Guest Dana smiling into camera wearing a pink tshirt
Episode 330 – Dana K White, A Slob Comes Clean, on the role of spirituality in decluttering

Dana K White is a powerhouse in our global decluttering community and is best known as author and podcast host of A Slob Comes Clean. With over 17 million podcast downloads and 4 books under her belt she is helping people all over the globe with their clutter. We are delighted to welcome her onto the podcast today to share her expertise, tips, tricks and advice with us. We are also going to delve into why she has chosen now to share the spiritual side of her decluttering journey.
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Transcript of this podcast episode
00:00
Dana k white is a powerhouse in our global decluttering community, and he's best known as author and podcast host of a slob comes clean with over 70 million podcast downloads and four books under her belt, she's helping people all over the globe with their clutter. We are so delighted to welcome her onto the podcast today to share her expertise, tips, tricks and advice with us.

00:30
You're listening to the declutter hub podcast, bringing you tried and tested no nonsense tips and advice from the leading experts in decluttering and organizing your home. Now here's your host, Lesley Spellman,

00:53
hello and welcome listeners. I'm Lesley. We're delighted you're here to join us as part of your decluttering journey. So whether you're brand new today, or have been listening for ages, we want to say thank you so much for being here. It means so much to Ingrid and I that you turn up every week to listen to and support us while we talk all things decluttering and organizing. We'd love to help more people with their quest for a clutter free home. And our podcast is a fantastic way for people to be inspired to take action. We have a favor to ask. If you like what you hear, be sure to hit the follow, subscribe or like button on your podcast player. Share us with your friends, or share your thoughts on the podcast by leaving a review. Welcome Dana. How exciting is this? Thank

01:36
you for having me on your space is so beautiful. I love it.

01:40
Oh, thank you. Thank you. And so is yours. Well, we have to have a nice backdrop. I think if we had, like, a messy backdrop, it wouldn't be great, would it in our decline? Yeah, that would not, would not be practicing what we preach. But of course, Ingrid, and I have always, you know, people in our world know that we are fairly organized, and always have been. We've met. We haven't come from a place of real struggle, and I know that your journey has definitely involved struggling and then seeing the light, and that's what you talk about a lot in your slob comes clean. Dana, so let's start. Let's go right back to beginning. Dana, tell me about how your journey started.

02:16
I was born messy. I mean, I was the messy kid with the messy room. I had the messy desk at school, I had the messy locker in high school. I had a messy apartment when I was single. I thought when I got married that I wouldn't be messy anymore. Because I thought, Okay, now it's going to matter, right? Like I'm going to have some identity based on my home. I was still working full time, you know? But always before I thought, Oh, well, that's just not my focus. That's the reason I'm not organized, right? Is, of course, I like things neat and organized. But after I got married, I was just as messy as I had ever been, and it was still a struggle. But that point it started to feel like, Wait, is something wrong here? You know, like, is there what? What's going on? Well, it wasn't until after I had kids, and I was a stay at home mom when my kids were babies, and I did not magically become organized like I had assumed that I would once I was completely focused on it, right? Well, it turns out that most people, even if they were organized before, once they have kids, it's a struggle, right? But I assumed that once I care and focus, I will obviously be able to do this, because generally in life, I can do things when I care and I focus right. And yet it was not magically cured at all. So the way I started writing about this was I wanted to be a writer. I was a theater arts teacher before I had kids, so I have a creative brain. Have a creative streak in me. I've got to get that out. And the state of my home was keeping me from doing that. And so as a compromise practice blog, I started writing about that, just as a way to stay focused and try to get this figured out so that then I could write about the things I actually wanted to write about. Felt competent to write about. And it turned out that I am not the only one who struggles the way that I did. I really thought I was the only one because I had never heard anybody talk about this struggle and this just complete confusion over why is this so hard when it doesn't seem to be hard for other people? So as I wrote, I, you know, ended up having other people say that they related. And it's 15 years later, and I'm still writing about this thing. It was not a practice blog. And what I realized over time was that the piece that was missing out there was how to go from completely confused and trying, but it never working, to Oh, I understand the basic concepts and you know, like I'm. Ever going to tell somebody how to have a perfectly, beautifully organized space, right? Like, that's not my job. It's not my place in this. It's not my niche. You know, in all of this, my niche is, if you're completely overwhelmed and confused, I can explain it and teach you how to get to a point where you understand and you can do the work to get the stuff out.

