A photograph of a woman - Zoë Kim - who is in her kitchen, holding a mug and smiling it the camera
Episode 294 – Minimalism with Zoë Kim

Does the term minimalism leave you running for the hills? In today's podcast I’m chatting to Zoë Kim, author of Minimalism for Families and the voice behind Instagram’s Raising Simple. She and her family have lived a minimalist lifestyle for 13 years now, so who better to chat to than Zoë about all things minimalism?
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Transcript of this podcast episode
00:00
Does the term minimalism leave you running for the hills? In today's podcast I'm chatting to so we can author of minimalism for families and the voice behind Instagrams racing simple. She and her family have lived a minimalist lifestyle for 13 years now. So who better to chat to than Zoe about all things? minimalism?

00:33
You're listening to the declutter podcast, bringing you tried and tested no nonsense tips and advice from the leading experts decluttering and organizing your home. Now here's your host, Ingrid Jansen.

00:55
Hello, and welcome, listeners. I'm Ingrid. If you're new to the declutter hub podcast, you're so welcome. What you'll find is that we try and find the fun factor in the serious business of decluttering. And if you've been here for a while, you know exactly what we mean. So thank you so much for listening. If you'd like to get involved in conversations related to this podcast, it all takes place in our free Facebook group. So come and join our lovely, warm and supportive community. Go to declutter help.com. Forward slash group to find out more.

01:30
Well, thank you so much for having me. We're hearing grid. I'm very excited.

01:34
I know. Thank you so much for coming on the show. I mean, I feel I feel very lucky today interviewing you because of course, you are married to the wonderful Matt Baxter that we have interviewed her on this podcast before and he said, Ingrid Zhou is the best person to talk to about minimalism. So here I am. Yeah,

01:58
yeah, it's I started, as you said, and, you know, doing this that started this lifestyle 13 years ago, and back then there wasn't, you know, Instagram accounts about it. There wasn't there wasn't really much of, you know, any blog to follow. So. So

02:17
why is Zoe that when people hear the word minimalism, they're like, oh, they react quite negatively to weight. So what's happened there?

02:27
Yeah, I'm really glad that you're asking that question. Because it's definitely 100% True. It's also a sure way to, for me, if I say, oh, yeah, I live a minimalist lifestyle. That's a sure way for me to never be invited over to their house. Because everybody assumes that I live this just perfect. Bare, white. You know, probably maybe I'm depriving myself I think a lot of people have this, you know, perception that minimalism means going without. And so I think they get hung up on that. But what I like to, you know, highlight is that there's minimalism as a lifestyle, and then there's minimalism as an aesthetic. So one is, you know, design. And then the other one is, hey, let's get rid of the, you know, at tops that we're not wearing anymore, because we really only wear 20%. Yeah,

03:27
yeah. You know what, I don't think you have to be a minimalist. If I tell people I'm a professional organizer, they're like, Oh, are you coming, coming to my house to judge me, but all the stuff, I'm like, I'm just visiting. I'm free. I'm not working at the moment. And thank you for inviting me. I'm just glad I'm, you know, I'm out of my office, and I'm allowed to go to somebody else's house. So honestly, no judgement here. But I think because of what we do people think we have nothing in our house and we are just, you know, constantly judging other people for the stuff to have, which is not true at all. No,

03:59
definitely not. In fact, I feel like I'm one of the most. So non judgmental, like, you know, I don't know if you're familiar with the Myers Briggs. Yes, personality, you know, the 16 different personality types. So I'm an ENFP, which is, which is pretty much one of the least judgmental personality types out there. I want everyone I want to help everybody explore their best, you know, and what that means for them.

04:25
Yeah. So let's then go back to what is minimalism? According to Zoe Kim, because I think when you Google it, probably you'll find lots of there but for you, what does minimalism mean? Minimalism

04:41
is just about getting rid of everything that isn't helping me live the life I want and need right now. Yeah, that's that's it. So, you know, I'm not going to get rid of my couch. I'm not going to get rid of my dining room table. I'm not going to get rid of all my clothes like, I'm not you know, And I designed this modern farmhouse that we live in. So I do have an appreciation for beautiful things as well. Yeah.

