn. So ultimately, one as an organiser has to learn about other cultures. And what I've always said is you've just asked, so the PERT, the homeowner is going to tell you what you need to do with those things. But obviously, you're well versed, because you've done it for many, many years. And so you know what you're getting into, if I was then to go into a home and asked to organise that UHD collection? I think I'd be like, Okay, what's that, then? That's really interesting, actually, isn't that give us an idea, then? So how big are these collections? How would they store them? Or the cut of the on disk? Open display? What how does that work?

Shelina  6:54  
Um, so with the closet, it's different. So different people have different things. And a lot of them they have gone and got them designed without thinking about how much stuff they have. So a lot of people are the clients that I have, are the more you know, middle class or wealthier clients. So they have a huge amount of designer clothes, and bags and shoes. And they've built got closets built, which don't accommodate for everything they have. So you have to do the decluttering afterwards. So I'll go in, do that. So that and then make space everywhere so they can find everything quickly. So I mean, how do you describe it, it'll be what would be a normal like the your room right now, like your office, that would be a closet area. So there'll be cupboards everywhere. Some people a lot of people like them open just because they've seen it on shows like, you know, Keeping Up With The Kardashians, you know, all these American shows with these closets like Real Housewives, and they're all open. So they all get open wardrobes and closets. And the problem is there's dust and air conditioning and there'll be mould issues from the aircon. So it's best to have closed doors rather than open. But they don't realise that when they buy it until I come in and go you've got mould on your expensive handbags and shoes. And you know, there's dust everywhere and maybe we should get doors fitted in. So there's things like that that people don't think about. But you know, when you've seen so many closets, you know what's good and what's not good? There's things and I get people buy IKEA closets and I know there's certain things in IKEA and their closets are terrible for storing. Like there's those trouser hours I don't you most probably have seen them as well. Yeah, that people have those rails and to put the trousers on and they always fall off is the worst thing ever. And you can only fit two pairs of trousers on them. I have to tell people to change it to a handrail because it's just wasted time.

Lesley  8:45  
You know, and you saw Rachel in because a lot of these organisational ideas which look amazing. Of course it looks good, doesn't it's when you see what a great idea that is, because it's all uniform and neat. And in our care of course, they've got one or two pairs of trousers on a big rack to demonstrate it. And then the reality is it just doesn't work. And you're better off going with standard hangers aren't you and standard hanging rails. So most of the time and I'm sure it's for you, you probably wish that you'd got involved in the wardrobe design before it was actually put in. And so we do a little bit of that where we're like, no, no, no, you don't need that. You don't need tie rack. You don't need hangers, you just need shelves, and rails and drawers. Yeah, and keep it simple. And that's it. So for most people, whether it's an Ikea wardrobe, or whether it's a bespoke closet, and it's gonna be something about keeping it simple and you really need to identify what you've got and how it's gonna fit in and I think that's something we get bowled over don't we by the beauty of things sometimes.

Shelina  9:41  
Err and this is a problem like in here. I don't know if it's still a problem at home but here people will look on Pinterest or on Instagram or you know all these beautiful pictures of wardrobes and closets and they want it to look just like that. And as you said they have only a few items in these closets. They don't have the normal amount of stuff that people have, even when you declutter their wardrobes, there's still a lot of T shirts and trousers and dresses and shoes that they have. So, you know, they have to think logically of what they have. And people get sometimes annoyed with me because it doesn't look amazingly Pinterest, you know, pretty with three things on the rail, and I'm like, you don't own three things, you own 50 things. We have to you didn't want to declutter 50 things. So we have to fit that all in. So there is a lot of that, but they're getting better. They are the it's, it's taken seven years to get to this point of them being educated about decluttering and organising. Because when I started, people didn't know what I was talking about. So now at least they understand and that they have to do some more work to get to that image that they see on on the internet.

Lesley  10:52  
Okay, then, when you're working then with more wealthy clients, do you work with them all the time? Or do you do any of the stuff without them?

Shelina  11:00  
I always do the first session will I try and do it with them, because they need to be there for the decluttering. But some of them do say, you know, they're too busy, or they just don't want to get hands on. So their maids will be involved. And a lot of their maids know their wardrobes. They've been with them since they were children. They know everything inside and out. So they can tell me what's good or bad. But mostly if I make them work with me, because you can't, you know, as you know, you can't declutter without them being there to say yes or no. And then if I go back again, then I just do the Organising. And I'll know what's new, and what's old, and I can see what should go to get decluttered after a while. So I'll leave a path for them to just confirm that it's fine for it to go. But yeah, first first session always has to be together. I prefer

Lesley  11:45  
Yeah. And I think it's really interesting as well Schilling that you're talking about working with a maid as well, because they still have an input into that water, because they're the ones that are managing it and working with it every day. So in the absence of the homeowner, then you can work with their staff really to get the job done as well, which is interesting.