05:18
I think it's so interesting Dana, because we've just come out of it. We're just fresh out of doing our reset, your home challenge. And I think it all starts with that validation that you're talking about. People need to understand, first of all, that they're not the only people, because we can be forgiven for that, right? Because people are sort of, you know, a lot of people around us have organized homes, or we feel like they've got organized homes, because that's the part of their home that we're going into, and we just feel ashamed. We feel as if we're the only ones, you know. And this often it stems from what we've been taught as children or not taught. And so there are so many factors that come into play, but I think it does start with that, oh, it's not just me. And so by you writing your blog, then you build a community of people around you, as we do as well here in the declutter hub, who kind of know that they're not alone. And that's the first steps, isn't it? So where did you get started? Because that's the number one question, isn't it, when it comes to decluttering.

06:14
So I had no idea where to start. I had tried. It is not that I was just for the first time trying. I had tried all the methods, I had read, all the things, I had done, all the things, and I would do okay for a little while, and then it would go right back to being a disaster. So the way that I started was out of complete despair. I was just like, Listen, my friends whose homes are under control consistently, like you can show up and they're not embarrassed to let you in, right? Their kitchens are always under control. And I didn't know how they did that, you know, because I was like, here's the thing. I thought that doing the dishes was like an hour job every day, and so I would then reason that I didn't have time. I was busy with little kids and all this. I didn't have time to spend an hour working in my kitchen every day, right? And so therefore I would put it off and and so what I started with was I said, I don't know how they do it, but I am going to keep my dishes done every day, like I'm just going to and I didn't say I'm going to do them at this time. And I just said, I'm just going to keep them done. That's my goal. That changed everything, right? Like it freed up so much time, strangely, because I now call it dishes math, right? Like, one day's worth of dishes only takes 1520 minutes. I didn't know that, because I always waited until I was out of dishes, and we were drinking out of measuring cups, you know, like I would wait so long that then it would take five hours to do the dishes, and I would do the math and go, well, then divide it by five, and that's an hour. You know? It takes 1520, minutes. If you put it off for a day, it takes an hour. So it doesn't work the way that math is supposed to work, you think, right? Because now you're having to rearrange things. It doesn't all fit in one load in the dishwasher or the sink. And then if you wait three days, it takes hours, right? And so when I kept the dishes done, then it was only taking me short amount of time in the kitchen, and it was freeing up time. And I started decluttering. I just was I gotta get stuff out of my house. I honestly thought that I was giving up and and like I felt like I wasn't doing enough to because I got to this point where I said, I don't even have it in me to get organized. Like I had always thought I needed to get organized. I was like, You know what? I'm not even going to worry about organizing right now. I'm just going to declutter. I'm just going to get stuff out of the house. And when I did that. That is when my house started to change, right? So I was freeing up time by starting with the daily tasks. And, you know, it's amazing how your house will stay under control if you do your dishes every day, right? And then in that freed up time I was decluttering. And that was when things, you know, started to like, stay under control and not constantly go back to being an explosion of stuff. And I realized, okay, decluttering was actually the thing I needed to do all along, not organizing, and I achieved the purposes that I wanted. From organizing, I could find my stuff, I could know what I had, I could access it easily. All that just from decluttering.

09:20
I've got a question then Dana, because this is something I think that a lot of people struggle with, which is it all goes into one horrible mess, doesn't it like your dishes, your clutter, your kind of stuff piled up on the surface? Do you think at that time, when you first got started, that you had a concept of what was the difference between decluttering, organizing, tidying and cleaning, or was it all like blending together? Because, I suppose, with the benefit of hindsight, you know now I know that what that was kind of resets and tidying, and we're doing the dishes, and I was doing decluttering, and a lot of people, of course, are kind of organizing their clutter, right? So do you? So how did you make that break? Through to understand the different components and how they all fit together. Yeah,

10:03
it really took time. So it was the thinking that I was so convinced that this was going to be another failure, you know, because I had tried so many times that I was starting as small as I possibly could with the dishes and that doing the dishes every day, not knowing the impact that it was going to have, was the thing that helped me see, okay, the maintenance stuff, the daily stuff, is actually where all the power is right. And then, as I did that, then I had time to declutter. So, so before, I used to put off cleaning the house, because it was so overwhelming. And then when I would clean the house, I would be catching up on all the daily stuff that I hadn't been doing that I should have been doing that didn't make sense to me to do, because I always thought of those as maintenance tasks. And I was like, why would I want to maintain this, you know? And so I would always think I've got to get my house cleaned and perfect, and then it will make sense to maintain. I didn't know the power of the maintenance things from the beginning, even when things were in chaos, right? So as I did that, I realized, okay, so I would start to clean, right? I would have to do that, and then I would have to declutter. But I was really just stuff shifting. I wasn't getting stuff out. I was moving everything from one space to another space. Because I was just arbitrarily asking, Do I want to keep this? Well, yeah, I want to keep it. I liked all my stuff, right? And so, but I didn't have places for it, so I was moving things around. And then by the time I actually got to the cleaning part, I was completely exhausted. So then that part never happened, hardly, because of all the other work that I was having to do to even get to that. So, you know, now I've realized there are layers to a clean house. There's the daily stuff, there's the clutter, and then there's the cleaning.