05:12
So and you don't have a lot of people I think maybe sometimes think you can only be a minimalist if you've got like, no kids and no partner and no real nothing. There's like seven people at your house, right? Or nine people. How many of them together? Yeah.

05:27
Nine, two adults and seven kids ages 10 to just turned 18? Wow. Yes. So one girl, she's 18 year old, but no, and that that's the thing. And you don't have to be a certain way to or you know, a certain type, or have a certain size family or a certain type of home, or different, you know, a certain color of walls to live a minimalist lifestyle, it truly is just getting rid of the things that are not actually helping you live your best life right now. Yeah.

06:02
And that is probably then different for everybody, right? Because everybody has a different way of viewing what their best life is.

06:10
Exactly, exactly. So it's about you know, how's your space functioning for you? Can you get dressed in the morning and not have decision fatigue? And because I have decision fatigue, if I have too many things. So, okay,

06:25
and where do you then see minimalism being different than decluttering was I read your book, I'm going to show the book now to our if you're watching on YouTube, I've read your book. And if you want to, I've made lots of notes and things and highlighted stuff. Because for me, this was a working book. Normally, I don't highlight things in books, just if people are in a panic now watching this. But of course, this is gonna be a working book. And so I've read your book and a lot of it in your book is very, very similar to what Leslie and I talked about in the quartering so what's the difference between them in your opinion between men and minimalism and just having a decluttered home,

07:07
I so there's, I could give you a lot of answers to this. This is kind of hard to pin down one. But you know, decluttering is about getting rid of things. And minimalism is about finding out how much less you actually need. So decluttering is like, hey, let's just go through and get rid of some of this stuff. Minimalism is like, Okay, let's take some principles and some, some boundaries. And let's take let's shave your stuff down another, you know, few levels here, and actually figure out like, wait, I wasn't using any of that stuff. And it was kind of weighing me down, and I was spending too much money. So decluttering is, I feel like more on just the surface level aesthetic, you know, function. And then minimalism is more of discovering how much less you actually, you know, you don't need I feel like minimalism for me is a filter. Right? Okay. decluttering is an act like it's, it's, you know, you're doing it, you're decluttering but minimalism is something that you can apply to basically every decision you make, what are you gonna bring into your home? You know, what are you going to, you know, how are you going to help your kids decide what they can, what they're going to keep and what they're going to get rid of. It's all those mindset shifts that happened with minimalism. That don't necessarily happen with decluttering. Because you can declutter all day long, and you could just bring stuff back in. Yeah. And that's where minimalism comes in. It's a filter on your life.

08:45
Right? So it's not only the items, but it's also the way you spend your time perhaps the way you spend your money, what's important in life, so in your opinion, minimalism is kind of an extra level deeper than decluttering. decluttering goes on, about a lot of in your opinion about the stuff while in your opinion. Minimalism is like, Okay, I want to look at everything as a whole and kind of end, but it's probably normally starts with the stuff, doesn't it? It does,

09:14
it always starts with this stuff, right? We gotta start. You know, think of it like an onion when you declutter. I don't know if you've heard this analogy before. But yeah,

09:22
I have another question in mind First to ask you, but I think I think what I would like to know now is why did you start with minimalism? Did something happen? Did you kind of go like, Oh, I've seen the light. This is what we need to do. So what what happened? What Why did you start with minimalism?

09:41
So I wanted to start wasting less food in the kitchen. So I was doing some you know, I was on Google and whatnot. What 14 years ago? Yeah, and I came across baya JOHNSON I don't know if you're, are you familiar with Okay, so Zero Waste, like the Zero Waste person in the whole niche of zero waste. And I came across an article and she had, you know, two, she has two kids, and they lived at home with her at the time, assuming they're older now. And I saw photos of her home. And it was definitely much more minimalist and extreme. But when I saw photos of her home, and just hearing the way that she was living, that's when literally I had that moment that was like, Oh, my goodness, freedom. This stuff is weighing me down. I had two kids at the time, three and five, or two and four, and right kids stuff, life, trying to just keep up with everything. And I was overwhelmed.

10:48
And that was your first kind of array into. So the whole idea was, first I want to have less food waste. That's how it started.

