Image of a woman smiling into camera, guest, Katie Mortram
Episode 319 – Katie Mortram from Good Housekeeping chats all things clutter

We are delighted to welcome Katie Mortram onto the podcast today. As the Household Advice Editor for Good Housekeeping, Katie looks after all things cleaning and decluttering. She started out as a Junior Tester in the Good Housekeeping Institute 10 years ago, and nowadays focuses on keeping their cleaning content up to date and accurate, testing relevant products and learning about the latest methods and trends along the way. Today we’re going to delve into the methods she’s come across and ask her what she really thinks and what has worked for her along the way.
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Transcript of this podcast episode
00:00
We are delighted to welcome Katie Mortram onto the podcast today as the household advice editor for good housekeeping. Katie looks after all things cleaning and decluttering. She started out as a junior tester in the Good Housekeeping Institute 10 years ago, and she's tested plenty of appliances in her time too, including dishwashers and washing machines. Nowadays, she focuses on keeping their cleaning content up to date and accurate, testing relevant products and learning about the latest methods and trends along the way. Today, we're going to delve into the methods she's come across and ask her what she really thinks and what has worked for her along the way. You

00:44
You're listening to the declutter hub podcast bringing you tried and tested no nonsense, tips and advice from the leading experts in decluttering and organizing your home. Now here's your host, Lesley Spellman.

01:02
You Hello and welcome listeners. I'm Lesley. We're delighted you're here to join us as part of your decluttering journey. So whether you're brand new today or have been listening for ages, we want to say thank you so much for being here. It means so much to Ingrid and I that you turn up every week to listen to and support us while we talk all things decluttering and organizing. We'd love to help more people with their quest for a clutter free home. And our podcast is a fantastic way for people to be inspired to take action. We have a favor to ask. If you like what you hear, be sure to hit the follow, subscribe or like button on your podcast, player, share us with your friends, or share your thoughts on the podcast by leaving a review. Welcome to the podcast. Katie, so happy to have you here.

01:51
Thank you for having me

01:54
so your job sounds like every professional organizer's dream to be fair, testing products, talking about decluttering, looking at cleaning stuff. If you love a home, then it's the perfect job. So I'm interested to know a little bit more about it. What's the role that you've got, and how did it come about? And tell us about your role. So

02:13
as you said, I basically look after all things cleaning and decluttering for good housekeeping. And so alongside with the GHI, we test the latest products that are sort of released in the area, and I try out firsthand some of the latest and popular methods from previous years myself as well. And then my work basically features in print and online too. So it gets a chance to feature in the Good Housekeeping app and the Good Housekeeping newsletter too, for good home, right?

02:41
Okay, so, so your role has morphed throughout the years. Of course, you started out as a tester. So what does that entail? I'm intrigued. What's it? What does it entail to be a tester for these appliances?

02:53
Yeah, of course. So I started as a junior tester, as you said, and slowly worked my way up. I was originally sort of spread across all the different departments in the Good Housekeeping Institute. So they've got four major departments. You've got beauty, health and fitness, homes and food. That is all of them. I believe. I think it's sorry they've changed a little over the years, but I think that's all of them at the moment. And I worked my way up to consumer tester when I was more focused in the homes department, and then I became the manager before I became the household advice editor. So I primarily focus on major domestic appliances that be like dishwashers and washing machines and tumble dryers. But I also tested a lot of household products too. So like all your everyday cleaners, like oven cleaners, surface cleaners, but really, if it didn't fall under the other categories, it sort of fell under homes. So we tested all kinds of things, you can imagine, really, everything from obviously small appliances as well, like kettles and air fryers, but we could do bedding, you know, sleep products, although that's probably more health and wellness now, but yeah, in the time we did everything and anything, really.