11:51
Yeah, absolutely no. It's so interesting. Listen to you, and it's like, where the where the power is in that, I think you know. So you're, you're saying the most important thing for you, really, is the daily stuff, right? So do you think you still maintain that? Or is that once the clutter has gone? Or, I know it's so hard because it's all so interwoven, isn't it, and you need to do successfully, but I suppose that light bulb moment when went on for you with the kind of tidy and daily maintenance routines, kind of side of things, right?

12:20
Yeah, I always say I'm like, the most important thing is to do your dishes. And because it's so easy to think I'm going to declutter today, I'm going to skip that. But then that just builds up, and any work that you do doesn't actually feel like you made an impact on your house, because your kitchen's still a disaster, right? So the first thing to do is do your dishes. That's the most important thing, and yet equally important is decluttering, like they have to go together. Those two things are incredibly powerful.

12:50
Let's talk about your title, a slob comes clean because, yeah, so brilliant, by the way. And so did you feel then that so that, you know, just calling yourself a slob, then at that point, obviously it's quite a negative term. Did you feel that way? I,

13:08
you know, so a big part of my story is that I didn't want to start this. I started it anonymously in the beginning, right? Like I didn't tell anybody who I what I was doing. There are still people in my life who don't really know what I do for a living, even though it's kind of a, you know, big thing. I do a lot of stuff now, but I didn't tell anyone. I didn't tell my husband what I was doing. I honestly that title, a slob comes clean, came to me and like you said, it's a catchy title, and I knew this is the title, but I didn't want to use it because I had many times in my life said it's not like I'm a slop, okay? Because I like things clean. I work on my house all the time, but I had nothing to show for it, right? Like you wouldn't believe that I worked on my house all the time because of how it looked, but I didn't want to call myself that word, and I couldn't think of another word, but I was so desperate to get starting. Once I get started, once I had this idea to, you know, do this practice blog and get it under control so I could start writing. And so, because I did that, and I called myself that a slob, it set me on, and it was anonymous, right? It set me on a path of being completely honest, like I had already said the worst thing that I had avoided saying about myself forever and because I was on this path of total honesty to my non existent audience. In the beginning, I had nothing, no reason to hold anything back, right like I had no reason to keep trying to justify or pretend, or, you know, make excuses. I was like, I'm just going to lay it all out there. Exactly what it is I'm thinking, why I resist these certain things that I know I should do, why, you know, all these different things. And so I'm incredibly thankful that I used that word, because as people started to relate to me, they. They, I would find out what I could about them. You know, back in the early days of blogging, and I would see that these were highly creative, intelligent women, and I would it helped me realize, okay, this slob thing, like identifying myself as that helped me to see that this is how my brain works. You know, we talked in the beginning. I'm not sure if it was while we're recording or not. You know about how this is natural for you, right? Like you're you're very natural. And so I was always very lost. And I would be like, What am I missing here? Right? The reality is, my brain works very differently from the brain of a naturally organized person. So I was very confused at the things that that some people who talk about this stuff assume that people know right, like I didn't know the things that I didn't know, right? And so when I realized that this is how my brain works, and it's directly related to my high level of creativity, that was actually a relief to go, oh, okay, this is, this is who I am. And that didn't give me an excuse for my house to be out of control. It actually gave me the freedom to go, Okay, I have to figure out what does work for me and my unique brain, right? So I always say, don't I'm not calling anyone else a slob? I am not encouraging you to call yourself a slob, because it is. It's a very confrontational word. You know, people never

16:29
say that, but it's the way that a lot of people think. Dana, do you know what I mean? So whether we say that word or not, it's the way that sort of negative self talk. And, you know, saying I'm not good enough. It encompasses perfectly the way people think, even if they're not articulating that. So I think it's an absolutely brilliant title. And I think you're right. It gave you the freedom then to move beyond that into your de slob application and things like that. So I think it's the perfect word. You know, it's interesting because my we're here at the declutter hub, my one to one business is called the clutter fairy. Am I a fairy waving a wand? Am I guess, like, you know what I mean, far from a fairy like, I think, but it's the perfect idea of, kind of waving a magic wand, and the clutter disappears, not that it happens that way, but it encompasses something that's people can relate to. And I think that's the most important thing. So sort of talking about that, you know, so you've, you've gone on this process, you're sharing everything you've, you know, seen the light, presumably, and all those kind of things. And during that time that you've been doing this Dana and sharing all of your fantastic work, and you've gone from having young kids that you mentioned before, which is when your journey sort of first started, and now I believe that you are in empty nester, right? So how have those transitions made you think about clutter. Has anything changed? Have you had different opinions about the way it all works, or anything like that? Anything to share on that?