10:55
Yeah, that's how it started. So and then what happened. And I, my then husband at the time, so he was in the military. And so he would deploy all the time. And it just so happened, I had to make a move. We had to we were moving houses, and he was deployed. And it was one of these moves that we decided, so it wasn't covered by the military. And so I was packing up our stuff. And I mean, I was like, What are these phone cords for this is from when I was like five? Like, we don't even have a phone that this could work with? Where are we keeping all this stuff? And I started to think to myself, geez, I'm getting a babysitter so that I can pack up this stuff that I've we've never even touched? You know, this isn't what I want to be doing with my time. So that's when I really started to start shedding all the clutter.

11:51
And did you have a certain rhyme or reason to it? Or were you just going through random cupboards and drawers kind of going? What are we not backing? no

12:01
rhyme or reason? Because there was no like, there weren't really any blogs, you know, and I was, you know, I actually didn't follow a lot of blogs, either. I wasn't really an online person, but there so there was no, you know, strategies to really look up. I think probably the first person website I came across would be Joshua Becker at becoming minimalist. But that was I feel like a couple years later, so yeah, I just started going to wherever I felt motivated. You know, and that brings me to the one of the most popular questions is where should I start? You know, somewhere with no sentimental small area that you feel motivated, that you feel that most motivated to tackle?

12:46
Yeah. And what's your husband on the your then husband? Was he on board? I mean, did they come home one day and go? Where's gonna? What's your

12:56
wedding or Declutter? Or, I mean, I didn't declutter his personal stuff, you know, but he was pretty, he was pretty chill about, you know, it didn't really affect him. Nothing I got rid of like, wasn't like, I got rid of our sofa or something. And he had no place to sit. So he was pretty, and that's probably part of the culture as well in in military families and communities. They're gone so much. I mean, he was gone more than he was home. Yeah. So you know, that can be very different, right? For couples, families that they're both there every single day. Sure.

13:35
Yeah. Sure. So when you decided to embark on your minimalism journey, and you kind of started with the first layer of decluttering, actually, right, so kind of going through the stuff and first kind of looking through, okay, I don't need this. Why have I got this in my house? All of those things. So did you ever then use numbers to determine how much how many you wanted to keep off something? Because when I read your book, there were kind of like, we've only got two bedsheets and we've got like 11 towels for seven people? And was that from the start something or were you first like I want to get rid of that first layer of clutter and then the more your minimalist mindset developed you then started to go actually we can whittle it down much further than we even thought was possible.

14:30
Exactly. I did not start out with numbers I'm actually not a number person. Sometimes people message me and they're like, how many shoes do you have? And this is just such a personal like subjective not personal and you can't ask me that but personal because you're going to be doing different things. I mean, I don't know maybe you hike and you ski and there's all these other reasons that you're gonna have different or you know, more or less than I am but so I did not start out with some, you know, prescribed number or formula I just went to, I haven't used this, or you know what? This top doesn't even look good on me. I'm not going to try to keep putting it on anymore because I don't feel good in it. Yeah. Yeah. So I just did that. And so it was a lot of trial, you know, experimenting through the layers. Okay.

15:20
And did and did you ever get frustrated then when you were trying to get less? Were you frustrated by the process? How long it took? Or were you disappointed? Maybe what yourself how many you had in the first place? What were like the blocks that you got your us

15:40
really good questions, Ingrid. I mean, so I didn't really get frustrated decluttering because I didn't have anything to compare it to. I didn't have Instagram with all these accounts, you know, saying, Oh, that making me feel like, well, this is where I should be. Now there was nothing for me to look at. I mean, I saw baya Johnson's, you know. But hers is definitely more minimalist than I was gonna go. I just the whole freedom light bulb came on there. So I didn't have anything to really compare it to. So I didn't feel frustrated. I just felt like, wow, this is amazing. I am getting rid of stuff that I'm not using. And I, it feels so good. Like, I feel lighter. And then your second question was,

16:28
like, if you were disappointed with yourself with the volumes that you had, definitely,

16:32
definitely, I always say, you know, we're really excited. We're like, Yes, I'm going to do this. I'm going to get rid of stuff. And then let's just say you go into your kitchen, you're going to declutter your kitchen, and you start taking things out of a couple cupboards. Yeah. And then the reality sets in, like, wow, okay, I have more stuff than I realized I had, why did I do this? Why did I waste this much money, and it can really feel defeating? I think that's something that maybe myself and other people in this community don't talk about. Enough is that there is that layer or two, that you're gonna pull stuff out? And it's gonna feel like you're not making any progress? But you are, because you started?