04:02
I suppose what we do as readers of good housekeeping is that we read these reviews, but we have no idea where these things are actually, where this testing is actually taking place. And so to know there's a whole area where people are just looking at things and coming up with these ideas about what the speed of them is and how good they are, is really, really interesting. So you've you've changed more into household advice now, and you definitely focused on the cleaning world and decluttering world. So you must have come across a few different people, a few different methodologies of decluttering over the years. So I'm interested to know how these things land on your in your inbox, then probably and where you take it from there to determine whether or not this is something that Good Housekeeping are going to promote or talk about. How does that all work?

04:49
Yeah, of course. So a lot of it's actually done from research, because obviously we wanted to cover pre existing methodology as well as those that have already come out. So a. Lot of it's from, sort of what I found from digging around online. And then you also get people reach out to you to say different, sort of, there's two different perspectives with decluttering. Really, you've got wide scale methods which may cover a whole home, and then you've got sort of handy little tips and tricks, you know, which you can add to your preferred method to make the task a little easier, or maybe a method to clear a certain space, rather than, it's hard to describe some of like, sort of methods of thinking and offers like, physically how to do things, okay,

05:31
okay? And so over those years and so, so what do you think? So can we, can we ask? Are you a clean, tidy and decluttered person generally. So are you following the advice that's landing in your inbox?

05:46
Yes. So I am generally very clean and tidy, but I'm also a realist. You know, people today have a lot of commitments and responsibilities, which mean we can't some of us can't declutter every day. You know, we have to do it around our schedule. So for me, it's a bit like, obviously I have to declutter. It's part of my job, but then I also have to have the clutter to declutter. So I have to let it build where possible and also utilize it. So I'm in a bit of a unique position, but I'm generally a very tidy person. I always have been. And yeah, I just basically, I've got different rooms in my house where I've tried out different methods, but, yeah, we're running low now, so I might have to go to family houses soon. Do

06:27
you know what? You're absolutely right. It's so hard if you are generally a decluttered person. Are you trying to create content or anything like that? You know, because we obviously have a membership, we have loads of videos and everything that we try and create, but it's difficult to create clutter if you don't have it, you know what I mean? So it's kind of, you know, so it never looks like it does ordinarily for people. So we can, you know, we might have messy draws. It's more about tidying things up an organization, really, rather than decluttering. So it's difficult to get decluttering content if you don't have a lot of stuff. So I feel your pain. So which sort of what methodology really hit home with you that you found across the years? So I've tried

07:05
quite a few some of my favorites. So one of them is Swedish death cleaning by Margarita, sorry, Margaretta, Meg Newson, so basically, the idea with that it's your decluttering to ease the task for your loved ones after you've passed on. So initially it was created for those later on in life, but as she sort of says in her book, you can do it at any age. It's just an idea of keeping only what means the most to you, so you still want to have emotion in the picture. It's not about getting rid of everything, but it's about being thorough and sort of amending your mindset as you declutter to think, you know, did I even know I had this before I got here? You know, what does it actually mean to me? And you sort of same as quite a few other methods. You're working through it in categories for methods which would be easier, sorry, from areas which would be easier to declutter to areas which will be harder. So you sort of hone your skill set as you move on. So you finish on sentimental items, you know, and the such. But you'd start with, say, clothes or or perhaps books, you know, things which you could quickly swap through. I found that is quite effective as well, because I saved my photos for last, and I could just quickly, I thought, and it was, I keep a lot of greeting cards as well. It's just a habit I've always had. I can't bring myself to get rid of them as soon as the holidays are over or birthdays sort of been and gone a few weeks ago. So I ended up I had like, a whole drawer full of them, which was terrible, but again, it's just sentiment. So you can't just get rid of things, but because I'd done all these other areas first, and then I got to it, I found I could just whip through them, and I knew exactly which ones I wanted to keep, you know, only ones which were, like milestone birthdays or, you know, special occasions, like when I finally passed my driving tests and things like that.