17:50
Yeah, I just, I would say, you know, my daughter, who is in her freshman year of college, university, whatever I know, say it differently, right? So, she's she's 18 right now. She was three when I started, right and so I started with the little kids. She's my youngest, and nothing has changed as far as understanding the power of decluttering. Like you know, when I am feeling overwhelmed in my home, it's because I have too much stuff and I need to get rid of stuff, right? So I have this concept that I teach called your clutter threshold. It's the amount of stuff that you personally can easily keep under control. So for me, it's when my house starts to feel out of control. It's because I need to declutter somewhere so I get rid of things, and that does shift and change through different life phases, right? And so I am, you know, there were different phases of life. There was the toy phase, which I was just learning things at the toy phase, right? Like getting stuff out and seeing how much power there was, and giving them space to play, as opposed to space to put toys, you know. And then moving on into, you know, different phases of life, and them going through school and realizing the less stuff that we have for them to have to manage, the easier it is for them to manage and all that. And I am now getting to the point where I'm like, okay, I can often, not always, because I still don't, you know, live by myself, but I can put things down, and they stay in that place. Now, yeah, exactly, which is not a bad thing, right? You know, it's like, oh, okay, things can actually stay there for a little while, but, yeah, it's that ebbing and flowing of when life is extra bananas, then I maybe at a place where I need I have a lower clutter, clutter threshold. I need to get rid of more stuff so that it's easier to manage. Because I my focus is on other things, maybe on my career, outside of my home, or whatever, the more stuff that I have that I also have to manage is, is it makes it all difficult? Okay?

19:59
But it comes in phases. Dana, like, who knows what goes into you know, particularly if that's in your world. You know, when I was used to be out working. I don't do so much, one to one work anymore. But when I used to, I used to come back from doing a big, sort of busy decluttering job with a client where I'd just done jewelry or, you know, socks or something, and go, do you know what it's time I need to look at mine and then go for another page when I never thought there was a problem with it. So who knows what pops into your head and what head and what's going to drive you, I think, you know, talking about, you know, going through life, what I want to talk about as well, because this has been a really interesting time, you know, Ingrid and I built the deco tub more or less since the pandemic. And I think there's been a big shift in thinking since the pandemic. So I wanted to talk a little bit about whether you thought that the pandemic in itself, because everybody thought, didn't they this is my chance. This is my chance. I am going to declutter my house. And then they kind of got to the end of the pandemic thought, oh yeah, it's not really about the time, is it? It's about other things. So how do you think the pandemic changed things or not? The case may be, well,

20:58
I think it was a reality check. Like you said, most people assumed that the reason their house was a mess was because they didn't have time. They didn't have time at home to focus on it, and then they found out that was never the reason, which I do believe led to a lot of despair for a lot of people, you know, kind of kind of that rock bottom, like I was talking about for myself, of realizing weight. So it's not just my life circumstances. It's actually me right, like I'm I'm the issue. So I definitely think that that that has been the biggest challenge. I think for me, it's been, you know, the positive, the thing I had learned out because I the thing I had learned because I had kind of figured that out for myself when it didn't just magically happen when I was home, you know, full time was, you know, I declutter in a way that I don't have to have a set amount of time. Like, that's my whole shtick, or whatever, you know, like, that's my whole thing that I do is I declutter in a way to where I'm never going to where I'm never going to pull everything out of the space. Because I think that's what happened to a lot of people in the pandemic, right? Is they said, Okay, this is it. I'm home. I have nothing else to do. And so they drug everything out of their closet. They, you know, piled things all over, and they were like, Hey, this is it. I can do this now. And then got overwhelmed and shut down, which was my story, right? Is that I would do that, and then that would make me think I can't Declutter. I'm incapable of decluttering, because when I do what I think I'm supposed to do and pull everything out, it just causes me to shut down, and then I either end up living with it like that for a very long time, or I shove everything back in and where it maybe had a little bit of logic in how it was in there before, and now it's just one big jumbled mess. So, yeah, I think, I think it was mostly a reality check for a lot of people.