Shelina  12:03  
And also because then I have to train them as well on how to put things back. So they need to know what items should go where so I label everything. So where the long dresses are, or there are buyers, the thing that we were to cover up, and tops, you know, and they'll know what now are the gym tops and the regular T shirts, because they can't tell the difference a lot of the time, so they need someone to explain everything to them. So I'll do that while we're working together. So it's training as well as decluttering and organising here, which, because you know, the the staff have been brought in, they haven't got maybe the common sense, or the skills of organising that we might we have. So you have to teach that to them and help them build the habit. And so that's what is part of my role as well here. So I think that's a lot. That's a big difference between doing it here and maybe in normal houses in the UK.

Lesley  12:56  
Yeah, and certainly but but as you say, and as it, it's clear, the principles are exactly the same, you know, if you're working with somebody, the person needs to be there to make those decisions. We're looking at reducing the amount so that we can display things effectively so we can get access and visibility on things. So even though people are working with huge wardrobes the chances are they've got so many more clothes as well, haven't they? So you're gonna closet like that you're gonna have a lot of clothes. It's the bottom line. Yeah, you buy a lot of clothes. And so that goes with the territory. And that's fine, but the principles are exactly the same. There's a lot more long what I caught what I would call long hanging them in because of all the elbows and everything. Yeah. So I'm interested about the dirty kitchen and show kitchen as well that sounds really fascinating as well. So do you see a difference in the type of stuff is in those two kitchens then?

Shelina  13:51  
Yeah, so it's completely different and we and sometimes you'll see it will all be a mix everyone you know, the staff and the people live in the house or mix everything up, so I have to separate it so you know everything that you'd consider smelly. So, you know, the spices, the oils, the garlic, the vegetables, that all has to go into the dirty kitchen there usually is a big pantry next to the kitchen as well. And so that has to be organised. So they have bags of rice flour, pasta, they eat a lot of pasta here, but we didn't have a we didn't have a reduction in pasta but you know because everybody was stocked up and so there's all these things and then everything they like drinking coffee here a lot and tea and different flavours. So I find a lot of that in the normal kitchen and then I have to go through and see which ones have gone off because they buy so much and then don't drink it all. So there's that big problem that we have here. They like you know especially they like going to Europe to you know the UK buying the Howard's teas in their little cans, but they don't drink so and they lose flavour like they've you know even spices herbs. spices lose flavour or if they've gone off, you know that they don't realise that so I have to go through so I there's a lot of food wastage here that I have to, you know, go through and get rid of things, which is sad. But that's just how it is

Lesley  15:13  
a lot of people here wishing that they had a dirty kitchen and the show kitchen as well wouldn't that be? That'd be so you've got your perfectly pristine, clean kitchen and you've got everything where everything else goes on?

Shelina  15:27  
Well, you know what people do here, they they visit a lot of people in normal villas. And in gardens, they build a dirty kitchen outside in the garden. So they build like a purpose built kind of like mini Villa kind of or like a shed, but a concrete shed, and they make the dirty, dirty kitchen outside. So you could do that. You could do that in England, if you've got a big enough powder.

Lesley  15:49  
I could do that. Probably not going to but yeah, I could do like the idea of it. Like the idea. And so I guess the other thing that you probably do an awful lot of is house moves as well don't usually because yeah, there's obviously a lot of people moving back and forth from Dubai all the time. So is that something that you do regularly?

Shelina  16:08  
Yeah, and especially during the summer months, it's a lot. And here, a lot of people rent so they move houses sometimes every year. So they move from one apartment to another apartment or to a villa. And right now a lot of people are downsizing. So they're going from villas to apartments. So there's that. So I'm dealing with the decluttering. And we're at that point now that there have been expats here since the 60s and 70s. And they're due to retire. So and if they don't stay on, on a visa, as an investor or whatever, as you know, as expats, they have to leave the country. So they're now at that point where they're downsizing from the massive Villa they had since the 60s, into an apartment. So imagine all those years of clutter that they've accumulated and never got rid of. So there's that that I have to deal with, and then helping them to separate the stuff that's going to be shipped to their home country. And what's going to stay in the apartment for a while. So there's different things that we have to deal with. And then now, you know, with COVID, a lot of people lost jobs here. So they're moving. So there's a lot of decluttering going on right now to then take as little as possible back to their, their country. Because the shipping costs are so expensive right now as well. So yeah, there's there's different scenarios when moving here.