08:56
It's so important, as you say, to build up. So we call it building muscle, you know, so we follow a similar methodology. But it's interesting that you talk about books and clothes being easy, because we would disagree, actually, in most cases, with that, and books becomes very late into our decluttering journey, because of all the emotional connection that many, many of our people have. I think clothes is somewhere in the middle, but we typically start with things like kitchens bathrooms, where the decisions are much more practically based, rather than emotions based. Although there definitely are still loads of emotions around in the kitchen and bathroom, they are and you can break it right down in kitchens and bathrooms into much smaller areas where something like clothes and something like books, particularly for those people that are real book lovers. You know, these are difficult things, and people are kind of like, hands off my books, and so emotionally, it's a massive wrench. But it all very much depends on who you are, I think. And you know, whether you do have that emotional connection to books, I don't. Many people don't. They just they're a practical commodity. Say that you read and enjoy and let go of and pass on and all those kind of things. But some people view it very much as a collection. So it's interesting that all these different methodologies have you know, we've got ours, other people have got theirs, and something will resonate with somebody. So Swedish death cleaning definitely resonates with somebody, because there's something that sits behind it that connects with people, that people go, yeah, absolutely. I don't want to leave that for my children, for example. And then it's obviously developed from there. Are there any others that you have found along the years, across the years, that you think have really hit home with one key message? I think it's, you know, for us, our key message is emotions, first, stuff second. And so we think that the stuff is a byproduct, almost of decluttering, something that happens, obviously, Swedish deck cleaning, to what it says on the tin. Is there any other methods that you think hit home with people?

10:53
I think the ski slope methods, quite a popular one as well. So that was founded by Anita yakota. So she was an interior designer turned therapist, I believe. And the idea of that is, it's just quite straightforward. It's focusing on a single room. I've used it on my bedroom. So the idea is to break up the workload a little bit. You're going to work across it as if you were traversing down a ski slope, to sort of start in two corners, and then you work your way along the sides. You know, go from corner to corner and side to side, work your way along. And in doing that, you know, by creating different zones, you've got a particular route to follow, the work doesn't feel so overwhelming, and yet it just breaks it up, basically. And you know exactly if you do need to pause and take a break, that's which I think is important, because even a bedroom could just turn into a huge project depends on the size of the room. That's probably the only place where the book doesn't mention much about that. And I do think taking breaks is important. But the good thing about the ski slope method is you can kind of remember where you left off and easily get back to it. So it's great for that. The only other sort of floor I found with that one was, you've got to sort of bear in mind it's unlikely, but if you had clutter somehow in the middle of a room or perhaps hidden, so like in the bedroom, there's under the bed, you know, by just working my way along the edges, you might forget about that. So it's about being thorough as well. But it was effective, and it did make me end up decluttering an entire bedroom in one day, which I never thought was achievable, but I think it keeps you positive. For our positivity as you declutter is so important, because if you feel like it's dragging it just, you know, it can bring down the mood, then you're not decluttering as well as you could. The whole thing just spirals. So I think it's brilliant for that. Yeah,

12:38
fantastic. Again, it's something to it's just something that sticks in your mind, similar to the spark joy philosophy with Marie Conner, there's just like one thing that sticks in your mind. Ultimately, whenever we're decluttering, we have to go through the whole process anyway. We have to go through the emotions, understand our emotional connection to clutter and then break it down into something that's going to be manageable and achievable, and understand that it's not linear. You know, understand that we're going to have difficulties along the way, but it's useful to have that thing to kind of cling on to that we can keep coming back to, whether that's sweetness, death, cleaning, whether it's Spark, joy, whether it's the ski slope method. So yeah, that's really interesting that you've, um, those are the two that have really stuck with you. So you've talked about the fact that you do a lot of decluttering yourself as part of your work. And what's your personal journey with decluttering before you started doing this for a role, or, you know, presumably, then maybe you actually started with good housekeeping early doors. And so you've not had much cluttered, you know, whilst you've been doing this job. So what would you say with your Do you think you struggle? I know you've said that you need to kind of let it pile up so you can actually do some work. That's a difficult one as well. But do you see anybody around you? Perhaps, that struggles with clutter? What's your personal journey with it?