22:49
And I think, you know, a lot of people have more time on social media and things like that. And I think we can be forgiven as well for thinking that that's the way to do it, because obviously the social media is filled with 15/32, hacks on do this, do that. And you know, decluttering, if you're somebody that struggles, you know, there are certain, you know, you talked about your clutter threshold, right? So some people are fine, you know, and little bits of clutter bother them, and so they'll be fine with a tip and a hack and a trick and a 32nd reel or whatever, but there are so many people who are looking at those kind of things and thinking, I can do that, and that's when overwhelm sets in, because there's their problems are a little bit deeper than something that's going to be fixed in 15 seconds. What's your take on social media, sort of speedy social media tips and tricks?

23:37
I do. I completely agree with you on that. I think it is tips and tricks are great, but they are not the answer to real clutter issues, right? Like they are a way to finish up, a way to deal with something small, but when you're overwhelmed, like, for example, you know talking about the pull everything out of a space, which is my big thing that I don't do, right? So I you pull everything out of the space, you see an empty shelf. That empty shelf is like, and that gives you that same feeling as that quick tip or trick, right? Like, is somebody just showing a look, look, look, look, look, look, okay, the space is decluttered. And you're like, I love that. And but then you turn around and you see all the stuff that you have to deal with that you just pulled out. And that's where, that's what causes the overwhelm, right? And so I would love to do the whoosh, whoosh, you know, like before and afters, but, you know, I kind of sticked. I just grind my heels in to the ground, and I'm like, No, I'm going to show how this actually works, you know, because it's, it is that like you I love the way you put that. Of you know, there are some people who have a who get, you know, irritated by a little bit of clutter, and so they deal with a little bit of clutter. I honestly believe, you know, I think it's funny, because a lot of times people will say, Oh, you're going to be able to focus better and all this stuff when you don't have clutter. And I'm like, Yes, it is helpful. But the problem for a lot of us who really struggle with clutter very naturally, is that we can focus and get things done in the midst of the clutter, right? Like that's how the clutter got so bad, is we were able to zero in on a task and ignore it until all of a sudden it was so big that it was overwhelming, and then we shut down, right? So I don't, I always say, I don't see incremental mess. I don't see it happening. I see perfectly clean, and I go, and then I see completely messy, and I go, I'm overwhelmed, right? Like so it's the in between that I had to figure out that that's not natural for me to notice. Absolutely

25:38
no, it's so interesting.

25:39
We could talk all day, couldn't we? Of course, we of course, we need to go to a break in a moment, but we're going to come back. So we spoke. We spoke in the intro about the fact that you're on your fourth book. Have I got that right? Yes, yeah. And so within your and we're going to call it the de slob application process, you've never talked about the spiritual side of your decluttering until now, but now in your fourth book, you go you're talking about your spiritual journey with clutter. So we're going to pop to a break, and then we're going to come back and explore the Dana's fourth book. So welcome back, Dana. Absolutely delighted to talk to you about decluttering. We could talk all day, but we want to talk. I want to talk a little bit more about your new book, which is called Jesus doesn't care about your messy house. Now, spirituality and religion is not something we typically talk about on the decla podcast, but when you spoke to us and said, I'd love to come on and talk about this new book, we were like, Do you know what? Let's go down that route and see how that relates to our audience. So how did you land on that title? Where did it come from? Tell us a little bit about the origins of the book.

26:42
So I landed on that title because my other books don't have any spiritual focus in them at all, right? And that's actually very much on purpose, because a big part of my own journey, like we talked about in earlier, you know, when we were before the break, was learning to accept that this is how my brain works, right? And so a big part of my journey was the releasing of the shame around this issue, right? And so I didn't want to, I'm a Christian, but I didn't want to put any spiritual content in those first books, because so many times when you combine spiritual content with how to get your house under control. It it whether or not the author intended that, right? It brings a lot of shame for the person who's like, Okay, this was already an issue, and now you make it feel like a spiritual failure, right? And so I didn't want to have any of that combined in those first books. But the identity side of this is really important. As far as the title goes, I made I'm known for being a little bit blunt, you know, like, I'm like, I'm never going to try to hide something or pretend something, and so I didn't want anyone who follows me anyway to go into this book Thinking it, you know, didn't have anything spiritual in it, and then be blindsided by that. I'm like, you really can't mistake that. This is a spiritually focused book when you put Jesus in the title, right? So anyway, that that's just part of my personality, of like, I'm not one to, you know, bait and switch or whatever. Like, we're going to this. This book is about this. So it's really about the identity piece of it, and the releasing of the shame around this issue specifically for a lot of women who are Christians. It, you know, we won't go into all the reasons why, even though I do go into that some of the book. But like, you know it, it can be made to be like, Oh, well, you're not a good Christian woman. If this is hard for you, right? Like, that's whether people have said that or not. It's the way that a lot of women feel. So I want to take that out and just say, Listen, there is no need for shame in this. It's how you are. And God created me this way, so, you know, he's good with that. Yeah, I think you're