17:23
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I think it's definitely I think, like decluttering is, we always talk about the decluttering journey here and the declutter up in the declutter our podcasts. And I think minimalism is a similar journey as well, right? You can't go from north to to 60. In three days, you have to take your time, and you have to also sometimes, you know, berate the loss of things and the time spent on it, and the money spent on it, and the the energy spent on it by you know, keeping it and logging it and maintaining it and washing it and all of those things that you need to do when you've got a lot of stuff. And there's, I think, no right or wrong level of amount of stuff in people's houses. I think it's more like, what do you feel happy with yourself? Yes. And what makes you feel that you're getting the most out of your own home in your own time and your own energy? But I think we both agree, are in agreement, that having too much stuff can read his heart is hard. Yeah.

18:28
I think, you know, we're not we're not really made or built, or however you want to say it to manage all of this stuff. And just with the way society in our culture, and, you know, we could go get free stuff from freecycle. Like, we could acquire things. It's not the depression. Yeah. And so it's really hard. We have to put a filter on on it and say no, even two perfectly good things. Yes. You can have a lot of, you know, too many perfectly good things.

18:58
Yeah. Yeah. So you mentioned you would love to also share with me the importance of how your perspective changes when you decluttering Can you tell me a little bit more about that?

19:09
Yeah, I mean, we we've kind of already touched on, you know, some of that where you, you know, you start out and you let's just say your first your first Why do you do guys talk about your why, you know, yeah, so talking about, you know, your why maybe, you know, it's it's because I just want to have a aesthetically pleasing, organized kitchen, you know, and then it's like, Well, wait, I want to maybe have more time to cook with my family. And I want dishes to be more manageable. You know, I want cleanup to be more manageable, and then it kind of can shift to well wait, I want to spend less time cleaning so that we can go to the park sooner. So it starts your perspective can start shifting from Oh, I just want to have an Oregon nice kitchen and and I want it to look great to wait. I want to spend more time with people. Right? I want to invest in my relationships, less, you know more and my stuff less. Yeah,

20:12
yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Let's go for a quick break. I have a lot more questions. So I'm glad we are only at the halfway point listener. So let's go for a quick break. And more with Zoe soon. Hi, everyone. Welcome back. We're chatting to Zoe all things minimalism. And we've before the break, we were talking about how your perspective can change. Right, Zoe?

20:35
Yes. One thing I really want to emphasize is that a lot of people see minimalism as like a loss, you're going without you're living without. But really, it's a trade. Right, you're trading your excess stuff for more time, more peace, more financial freedom. So I think that that's important. It's not it's not a loss, it's a trade.

20:59
Right? And do people get stuck along the way in achieving this? Because, you know, you might not immediately see the benefit of the space that you're creating, and then it can become really a roadblock. And it

21:17
definitely, I think one of the stumbling blocks is that people get in and they start to declutter, and, you know, let's just, let's just say there's seven layers to decluttering. Okay. They only do two layers. Yeah. And so they get in there, they go through this process. They're, they're overwhelmed, but they declutter some things, they make a few trips to the donation place, and then they go use their space, and it still kind of feels the same. You know, maybe there's a few less things. But it wasn't drastic enough. They didn't reduce enough items. So I think that that they need to keep going further.

21:59
Yeah. Yeah. Because the benefits that are laying just in that level below, are outweigh what the stuff brings them.

22:11
Definitely. But we don't realize that, like we don't, you know, right, you don't know what it actually feels like to be a parent until you're a parent, like, you don't realize the weight of your stuff until you let it go, then that's when you look back and you say, Wow, I knew it felt heavy in that time. But now I can really see how heavy it was because I feel lighter.

22:34
Yeah, yeah. Now, you've not been on this journey alone. You have you know, you have lots of kids as well. I mean, it combined now seven, but before that, when you wrote the book, I think for so how did you get those kids on board? Because I think that's the $1 million question that everybody that like she wrote a book minimalist for families. I mean, I'm on board. I'm on board with Zoey. But how do I get everybody else in my house? On board?