13:50
To be honest, I still do have clutter, even after all these methods. You know, it happens, especially where there's a drawer or a cabinet which I don't go into regularly. I found that I used to, you know, put things out of sight, out of mind. If it was a draw, I'd open regularly, then it would bother me. But if it's something I couldn't see, and I'd forget about that's where the cutter would be. So where I've done methods, I kind of have a sit in a think of a where haven't I been in a while? Makes me sound like I'm in a huge house. I'm not. I'm in a little flat, but you'd be surprised how many things you can squeeze into, like hidden corners and crevices, you know. So, so, yeah, I do have clutter, no doubt. But before I sort of started all these methods, I did struggle with it quite a lot, just the idea of letting things go where, you know, I might, sort of think I haven't got the value out of this item yet. It might have been something because I think we've all got clothes we've bought at some point or another, and we've either worn them once, or we've just never even really had a chance to wear them. You know, I'm guilty of having things which still have the tags in, which is terrible, but letting go of things like that, or thinking of what to do with them. Was where the difficulty was for me. And the great thing about these methods is it's just giving me a whole new perspective, you know, on how these items can have a second life and the difference they can make, you know, with giving to charity and donating as well as you know, I sort of, I think I'll try and give an example. There was when I decluttered my wardrobe recently, there was a handbag I had quite an attachment to, but to be honest, it was, you know, one I wore when I was younger. I couldn't really, really wear it nowadays, but I didn't want to let it go because of the sentimentality of it. But I have, you know, a niece who's quite young, and I was like, oh, maybe she'd like it. And I just sent a photo to my sister, and they're like, Yeah, she'd love it. And suddenly it's gone from being hidden in the wardrobe to being used again, out and about, and I see it more, you know, which makes all the difference. So I think I've sort of gone from one position of clinging to it to an even better position of now I see it, you know. Now it's got more worth

16:00
absolutely, absolutely. So we're going to pop to a break Katie, and then after the break, we're going to come back and we're going to talk a little bit about how good housekeeping helps in the decluttering world and all of the fun stuff that you do on a weekly basis. So welcome back to the podcast. We're here talking to Katie mortram from Good Housekeeping magazine here in the UK. So how do you see Katie the role of Good Housekeeping in the decluttering and organizing world? What do you do to help people?

16:30
So GH should obviously continue to test the latest products and methods firsthand, which gives us an expert overview of the decluttering world, I suppose, and by knowing what will work for different personalities and circumstances, we can advise on the best methods and tips to help for those you know looking to declutter their space, whether they're new to decluttering or, you know, they're a seasoned declutterer, if that's the word,

16:59
yeah, exactly right. Okay. And so what? How does good housekeeping? So obviously, there's a physical magazine, and what else do you have then that that helps people with decluttering.

17:14
So obviously, all of our online content, which reflects what goes into the magazine, but there's a lot more on offer there as well. So on there, you can sort of see firsthand, different experiences of people trying the methods, not just myself, but others on the team as well. And we've also got, you know, focused pieces as well, where we can sort of say, you know, steps to declutter a specific space. So best tips if you're facing, you know, a wardrobe, or, you know, shoe cupboard, or just picking a spot. And we get experts to weigh in as well other experts. It's not just ourselves. It's kind of a big contribution effect, really. I

17:53
just want to ask you a question, really, do you think that, you know, you've been doing this job for quite a while now? Do you think the landscape of decluttering has changed. Because, I mean, just the reason why I asked that question is we're definitely seeing, at the moment, we've, I've been decluttering for 15 years, right? So we've been doing this quite a long time. Then all of a sudden it became a little bit more into the public space, particularly when Marie Kondo, which is about eight, nine years ago, came into with her books and everything, which was incredible. So real interest then started in decluttering back then, and certainly the first steps towards decluttering being seen as a positive thing, being seen as emotions based as well. So that all sort of started then. Then it kind of gathered momentum, and it's gone into a kind of hints and tips and hacks and reels and Instagram and decanting things and all of that kind of stuff. And so we've gone definitely down that route quite recently, and now we're seeing the tides turning again in the decluttering world, I think again, back into the fact that this is difficult, emotional stuff for people, and perhaps what this sort of Instagram, or, you know, any kind of social content is creating is a difficult place for people to understand themselves within, because everything looks perfect. And this is not just in the decluttering world. Obviously, it's everywhere. It's in beauties and everything. And so, do you see the tides changing and the appetite for these kind of things having shifted over the years.