28:51
absolutely right. You know, it's just part of your identity, and it's part of stripping that back and going, Why does my brain work this way? And maybe you've got this extra thing that's over and above what a lot of people think people are grappling with and struggling with. And so I think it's, I think it's a really interesting way to go down it so, so it but, you know, the the title is blunt. Jesus doesn't care about your messy house. So tell us more about that title and what it actually Jesus cares about what? Doesn't care what. Tell me a little bit more about that. Yeah,

29:22
so it ultimately is a book about grace, right? It's about how, because it's very easy to get caught up spiritually in what I'm doing right, like, what I'm doing to try to please God, when, in reality, it's all about what Jesus already did, right? Like, it's, you know that. And so when I get to this point where I'm thinking, Okay, I'm going to work on my house, because this is what Jesus is asking of me, then I'm getting off track and getting away from that grace, and that grace being the fact that there is literally nothing I can do. It's all about what Jesus has already done, right? So that is the issue where things get like the. Phrase cleanliness is next to godliness, right? Like that is not in the Bible, but a lot of times people will assume that it's true. Like, okay, well, it may not actually say those words in the Bible, but it's a concept that's true, but it's one of those things where you can get really off track if you don't explore this issue of, no, no, this is not true. And here's why.

30:21
Let's talk a little bit more about shame then. So how do you think shame and feeling ashamed of your home? Which many, many people do? You know it comes from guilt. It comes from, you know, many years ago, people judging us. You know that all the time. So how do you think that that paralyzes people in their decluttering journeys. Well,

30:42
you know, it's not motivating. Shame is not motivating. And I think that a lot of very well meaning moms and grandmas and friends, you know, have, I don't want to say have shamed, but have said things that made someone feel shame, or made me feel shame, you know? Like, I mean, I hear it all the time. How in the world, I'm sure you experience this too, since it's your business, right? Like, do you ever feel like, Oh, my word. Are we talking about clutter again, among groups of women, right? Do you ever feel that?

31:13
Yeah, well, I definitely do. Definitely talking about clutter among

31:18
groups of women all the time, but, yeah, I

31:19
mean, but I do it as my job. But I'm always shocked when I'm with a group of friends. How many times this comes up, or people feel the need to say how they feel about their, you know, their family members who, you know, the hamper is right there, and they just left their socks next to it, you know, and and all these things that people say, and it's just kind of a common conversation that women have, right? And as the person who literally does not have any awareness of the fact that my socks are 18 inches from the hamper, instead of in the hamper, when other people are saying this stuff, and they're saying things like, oh my goodness, I can't believe that. You know, I mean, like, what is wrong with him? It's usually them saying that, right? And yet, I'm thinking, that's what I do, and it it becomes this issue of, like, what is wrong with me, right? Because I hear people make these statements, it's very easy to make statements about people who don't, you know, their house, I went in and her house was a total mess, and there was, you know, like, how did she not see that? How did he not see that? Whatever. And I'm like, I don't know how I don't see it. And so all of those things, it makes it feel very, you know, makes made me feel very ashamed. It brings a lot of shame, and because most people are not going from, okay, this is your reality. This is how you are. Here's how to deal with that. Instead, they're just saying, Well, don't put your, you know, like for here's one of the things a lot of people would be like, Well, the answer is just to put your socks in the hamper instead of on the floor. And I'm like, but what if I have no awareness of when my socks leave my feet, right? Like, I literally don't know when I take them off. It's just something that happens. And so when the answer is, don't do that, and I can't not do that, then it feels like I'm hopeless, right? Like, okay, then that's where the shame comes in. Like, so I have answers. I'm like, Well, I'm never going to be the one to just always know when socks are leaving my feet. But I can do a five minute pickup. I can do a focused five minutes where I go around and I'm looking for things that I haven't done yet, and I pick up the socks and I put them in the hamper. The more often that I do that, the more likely it is that I am going to notice as I'm taking them off that, oh, if I put this here, I won't have to do that later, right? But I think it's that just, just do it. You know, one of the things I, you know, I train declutter coaches, and I'm, like, we don't use the word just, there's no, like, just get rid of it just this, because it feels more complicated than that for the person who really, really struggles with clutter.