Lesley  17:28  
Yeah, definitely. So just talking about that chilena if you think we've got a fantastic house moving checklist on the declutter Hub website, if you want to do that. So if you are moving house, you might not be moving from Dubai to England and have to go from SuperCloset or two kitchens to one. But if you aren't moving house in a normal way, we have a fantastic house moving checklist that you can download. So you can find it in the show notes, or you can find it on the declutter hub.com shop. So check that out. So, right, so you just talked about COVID, and the things that have happened in Dubai. So you said that struggling a little bit people are struggling, right across the world at the moment. Yeah. It's certainly had an impact in Dubai as well has it?

Shelina  18:13  
It's been huge, I think, especially for the airline industry. And we have, you know, Emirates here is massive. It's it's, you know, think it's what the third globe, biggest airline in the world. So we're not the biggest city but it's a major employer. So a lot of people lost jobs. So they'll be leaving, and they're currently leaving so I've got friends leaving right now. So there's that you know, there's a lot of that so there and, you know, of course there's the border issue so certain countries borders are not open so they can't leave the country so but there's going to be that happening I'm sure it's happening and a lot of you know globally but the with Expat countries like Dubai and Hong Kong and Singapore, it's it's different because people you know, they're not the only residents. They're not citizens, so they have to leave when they lose their jobs. So yeah, it's a weird environment right now, but interesting to see

Lesley  19:05  
now and we were following your your, your journey through throughout Coronavirus, because you post quite a lot if you want to follow follow Selena on social media because she's got SuperCloset in action. Definitely follow her on Instagram. Every time you tune in, you're like No, I want one of those. But you were sort of chronicling your decluttering journey on your personal Facebook page more than anything else. So how do you think that people's attitude towards stuff and clutter has changed since the Coronavirus hit?

Shelina  19:35  
I think a lot of people have realised because they've been stuck at home you know, especially with the kids that they have a lot of clutter and especially people in apartments so you know it's fine to live in a two three bedroom apartment with your kids because you're just sleeping and eating and a lot of people go out you know, to do things and to eat. But then when you're stuck there because here we had locked down for six weeks. I Believe. So we couldn't leave the house, we had to get a permit to leave the house to just go to the supermarket or to the hospital, you can do anything else. So when you're stuck at home with all your people, you know, all the people in the house, you see the clutter more. So people were seeing how much stuff then a kitchen and living room and bedrooms. So it did exasperate a lot of people. So people were contacting me to talk to me online about that. And I think people have, they had extra time, so they could sit and do it themselves. So they've been doing that, you know, with their family and getting the kids involved. So that's been good to see. So yeah, it's good that it's alerted people about, you know, that they have too much stuff. And it was good for a lot of people because they started doing the decluttering. And now, you know, of course, now they're moving. It was a good time to, you know, they had those few weeks to declutter before they moved. So that's been useful.

Lesley  20:53  
I think, I think there has been a real shift and people are, it's forcing a revaluation. For a lot of people, even if people have not been challenged from a health perspective, or economically, I think people are really revisiting their relationship with stuff and finding sort of comfort and having fun with the simpler things in life a little bit, you know, being with your family and that kind of thing. So I think it is really forcing a big change. So you've worked in Dubai, for how many years? Did you says professional organiser?

Shelina  21:21  
I moved here 2005 and started this 2013. So yeah, seven years now.

Lesley  21:27  
Yeah. So what do you think has been the biggest change in professional organising in the last sort of seven or 10 years? Essentially, no.

Shelina  21:34  
awareness has been huge. I mean, when we say, you know, you're a bit longer than me, but you know, not many people knew what we were talking about when we spoke about, you know, I used to just have to say, I'm an organiser, and people would say, are you an event organiser? And I'm like, No, that's different. You know, so to have to describe the whole thing. So now when I see declutter, people like, Oh, yeah. Oh, like Marie Kondo, and I'm like, yeah, like, better. We don't waste, you know, too many boxes. So, yeah, there's been that. So she's helped. I mean, it's, it's a double edged sword with her and you know, my views on her, but it's helped her having coming out at the same time. And so it's made it more of a global thing, and people know, this exists. But obviously, then they think it's all like what she does, which then you have to explain that we do it differently. So that's been good. So it's good that there's more awareness. Now more people realise that this psychological thing, so that was a lot I talked about a lot about the psychological effects of clutter. And a lot of my clients are people going through grief or divorce. So it's never just, they've just got a lot of stuff. There's always something underlying and people don't realise that until, you know, I talk about it or I work with them, then, you know, when I work with them, the things come out that there's a grief, you know, they've they've had a death in the family or they've gotten divorced or something. So, yeah,

Lesley  23:00  
quite often in trauma at some point and sometimes more serious than others. Now, I can't let you say something like that about Marie Kondo without exploring that a little bit more. So. Nice way. So no, we think Marie Kondo has been fantastic for our industry. There's absolutely no doubt about that. Yes. And it's raised awareness. And people understand what that is, as you say, people are like, Oh, you're like Marie Kondo. And she has fantastic methodology but it's probably different to certainly the way that Ingrid and I work and the way that things work. So do you think there's any anything that you see in Marie Kondo as methodology that does work and what what you are a little bit more in doubt about