23:01
Right? Yes. So I will, I will say, you know, so I have four kids of my own minor ages 10 to 18. When I started, I had two, as I said, they were you know, five, and three. So Young, you really have an advantage. Everybody knows, if you have kids, take care of kids. When they're younger, it's so much easier to get them on board with new ideas. So I did this, though, through positive conversations, right. So not, you know, never punishing shaming, or, you know, dictating, like, you know, you you have too much stuff you have to get you have, you know, like an, you know, a negative, because if you want to get somebody on board with something, you really need to be positive about it. Right. And you want to empower your kids and make them feel like they're making choices as well. Yeah, so one of the ways I would do that is I would just designate a space like, Hey, this is this is, you know, a large basket in your closet. This is the room that we have, could you choose your favorite stuffed animals that you can just that the ones that are just going to fit in there? And hey, do you have any friends? Or can we donate the other ones to somebody? Who doesn't have any so yeah, yeah, yeah, there was a documentary. It's like a photo documentary. I'm trying to remember his name. It might be William Morris, but it's called where children sleep. So it's a book on Amazon. He just came out with a new addition. But he also has a website and I it might be 100 bedrooms, or maybe it's less than that. But I have shown this to my kids periodically for years. It is the child from all different countries and their bedroom. And it was just really eye opening to see how different people But live it, you know, because it's really easy to get stuck in this bubble.

25:05
So lots of positive reinforcements. Yes. giving praise. And I think probably also really showing the benefits, right and having less stuff like you said before, you know, because we can tidy up quicker, we can now do something fun and experience a fun thing. Exactly.

25:23
So I also I should have mentioned this in the beginning, but I would ask them their opinion about Hey, guys, like, you know, my daughter would be in the kitchen with me. And I'm just being like, wow, we have like, four wooden spoons, and they're basically all the same. Yeah. You know, which ones do you think I should get rid of? So I asked her about something that's not hers. So that, you know, that's me mirror, I'm gonna mirror the behavior that I want her to do. You know. So that was really helpful. And then I would do it with rewards like, Hey, guys, you know, helped me declutter the living room. And then afterwards, we can have movie night with popcorn and like a tent. And so there was this motivation, you know?

26:10
Yeah. Yeah. Lovely. So you said Indeed, when you started, you kind of started like, wherever you felt there was too much stuff. Looking back now, and if you if somebody comes to you and say, Okay, I've got a lot of stuff. I love this whole minimalism thing. Where do I start? But would you advise now would it be like, just follow whatever thing you do that you met, you find out a certain path works really well for you, or certain areas work better? Without

26:41
knowing the person or their home? I would probably suggest the bathroom. Okay? The reason why is because it typically has the least amount of sentimental items, and it's smaller, and more manageable. So hopefully, you could actually complete it. That's, that's something that I think is really important is to actually be able to complete it. So that you get that win. And you feel like you accomplish something. Yeah,

27:08
yeah, we wait for us the bathroom is indeed the second room, we always say start in the kitchen, because it has got smaller cupboards. Yeah, although the room is normally bigger, because of the smaller cupboards you can go, I've done this coverage. Same idea, right, starting small, and you can go I've done this covered, and it can always be ticked off the list, and then you move on to the next thing. So I think that's, that's fantastic. You talk in your book about your four books method. I thought that's interesting. I would like to know a little bit more about that.

27:41
Yeah. So some people do like the four box method, you know, the so you get you get four boxes, or one's gonna be trash and then donate. And so I like to use one of those boxes as items to be put away in the correct place. Yeah. Because inevitably, people put things in the room and they don't really belong there. Yeah. So that that method can be really helpful for some people just kind of going through and you know, setting up a station, basically. Yeah.

28:12
So you basically set up a sorting station and you go through a drawer and go, Okay, this is to be put away in the right place. This I want to keep this on at the trash or recycle whatever. And I want to sell you also mentioned you also mentioned uh, not sure books, and I'm interested by you're not sure books.