34:08
I think it's really interesting because, you know, we're talking about a sort of, in some ways, a lack of awareness of things that are considered to be the norm in inverted commas, like just picking up your socks, just doing this, just doing a tidy up. But what we are hyper aware of is the judgment that comes our way. And so we may not see the socks, but we hear the little quips, the little mean comments and all that kind of stuff. So we are hyper aware of those with somebody, oh, why don't you just think about this? Or, Oh, I could help you with that, or, you know, all of those kind of things. So we're hyper aware of the judgment, aren't we, but it's actually the doing that's difficult. So it's, it's really, really interesting. And, you know, I think that kindness to yourself, whether that comes from spirituality or not, is the starting point. You know, we talked before about validation and and then kindness and starting from like, Okay, I'm going to draw a line under the sand. I know that I'm not that good at that. But I'm going to really try to do, to do something about that. Do you know what I mean? And you have to start by taking that lack of kindness to yourself and that negative self talk out, I think. And that's, you know, where having a spiritual or religious side of you can help you a little, because you've got somebody else that you can kind of talk to about this, right?

35:23
Yeah, yeah. And I think just separating these out that's, that's really the issue is, like separating this out for being a spiritual issue, like, it's not a spiritual issue that there's socks on your floor. It's just not, yeah, you know, it's just how your brain works. And let's take the shame away, because when we have that shame, it often gets mixed up in the spiritual side of things, right? Like, okay, well, if I'm feeling ashamed about this, then I must be missing something spiritually. And it's like, no, let's take those things separate. Let's have this conversation, right? Let's, let's talk about it, and let's talk about what actually does matter versus this, and how to actually fix this. The thing that does drive you crazy, because, like, I'm never saying Jesus doesn't care about your messy house, so don't worry about your messy house, right? Like, I feel like I've earned the credibility to say that by my other three books, right? Like I have spent my life figuring out how to get my house under control, keep it under control, and teaching others how to do that. So this isn't a an excuse to not worry about it. Instead, it's a freedom to not make it a spiritual issue,

36:28
right? Okay, and so do you think that has it been helpful for you to have spirituality and God to turn to when you've struggled?

36:38
Yeah, I mean, every it's everything to me, right? Like, that's, that's the thing too, is people who do follow me, they know that it, you know, my spiritual life is, is everything to me. And so, yes, it's part of everything. But at the same time, it is not a spiritual failure. And I think that understanding of realizing this is not a spiritual failure, it's just how I am, is the freedom to go, Okay, I have complete love and acceptance from God as I am right, like because of what he's already done for me, right? So that love and acceptance that I have is the freedom to say I can work on this stuff without worrying about it being, you know, the spiritual pressure on it as well.

37:26
Yeah, so tell us a little bit about the content and the structure of the book. What can people expect from it? Dana, so

37:33
the first half is really just diving into the things that make you think that cleanliness is next to godliness, right? Like is, you know the the Proverbs, 31 woman. I do not know if you're don't know if you're familiar with that, but she's this woman in Proverbs who is described. And there are a lot of people who are like me that struggle in their homes, that are scared to even read that chapter, right? Because they're like, she's supposed to be perfect, and she's super busy all the time, and blah, blah, blah, and so you're scared to read that chapter, because you feel like it's just going to make me feel bad about myself. Well, it never talks about how organized she was, like, doesn't talk about how clean her house was, you know. So we dive into that. We talk about what Jesus actually says about cleanliness, you know, like, two different things that I try to, like, take this thing that maybe you've heard and assumed that it was a reason to feel ashamed about your house, and let's just dive into it, and then the second half is really just like, you know, the the process of decluttering that I have had the opportunity to think about more than the average person, right? Like, you know, it's your life. You talk about it all the time, because I think about those things, the things that I've come to understand more you know about God, because of this struggle that I have that causes me to think about this more, you know, which, like, for example, you know, God is light. That's one of the images in the Bible. You know that, that God uses light to, you know, show who he is, or whatever. And I, as someone who struggles in my home, you know, I have a little more understanding of the power of light to clean, right? Like, if you open up a suitcase that you forgot your bathing suit was in there. What do y'all call bathing suits? Yeah, swimming costumes. Swimming costumes. You forgot that those were in there and and it stinks, and it's grow, you know, the suitcase is disgusting smelling or whatever, and that sense of shame, right? Like, you may have never experienced that, but the people like me have all experienced that, you know, like something my mother, I mean, when I