Shelina  23:46  
the thing that works, I don't like the folding the folding of the the T shirts because it makes it more creased, but the use of I fold in a different way but put it into boxes, and that actually does work in shelves. So you can't put you know, it's awkward to put clothes it ends up being just thrown in. So if you had the boxes, it is more useful. But the taking everything out of the wardrobes and closets and putting it onto the bed and then dealing with it. I have had one client want to do that because she read the book first came out and she had a nervous breakdown and disappeared for two and a half hours. So then I had to try not have a breakdown dealing with a mountain of clothes because she had eight wardrobes, about three suitcases full of clothes and clothes under a bed that we put onto the bed. So there was a big mountain and then I had to separate everything into categories and take it to the living room and give it to her to check what she was going to keep and not keep because she couldn't handle going into the bedroom. So I always say to people don't take everything out especially if you've got big closets because it will make you have a breakdown. So yeah, don't do that. And what's the oh the thanking everything, thanking each piece of item. No, don't do that.

Lesley  24:59  
You don't really do it. The end Not really a thank Rosalina I can see that.

Shelina  25:03  
No, I'm gonna get on with it. We're just get straight to the point. If you want to say thank you say at the end to all of the bags that are going for donation, just just just do it then yeah.

Lesley  25:15  
No, I agree. I think that's one of the that's one of the big things. And you know, there are so many, you know, and I'm sure people that are working as Marie Kondo trained professional organisers also work in a very different diverse way, depending on who they're working with. But I think if you read the book, and you apply her rules, rigidly, then you're going to come unstuck because there's not a one size fits all to anybody, even though you know, the sort of methodology and the order in which you should do things. You know, there are certain people, you know, if you are Kim Kardashian, for example, she's not going to want to do a close first, not that she's going to be doing any decluttering ever. And I wouldn't have thought but hey, you know, clothes are going to be her thing. And so she might find it easier to do a different category first. And so yeah, we definitely look at what the client was saying to us, and determine what order we do things based on their history. And so there's not a one size fits all. So some of the core principles, I kind of think maybe that needs to be evaluated in a slightly different way. If you do want to know a little Yeah, if you do want to know a little bit more about Marie Kondo, and what Ingrid and I think we did a podcast, I think it was podcast 18, where we went into her methodology in detail and gave our own opinions on that. So if that's something you're interested in, I'm pretty sure Shelina has probably done a podcast on Marie Kondo as well.

Shelina  26:32  
I think we did one on when she did her, her show came out on Netflix, I did it there. And that's the only time my producers allowed me to do one. Because he knows I

Lesley  26:43  
think it's interesting. And so it's not, you know, sometimes it can sound like it's sour grapes is hugely successful. And that's so important for us as an industry to see. But sometimes if people apply those rules, rigidly, as I say, then it can be a little bit more tricky. So just beware. Yeah, everyone says, oh, so shillelagh. Thank you so much. I think it is really interesting to hear about other people's experiences as an organiser, because homes are very different and you're working in a very different style of home than I would typically work in. So that's what I find fascinating. I hope our listeners have found that fascinating, too. You've obviously got a huge social media following. You've got your podcasts as well, Shelina. So tell our listeners where they can find out more about you.

Shelina  27:23  
So you can find me on declutterme so its D-E-C-L-U-T-T-E-R-M-E, on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook and also on all the podcast players. It's usually next to declutter hub. So yeah, you can see us both together. 

Lesley  27:40  
And that's absolutely brilliantly the thank you so much, and we will hopefully see you in the UK and then next Abdur conference, where we're going to have another blast.

Shelina  27:50  
Yeah, Inshallah, as they say, here, so yes, hopefully soon. 

Lesley  27:54  
Just before we sign off, Shelima, I would just like to remind our listeners that we have a free five day challenge starting on Monday, the 14th of September, which is very, very soon, so there's still time for you to sign up. Go to declutter hub.com forward slash reset challenge for all the details that you need. And we really look forward to you joining us who does not love a decluttering challenge. So listeners, thank you so much for taking the time to listen today. If you'd like to get more tips and advice. Please do follow us on social media. We're on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook as declutter hub and have a lively supportive Facebook group where we chat all things clutter, you can search for the declutter hub community, and you'll find us there. And don't forget about our fabulous membership and courses you can find everything you need freebies, courses and membership options in our shop, declutter hub.com And if you don't want to miss the next weekly episode, please do subscribe to the declutter podcast on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher and iHeartRadio. And it will pop into your notifications every Friday. See you next time.

Outro  29:02  
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