28:32
So this is where I would go back to the bathroom as well. Because when I really want, if I think someone's really ready to kind of do a little bigger of a jump, right? So they want to go declutter their bathroom, they haven't decluttered it much before. Sure. Okay, do the first couple of layers, you know, expired things trash, you know, the two other bottles of shampoo that you didn't like, and you're never going to use that kind of stuff. But then let's do an experiment. And this could be the not sure box, okay? Take everything that you have not used in the last six months that you really don't need, you know, put it in a box, set it aside at a site and then use your bathroom like that without those things for the next I mean, I would say a month. And let's see if you actually need to go back into that box and how much easier it is to get ready like to get ready. This is a good way to test out reaching those deeper levels of minimum minimalism, right simplicity and a space without, you know, feeling like you're you're making a mistake or something because, you know, everybody goes through the just in case and I paid good money for that and they gave it to me and Okay, let's just put all that aside, put it in a box, and live your best life in this room right now for the next month. Okay.

30:09
Nice. Nice. Okay, interesting because I always think, oh, not sure box. That sounds tricky. But now you've explained it to me. I think this is really when you have done a lot of your decluttering. Already. This is almost kind of testing yourself and kind of what's my comfort zone? Yeah. Why What? What am I really missing? And what actually ever actually gone? Oh, yeah, I really could have done that. And to read it kind of go that step further? Probably?

30:38
i Yes, definitely. Because if you think about it, the way that I think about it anyway, is if you leave the notch that you're decluttering a cabinet in your kitchen, if you leave that not sure item in your cabinet, you're not using it still likely, because that's why you weren't sure, probably. And you're not feeling the benefits of a truly like simplified space of items that are serving you because you're leaving it in there. So at least if you do just have this not sure box and you test it out, you get to feel the benefits, and then realize whether you even missed it or not. I mean, I would say so many people weren't we get rid of stuff, and we don't even remember it.

31:24
Yeah, we remember, that's it's true. That's definitely true. Now, how do you maintain minimalism because we are in a world where we get completely bombarded by advertisements and the big companies wanting us to buy more and more and more and more and more. You in the house with nine people. I mean, maintaining minimalism is must be hard.

31:53
I think it's hard in the beginning, right? But then like all things, you know, minimalism and that that like that mindset and that lifestyle. Yeah, for me is like a muscle. Yeah. Right. So lift the small weights, do the declutter things that don't have a lot of sentimental value and then work up. Yeah. And it, it does get easier. I have a chapter in my book that house guidelines, and I like to say guidelines instead of you know, rules or because everybody's different, you know, but one of them is one in one out. So if you're at your max, you know, capacity, like my son right now, he's my oldest son is 15. And he really loves cologne that he buys with his own money, but he has five right now. By the way, apparently, this is a thing. He's got cologne for every season. That's apparently I don't wear perfume anymore. So so this is really funny. But this is me, you know, having conversations. He's like, I'm thinking about this one mom, like, what are you will be at the store? What do you think of this one? And I was like, Well, how many do you have already? And he's like, Well, I mean, I have five, but this one's really good. And I was like, well, didn't you tell me you already have one for every season to like, so I think you need to use up what you have. You should use up what you have. Don't spend any more money on them. And he'll and he'll listen, you know. So because I'm not, I'm not like dictating. Got it. Right, teenagers more of like a coaching. Yeah, you know,

33:29
they need to find their own way and kind of go what, what is enough for them? And is it worth the money they spend on it? And will they use it and really go off? And all of those things? It's the it's the lessons that they need to learn themselves as well. Right.

33:41
Yeah, exactly. Right. And that's what's so hard about parenting. Not that we're having a conversation about parenting, but my goodness, yeah. Yeah. And so I think the minimalism and the lifestyle, you know, the perspective changes. It's always changing, you know, but you can always apply it to wherever you're at whatever stage of life you're at, you can apply these principles. Yeah.

34:09
I would like to share with you my favorite quote of your book. Oh, you said, we can declutter all day long. But if we don't develop habits that keep the clutter out, we'll find our home filling up again, before we know it's yes. And I think it's so true, isn't it? I think, you know, Leslie and I speak a lot about you know, can you know, we love decluttering we love you know, for us, the decluttering is the main part, the organizing and defining the nice books for it. That's, that's smaller, but for us, the decluttering is really important. But we also say, if you don't control what comes into your house, yeah, you know, you just you need to have a throughput of things, but if constantly keeps things keep coming in, you will have to declutter all the time as well. So you have to bring those levels down, more needs to leave. So the volumes inside your house go down, and you can really start to enjoy the space. But that, you know, that takes time. And I think I think we can be accustomed now to really have quick fixes, right for everything. But when you call your staff, it's, it's, it's been there for a long time. It needs that mindset change that you talk about as well.