39:35
said I was organized, then let's not overstate it, like, Do you know what I mean? So I'm kind of like, as long as it's, as long as I can find it in a drawer, that's good enough for me, certainly not meticulous, organized person, but kind of like to find what I want to find. So Ingrid, on the other hand, is much more of down the organized route. So I feel like I'm kind of selling myself as something that's really good, when actually, yeah, you're not the case at all. But, yeah, yeah, but,

39:57
but you know what I mean? Like, there's that. There. I've, I've experienced that where I know people who are like, how would you ever let that happen? You know? Like, but I'm like, I packed for a Thing. Thought I was going to put that thing right in the washing machine as soon as I got home, and never thought about it again for three months, you know. And so then it the next time I go to pack something in that suitcase, it's disgusting, smelling, whatever. And the realization that the best way to deal with that is to open up that suitcase and put it in the sunshine, right? Like that's actually the best way to deal with that. Like it doesn't involve effort on my part. It's just a matter of exposing it to Sunshine. And I'm like, okay, so God is light, my exposure to him just by learning more about God through the Bible. It's like, it removes that stank basically, you know, like, and so, and it's this images. So for the second half of the book, I go through different imagery that I get to understand more. I have the opportunity to understand more because of the struggle, which then therefore helps me be, if not, excited about having this struggle. I'm much more okay with it, because I'm like, You know what? This can be used in my life to understand spiritual things that I didn't understand before?

41:15
It sounds really fascinating, donor, and I bet you're really delighted to have been able to explore this part of decluttering and organizing that you've never been able to do before, right? It's bringing it. Do you think it's, do you think it's your core audience that we are going to be the readers of the book? Or do you think it's going to take people to, you know, what do you what do you hope for the book? Yeah,

41:37
I don't. I don't really know. I'm very open. I have very open hands to Okay, God, what do you want to do with this book? I don't know. I just felt the, I don't want to say pressure in a negative way, but it was very important to me to write it right, because it is the core thing of me, and I don't want to not share that right. And so it's like, okay, it was kind of a moment. I remember where I was when the idea for this book and the title and everything came to me. And I honestly, my reaction was, okay, okay, I need to write about that. I need to share this thing that's so important to me, and I get to share it according to, you know, this platform that I've built right like, is it, in a way, it's basically just this messiness issue is an example to help share what God's grace means. That's basically, you know, what it is.

42:35
All those years, sorry, Dana, all those years ago when you were kind of started to do a kind of test blog, or whatever you called it at the beginning. Did you ever imagine that you would be here now, four books later, and with all your podcast content and all your fantastic courses and teachings and your communities, that you would be where you are today?

42:53
No, not about this. Not at all. I mean, I I had lots of other ideas of things that I wanted to write about. I wanted to write to encourage women, you know, like I'm really passionate about, about, you know, encouraging women in our lives and what we're doing. I just never in a million years would have thought that this would be the thing I would be writing about, you know. But I think what I've realized is the real, true encouragement comes when people are just honest and stop pretending, right? Like that's basically it, you know, like I needed to be honest, and that was the reason why I didn't start writing about other things, because I felt like I would have to hide my house, you know. And and it's just in me that I don't like to hide anything, and so I couldn't get started writing about other things because of fear of what, you know, people finding out what my house looked like. So I was like, oh, I'll just write about that. And then it turned into this, and it's actually so much more fun, because it's just, I get to be completely honest and and that's so much more rewarding, right? Than trying to hide anything,

44:00
yeah? And that's all that you can be and so well, I want to thank you hugely for coming on the vehicle to hub podcast. We're so excited to have you here. Dana, of course, has got her own incredible podcast. It's been going for how many episodes, Dana,

44:12
I think I'm in the 430 something at this point.

44:16
Wow. So pop over listen to Dana's podcast. The slob comes clean. Obviously, you've got other books as well, which will pop into the show notes. Really, really enjoyed our conversation today. I feel like I'm in the presence of decluttering royalty here. So it's very exciting for us as well here. So thank you so much for sharing. I think it's a really interesting topic. It's one that I've never ever explored in all of my years of decluttering. So I'm really interested to talk to you about it. Thank you so much for being on the podcast. Is there anything else that you'd like to share with us?

44:50
Dana, I don't think so. No, you did a great job.

44:54
Thank you so much, and we will see you all next week. You.

45:02
Thanks so much for listening to the declutter hub podcast. Don't forget to subscribe to us in your podcast player so you don't miss an episode and we'll see you next week.
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Episode 377 – Photographs, memories and decluttering with member Sabine

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