19:22
Yeah. I mean, I'd agree with you entirely on that order. To be honest, I think there's sort of a constant back and forth between emotion and sort of practicality. Of, yes, emotion is definitely important, but you know, you need to, you do need to get results at the end of the day. So it's kind of like a constant force between the two. And I think it's not necessarily the right thing. It's not of the wrong thing. But I think a way, you know, a lot of manufacturers have gone around it is they're now offering products, you know, which is all about storage solutions, so making the most of your space, which is important, as we say, you know, while still making things look neat. So in that. Way, you kind of get to keep what you want while being able to hopefully access it still easily. But that isn't always practical. As I found myself, you know, I've, I've purchased, do you know, the little shoe organizers, the little plastic shelves, so you can stack them, and they take up half the space, and it's brilliant. But, you know, I realized by the end, I was like, Oh, this looks great. And then I came back to it a couple of weeks later, and I was like, I'm still not using 75% of these shoes. They're just sitting there because I can't let go of them, you know. So I do think it's a balance between keeping what's important, but making sure you use what your keep, what use, what you keep, or what you keep does have value to you. You know, more than it's just sitting there. I think

20:43
it's really spending the time, isn't it, to evaluate what you need. And when we're big advocates of storage being way, way, way down the line, do you know what I mean? So do the decluttering? Do the organizing, do the thinking, do the mindset change? Know what you want, and then think about the storage at that point and trying to get something really bespoke that's going to work for you and many people in our world as well. Love the idea of fancy storage solutions, but more often than not, it's something very simple that's going to help you know, the simpler the better. Sometimes, unless you are really into that, you know, you've got to evaluate your own behavior to see whether or not that's going to work for you. So if you're generally a more messy person, having something that's quite intricate, intricate to maintain is going to be really difficult. So I think, but we can be forgiven for for reading content and thinking that's going to change. You know what I do and how I do that. And so how do you manage to get the balance right with that then? Because obviously a lot of people are taking advice from your magazine and your content. So how can you get the balance right between promoting products and making sure that people are not buying things that are actually going to make the problem worse?

21:53
Honestly, I think it's first hand experience is always the best thing because, you know, it's all well and good recommending. Oh, this looks nice, you know, double the space here or there. But unless you try it for yourself, there might, it might just become another thing you're buying. You know, in the end of the day, you're bringing more stuff in. So I think it's all about first person experience, really, and being realistic, and keeping in mind that some products, as you say, will work for some more than others. It depends who you are, how your space is, what you tend to keep. And you know, because if you've obviously got too much in the first place, no storage solution is going to help. You're going to need to get through the problem and ultimately break the habit of keeping clutter before storage solutions can help ease, you know, the overload

22:42
Exactly. And I think, you know, you talk then about the kind of people that for whom storage works and who doesn't, is transition is also a big one. So for many years as a professional organizer, you know, I've never sort of used glass containers and decanted things, particularly in my pantry. But now that my kids have left home, got a little bit more time on my hands, a little bit more desire to do that, and to have that. I've started to do that even though, but that's a transition. That's because I'm at a different stage of my life, and I now that kind of makes me tick to do that kind of thing, where for many years, I'm like, just didn't have the time. And so it's understanding that things can change as well. You know, your journey with decluttering will change. Your journey with stuff will change. What makes you tick will change in every decade of your life and so and every transition that comes your way. So it's things like that as well. So before we go Katie, I just want to ask you, because you're at the forefront of everything that's going on in the cleaning and decluttering world, what do you see the trends are that are coming in 2025