35:27
Yeah, and that's why I think experiments like packing all of it up in one category, you know, for a month really helps you figure that out faster of what you actually could live without you don't miss it. You can't even remember everything you put in there.

35:42
Right. Right. Yeah. Interesting. One other thing that I would like to talk to you about is under scheduling, because I found that very interesting. You said one of the things we really have are doing now, it's actually under scheduling. And I think in the busy life we deal in we try to cram more and more and more in our diaries in our time. We don't really cram stuff in our house, but we also cram stuff in in our diaries in our schedule and everything. So why, what what how was the under scheduling really helped you?

36:14
It has given me that actual time to be able to simplify my home and adopt these mindset, you know, shifts and strategies, because I think that's actually one of the hurdles about why people can't get their homes decluttered. They don't even have time. They don't have time, everything just keeps coming in coming in piling on top of them. They don't actually even have the bandwidth to spend a couple of weekends. Yeah.

36:39
Yeah. Because there's so many extracurricular activities, appointments, social engagements. Yeah,

36:47
we really try not to over commit. And by when I say over commit, that means leave whitespace in our calendar. That doesn't mean Oh, schedule two events in the same hour? Or, you know, back to back or something. It means leave whitespace Yeah, yeah.

37:06
Have you found? I know, you're gonna say yes. But I want to ask this question anyway. Has it completely changed the way you see everything?

37:17
Literally, everything. I mean, relationships, time, I mean, everything. It's amazing how many you know, and this is a privilege, and I'm thankful and but I had, there's so many good, amazing things that I need to say no to.

37:35
Yeah. So you say no ace is something that you do on a regular basis to make sure that you protect your own whitespace and diary.

37:47
My own sanity? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, because it's overwhelming. I mean, when we all we have a lot of kids too. So we really need to be careful that we're not spreading ourselves thin. And with so many distractions and just stimuli everywhere we I mean, it's, you know, it's a real struggle.

38:07
Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much for this conversation, Zoe, I've really, really appreciated it. I've really enjoyed it. I'm not a minimalist person, but I do completely see where you're where you're coming from. And I do enjoy less as well. And I'm always very, very mindful of things that come into my home. And, yeah, I always say I completely agree that it's so important to spend your time wisely we have, that's the only thing we have such a limited amount of, you know, stuff and money and all of those things, you know, that that ebbs and flows and but time is just limited. And I think we sometimes can be so busy with being busy and doing the living that we forget, actually, this is it. And I don't want to go too deep on it. But we have to really enjoy it. Because time just goes so quickly.

39:11
It's our most right precious resource. And it does go so quickly, and we can't get it back. But what I wanted one other thing I wanted to mention was that I am not a naturally organized person. I don't like to make lists. I don't like to count things. I don't even really like to fold my clothes that I keep in my drawer. So I'm kind of like a 90 percenter. Like, I put it away, it's clean, we're good. And so that's why I needed and need minimalism, because I'm not naturally an organized person. And I would not be able to function very well. Yeah, with all the stuff and I don't want to spend my whole life organizing it either. So yeah. But thank you so much for having me on here. And I hope you All found found this helpful and valuable. And if you want come over to Instagram at raising simple say hello. love to meet you there.

40:08
Thank you so much. So listeners, has this conversation make you think has Zoe's explanation of what minimalism is for is for her, kind of make you think, wow. For me, it was always kind of a scary word, but now I'm actually changing the way I feel about it. We would love for you to share that with us. Let us know in the comments. Go to declutter. hub.com. Find this episode, leave a comment or go to your podcast player and tell us we would love to know your reaction to this podcast. And thank you so much again. So for being here. Really, really fantastic to have you as a guest.

40:43
Thank you so much.

40:50
Thanks so much for listening to the declutter hop podcast. Don't forget to subscribe to us in your podcast player, so you don't miss an episode. And we'll see you next week.
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Episode 294 – Minimalism with Zoë Kim

Episode 396 – Why Resilience and Decluttering go hand in hand with Lucy Wooldridge

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Episode 391 – Hosting kids’ parties without clutter

Episode 389 – Overcoming mobility challenges when decluttering with member Rory

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