23:40
I think trends which aren't so demanding of people's time is going to be the big one, which, as I said earlier, takes, you know, account of other commitments to like children and work. And I think, you know, any trends that perhaps break up the workload a bit more, because it's not always convenient to be like, right? This Saturday, I'm going to, you know, declutter the attic. I'm going to work through it. I'm going to be done by five o'clock, and then I can do X, Y, Z, you know, it's never as simple as that, unfortunately, is usually the truth. So I think it's all about understanding what you know, what you've got, and what you want to achieve, picturing the result, and be like, What do I need to do to get there, and I think a lot of trends will become more, you know, focused around that I think will be important. And for clean, it sort of comes hand in hand with cleaning, I know. So I think it's more about cleaning, what you can, when you can, but still as often as you need to. So without, you know, cleaning less than you should. So break, as I said, sort of breaking down chores into smaller segments. So I've started doing this myself. I did used to, because my partner works on Saturdays. I'd be like, right Saturday is my cleaning day. He's at the house. You know, it's a good chance to do what I need to do. But recently, I've started. So I sort of clean for an hour on my Thursday and Friday. Mornings both days, and I'm like, right? That day I'm going to do the two bathrooms. That day, I'm going to do the kitchen. And when I wake up on the Saturday, I feel so much more at ease and refreshed thinking, Oh, I've only got to do, you know, the dusting and the vacuuming and the mopping today. That won't take me a couple of hours, if that. So you sort of feel a lot more free, and it just takes a lot more the pressure off. Some people might prefer to do it all in one chunk, but I do think that's the way the trends going at the moment, with so many other commitments and things we want to do, definitely. And I

25:29
think, you know, just talking about that, I think the possibility of hybrid working and working from home. You know, we're, we're big advocates of using what used to potentially be commuting time for something that's going to then free up more time through the weekend. So presumably, then, Katie, you're at home, I don't know whether you're working from home on those days, and you go, you know, I'm going to spend an hour before I sit down at my desk, or during the day or whatever. So it's useful to spend that time to do that. Well, thank you so much for sharing your Yeah. Really interesting to listen to you about the different decluttering methods, how things are changing, and how the landscape of decluttering and organizing might look different in 2025 tell us a little bit more about where we can find you, how good housekeeping, what good housekeeping are doing at the moment. Let us know. Katie, what is that?

26:14
Yeah, of course. So if you do want to hear more from me, you can come join us at Good Housekeeping Live, which is running from Thursday the 14th to Saturday the 16th of November. That's at the business design center in Islington, London. I'll be myself chatting with Dilly Carter from BBC One sort your life out. And that'll be on the art of decaturing. And there's lots of other panel members there too. So you can sort of hear from Anton dubec and as such, and you can buy tickets@goodhousekeepinglife.co.uk or if you're a GH VIP member, you'll already have a ticket for free. So that's worth looking into. So the VIP membership is celebrating the Good Housekeeping Institute. It's actually 100 years old this year, so we've been going for quite a while with our testing, and basically, with that membership, you'll get access to every print and digital issue of good housekeeping. You get the chance to test products with us at the Good Housekeeping Institute, so you can be part of the panel. And as I said, entry into good housekeeping live. There's a food festival there as well. So as well as all you know, the authors there talking about their books and interesting panel discussions. There's also a Christmas event as well, so you can sort of buy Christmas gifts in advance. And there's the also the GH book club membership comes with that. And there's full use of the Good Housekeeping app, which I mentioned earlier, and a year subscription to another Hearst magazine, so if you've got other magazines you love, and digital access to Daily Mail as well,

27:43
perfect. So I'm just interested actually, because obviously, we're global podcast, and good housekeeping exists in other areas of the world, right? So is there a good housekeeping in the US, and is good housekeeping in all of the other English speaking countries? Yeah,

27:59
we have a good housekeeping in America as well, with their own print publication too. Fabulous,

28:06
fabulous. So we will pop all of those links into the show notes for you so you can find out a little bit more about Katie, a little bit more about good housekeeping. But for now, Katie, thank you so much for coming on the declutter podcast, and we want to wish you the best of luck with your event in November.

28:21
Thank you so much.

28:28
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Episode 319 – Katie Mortram from Good Housekeeping chats all things clutter

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